What could have saved the Jag?

[+CyranoJ]

6 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

Why not answer his question from 5 pages back then?  

 

He asked:

 

 "Do you think we've reached the pinnacle of Atari Jaguar game development? Have we hit the ceiling? Is Xenowings the best we'll get?"

 

Why do the people with the ridiculous statements and opinions always demand others prove the counter argument while never proving their own? 

 

Not playing that bullshit game.

 

"Prove me wrong!"  NO. How about you prove yourself correct?

[Lost Monkey]

3 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

Why do the people with the ridiculous statements and opinions always demand others prove the counter argument while never proving their own? 

 

Not playing that bullshit game.

What a sad response.  I can't even get my head around why you feel so defensive.  Oh well. 

[+CyranoJ]

4 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

What a sad response.  I can't even get my head around why you feel so defensive.  Oh well. 

 

Ah right, so its fine to say any old bollocks and other people have to prove you wrong. Got it.

[42bs]

On 10/17/2024 at 6:34 AM, leech said:

The Jaguar simply never had a large demo scene.  If you want some Jaguar games that 'push the limits' of the hardware, see if you can contact some of the demo scene that is still around and send them a Jaguar / JagGD.

I guess, you do not know how demo scene works as well. And a Jaguar HW is not really needed to get started. But from the feedback I get for my tiny demos: Wow, but I stick to the machine I know best.

[+Sauron]

34 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

No, and I'm not being hostile.   I didn't jump into the thread telling people what they were doing wasn't good enough, having had zero experience of what is is they are actually doing.

Bill never said that. He said that he thinks that more impressive games can be made in the future. And frankly, I'm of the same opinion, as are many others, but everyone has had to tip-toe around it for a while now in fear of getting their heads torn off when someone inevitably thinks they're shitting on the current slate of Jag homebrews or developers. 

 

If you think that more impressive games aren't possible, then let's take a step back to 20 years ago. What were the quality of Jag homebrews then? What about 15 years ago? 10 years ago? If you really look at it, you'll see a clear progression in terms of how impressive the games look and play. And CJ, let's be honest here, we can see this progression in Reboot's own games. This is NOT to say that you were a shit developer back in the beginning, because anyone with half a brain knows that's absolutely not the case. But look at what's happened in that time - you and others have improved the tools immensely, more convenient methods of playing and developing homebrews have been released, and as a result of these developments, you've created more impressive and complex games (both graphically and gameplay-wise).

 

Let me reiterate this again - no one in this thread is shitting on the current slate of homebrews or developers. This is no longer 15 - 20 years ago during the whole AA vs. JSII war when we had all of those idiots accusing the devs of making 8-bit games (especially when one of them had their own crowning achievement on the Jag being a literal port of an 8-bit game). People here are just saying that they think there are better and more impressive games on their way in the future, which is not at all an unreasonable opinion to have when we can clearly see that same progression occurring in the Jag's homebrew library from the past 20 years. If you really continue to think otherwise, I suggest stepping away from the forum for a bit to cool your head, then come back and read those posts again.

 

[42bs]

On 10/17/2024 at 6:34 AM, leech said:

The Jaguar simply never had a large demo scene.  If you want some Jaguar games that 'push the limits' of the hardware, see if you can contact some of the demo scene that is still around and send them a Jaguar / JagGD. 

Actually, if we could have released BJL a year earlier, that might have saved the Jaguar. We had some great sceners working on the Jaguar, but when we finally got the interesst of Atari for it, the Jaguar was already dying.

 

[+CyranoJ]

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Bill never said that. He said that he thinks that more impressive games can be made in the future. And frankly, I'm of the same opinion, as are many others, but everyone has had to tip-toe around it for a while now in fear of getting their heads torn off when someone inevitably thinks they're shitting on the current slate of Jag homebrews or developers.

 

I agree fully with that.  But then he defined his opinion of 'wow' as 'pushing the hardware to the limits' and quoted two games, written in C, to illustrate his point.  Following that he's changed it to 'the end result that matters' .... odd.

 

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

If you think that more impressive games aren't possible, then let's take a step back to 20 years ago. What were the quality of Jag homebrews then? What about 15 years ago? 10 years ago? If you really look at it, you'll see a clear progression in terms of how impressive the games look and play. And CJ, let's be honest here, we can see this progression in Reboot's own games.

 

That is how people improve.  I see it myself in my own work and I'm happy with it.  I certainly hope I can do better, otherwise whats the point?

 

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Let me reiterate this again - no one in this thread is shitting on the current slate of homebrews or developers. This is no longer 15 - 20 years ago during the whole AA vs. JSII war when we had all of those idiots accusing the devs of making 8-bit games (especially when one of them had their own crowning achievement on the Jag being a literal port of an 8-bit game). People here are just saying that they think there are better and more impressive games on their way in the future, which is not at all an unreasonable opinion to have when we can clearly see that same progression occurring in the Jag's homebrew library from the past 20 years. If you really continue to think otherwise, I suggest stepping away from the forum for a bit to cool your head, then come back and read those posts again.

 

You know as well as myself or anyone else here there are a vocal few 'ArseChris' types out there.  Even the JaS stream by ZPH has a  "simple sidescroller using just the 68000" comment on it.  It's repetetive, ignorant, and... after a while extremely fucking rude and annoying to any and all active devs, to the point of having extremely low tollerence to baseless, clueless comments made people people with no idea of what their are talking about.

[+Sauron]

39 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

I agree fully with that.  But then he defined his opinion of 'wow' as 'pushing the hardware to the limits' and quoted two games, written in C, to illustrate his point.  Following that he's changed it to 'the end result that matters' .... odd.

