What could have saved the Jag?

[alucardX]

6 hours ago, Atlantis said:

^the systen’s mascot is from the first wave of (two) games: green Skylar and/maybe also Trevor

 

For real, green Skylar is the most famous mascot character of the Jag lore. No matter what we think of the game. Also Skylar -and Trevor- are considered comical, which is typical for console mascots (think Mario).

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=zH-MXGwPbZA

 

Why wasn't she on the bridge of the Enterprise? She and Data would have got on nicely!

[Austin]

15 hours ago, pacman000 said:

Release a modem instead of a CD player. That way they could ride the dot com boom into relevancy.... for a few years. 

Didn't help the Saturn. Wouldn't have helped the Jaguar.

[Flojomojo]

The real Atari Jaguar is all the wonderful friends we made along the way. 

[+GoldLeader]

...And they've been inside us the whole time!   Oh wait!  That surely came out wrong.

 

 

[ColecoGamer]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Atari did have a mascot problem.   But they had Bentley Bear all the way back in 83 who they completely failed to capitalize on

Yes! I forgot to mention Bently!

[ColecoGamer]

11 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

mmmmhhh

 

 

sure the suitcase needs to go but the tie should stay in spite of:

 

Classic! (No pun intended). Maybe an ornery, horny crocodile in a leisure suit? Lol! 

[Jag64]

Like a lot of people, I've daydreamed and wondered about all the "what ifs" that could have fallen into place to make the Jaguar a success. Sadly, and I know this won't be popular with fans of Sam and Jack, but nothing was going to save the Jaguar from the Tramiel family. From shoving broken betas out the door for retail sales to ignoring millions of preorders in one market to focus on another one Atari had already practically lost, the company made just about every wrong decision it could. And "the company" at that point, in regard to decision making, was the Tramiels.

 

There was no overcoming the obstacle that was "Tramiel decision making." The Lynx is doing well? Crap on that and don't support it. Europe wants millions of Jaguars? Stiff that market. They made one poor logistical decision after another to hamper the hardware launch and ensure it couldn't get out of the gate. When that wasn't enough, just flat-out lie to consumers and send out doctored screenshots to media.

 

Could the Jaguar have succeeded? Easily! But the only third-party support the console had was actually just withered 2nd-party support in Europe funded by Atari. Tramiels never fostered relationships with publishers because they felt they could make more money controlling everything "soup to nuts." That is a recurring theme with them. Could have had Nine Inch Nails on Black Ice / White Noise. But the Tramiels knew they could get the same sound and buzz by doing it in-house. We know how that game ended up.

 

tl;dr The only thing that could have saved the Atari Jaguar was if Atari had been managed and led by anyone other than the Tramiel family.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jag64

[RollOut]

I've thought this one over for a while, and I do feel like all the points made so far have some validity to them. Obviously, the Jaguar suffered from "death from a thousand paper cuts" and not a single bullet.

 

While we're piling the reasons on, here's one more (I'm sure it's been brought up at some me point). I don't think Atari did themselves any favors by pushing the 64 bit thing as hard as they did. Going back through old Jag game reviews, I found that even many of the good games had a statement along the lines of "doesn't look like a 64 bit game" somewhere in there. I know it can be argued that the Jag deserves it's 64 but badge, but it also became self defeating when everyone expected the games to be 4 better than their 16 bit counterparts (especially when Jag games were way more expensive). This took all the steam out of otherwise would releases, with solid gameplay, but didn't look like the were pushing the hardware to it's limits. Maybe labeling themselves as 32 bit (which could also be argued), or better yet avoiding the whole bit wars thing all together could have helped the Jag always being held up to an unreachable standard. 

[Lostdragon]

On 3/25/2022 at 1:13 AM, Jag64 said:

Like a lot of people, I've daydreamed and wondered about all the "what ifs" that could have fallen into place to make the Jaguar a success. Sadly, and I know this won't be popular with fans of Sam and Jack, but nothing was going to save the Jaguar from the Tramiel family. From shoving broken betas out the door for retail sales to ignoring millions of preorders in one market to focus on another one Atari had already practically lost, the company made just about every wrong decision it could. And "the company" at that point, in regard to decision making, was the Tramiels.

 

There was no overcoming the obstacle that was "Tramiel decision making." The Lynx is doing well? Crap on that and don't support it. Europe wants millions of Jaguars? Stiff that market. They made one poor logistical decision after another to hamper the hardware launch and ensure it couldn't get out of the gate. When that wasn't enough, just flat-out lie to consumers and send out doctored screenshots to media.

 

 

What millions of Jaguar pre orders would those be exactly? 

 

The ones Darryl Still is supposed to told someone where out there? 

 

Again without any documented proof there was such a demand from Europe and by that European, not just UK, heads of retail, distribution etc, it's a completely unfounded claim and shouldn't be taken seriously. 

 

 

UK demand outstripped demand, of that there is little doubt, but for individuals out there to twist that into this 2.5 Million European Preorders claim, without any supporting evidence, is just plain daft. 

 

 

This seems to be the base of the claim. 

 

Is it true you could have sold 20 times the amount of Jaguars you did in the UK?

Darryl

Yeah, nightmare time. Remember we had a really limited budget, but had done an amazing job of building the hype and demand for the machine and then we just could not get supply. I heard stories about failed chip supply and all sorts, but at the sharp end all we really saw was the vitriol and anger of mothers who could not get their kids what they really wanted for Christmas, and trust me, there is no anger to compare with a protective mum! We even had the contents of someone’s dustbin dumped in our reception area in Slough!

 

 

Peter Walker was also doing Atari UK P. R for the Jaguar, I haven't seen him or Atari UK MD Bob Gleadow, ever asked about the claim, nor actually seen Still himself make it, just the above. 

 

Someone did their own creative maths I fear. 

 

 

 

Doctored screenshots existed long before the Tramiel's and the Jaguar, they've been part and parcel of the industry since it started. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

What millions of Jaguar pre orders would those be exactly? 

 

The ones Darryl Still is supposed to told someone where out there? 

 

Again without any documented proof there was such a demand from Europe and by that European, not just UK, heads of retail, distribution etc, it's a completely unfounded claim and shouldn't be taken seriously. 

 

 

UK demand outstripped demand, of that there is little doubt, but for individuals out there to twist that into this 2.5 Million European Preorders claim, without any supporting evidence, is just plain daft. 

 

 

This seems to be the base of the claim. 

 

Is it true you could have sold 20 times the amount of Jaguars you did in the UK?

Darryl

Yeah, nightmare time. Remember we had a really limited budget, but had done an amazing job of building the hype and demand for the machine and then we just could not get supply. I heard stories about failed chip supply and all sorts, but at the sharp end all we really saw was the vitriol and anger of mothers