He's not wrong. You can question his choice of games all you want (hell, I'll question them with you), but what language a game is written in shouldn't matter, especially if the tools they are using are up to the task. A good C compiler in the hands of a skilled coder can give pure assembly language written by anyone a run for its money. Am I wrong about this?

 

47 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

You know as well as myself or anyone else here there are a vocal few 'ArseChris' types out there.  Even the JaS stream by ZPH has a  "simple sidescroller using just the 68000" comment on it.  It's repetetive, ignorant, and... after a while extremely fucking rude and annoying to any and all active devs, to the point of having extremely low tollerence to baseless, clueless comments made people people with no idea of what their are talking about.

Yes, I am well aware of that. But there's a difference between "I think the Jag can be made to pull off more impressive games" and "this is nothing but an 8-bit game that uses the 68000". People should be free to express an opinion in line with the former without getting shouted down or treated like dirt. Not everyone here who provides such an opinion is a troll or a completely clueless idiot, nor should they have to walk on eggshells out of fear of pissing off the active devs. Again, step away for a bit to cool down if honest opinions given in good faith are getting you so upset. 

 

 

[42bs]

On 10/16/2024 at 4:02 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

Now, with all due respect to the hard work put into Xenowings - it looks fairly fun and certainly is pleasing audio-visually - but, like I implied in my previous comment, it's not exactly a deep game or something that pushes the hardware or makes you go "wow,"  at least not me. Again, very well done, an excellent addition to the library, etc., but not at the technical level, scope, or ambition of the examples I gave.

Ok, went down the stack of post, to find the "wow" post. And clearly, you have no clue what "pushes the hardware".
And what do you mean with "a deep game"? Might be my lack of English idioms, but a shooter is a shooter. And from what I played and saw from XW is it a very well done Galaga like game.
Just an example of something which "pushes" the hardware:
 

 

So reaching HW limits can be easily reached even with 256 byte code. So where is your point?

 

[42bs]

31 minutes ago, Sauron said:

A good C compiler in the hands of a skilled coder can give pure assembly language written by anyone a run for its money.

Not sure what you mean, but a bad coder is a bad coder. If (s)he writes BASIC,C or Assembly. And I would claim that a good Assembly coder can outperform any good C coder on any vintage console. Be it 68k, ARM, PPC or MIPS based.

[Zerosquare]

I am seriously considering taking the contents of this thread and releasing it on cartridge, since you guys seem to enjoy playing it so much.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

2 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

I am seriously considering taking the contents of this thread and releasing it on cartridge, since you guys seem to enjoy playing it so much.

🤔 Can a mere Jaguar Cart contain the BITS of this thread? Might have to go with a JagCD port! 

 

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, Sauron said:

Bill never said that. He said that he thinks that more impressive games can be made in the future. And frankly, I'm of the same opinion, as are many others, but everyone has had to tip-toe around it for a while now in fear of getting their heads torn off when someone inevitably thinks they're shitting on the current slate of Jag homebrews or developers. 

 

If you think that more impressive games aren't possible, then let's take a step back to 20 years ago. What were the quality of Jag homebrews then? What about 15 years ago? 10 years ago? If you really look at it, you'll see a clear progression in terms of how impressive the games look and play. And CJ, let's be honest here, we can see this progression in Reboot's own games. This is NOT to say that you were a shit developer back in the beginning, because anyone with half a brain knows that's absolutely not the case. But look at what's happened in that time - you and others have improved the tools immensely, more convenient methods of playing and developing homebrews have been released, and as a result of these developments, you've created more impressive and complex games (both graphically and gameplay-wise).

 

Let me reiterate this again - no one in this thread is shitting on the current slate of homebrews or developers. This is no longer 15 - 20 years ago during the whole AA vs. JSII war when we had all of those idiots accusing the devs of making 8-bit games (especially when one of them had their own crowning achievement on the Jag being a literal port of an 8-bit game). People here are just saying that they think there are better and more impressive games on their way in the future, which is not at all an unreasonable opinion to have when we can clearly see that same progression occurring in the Jag's homebrew library from the past 20 years. If you really continue to think otherwise, I suggest stepping away from the forum for a bit to cool your head, then come back and read those posts again.

 

I wholly disagree! 

Firstable, nobody was treated like dirt because of being critical or having a point.

 

Maybe Bill was naive at the beginning, ok.

But look, when you start to irritate people with pure ignorance and prove me wrong stance, you STOP AND LISTEN!

However, he double downs, back Pedaled and played the victim card by making accusations.

He disrespected us from the beginning. 

 

Imagine you worked 6 years on games being more "complex than static, not deep games" , pushing and pushing.

 

Then comes some armchair expert along: " why are Jaguar homebrews not deep and  only simple Static games?"

 

Then you point him friendly at Xenowings, but he continues to be judgemental, "Galaga does not count, I set the criterias!"

 

Thats bigot, sorry.

 

 

 

 

Edited 58 minutes ago by agradeneu

[+jgkspsx]

Just to get this thread back on topic:

 

Not even God.

[+CyranoJ]

3 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Not even God.

 

No need to bring fiction into it... stick to F.act.S
 

 

[+jgkspsx]

2 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

No need to bring fiction into it... stick to F.act.S
 

 

F.AC.TS YEAH!

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

29 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I wholly disagree! 

 

😂

 

[42bs]

33 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Just to get this thread back on topic:

 

Not even God.

Steve could have made it. But then the Jaguar would not have a number but a touch pad.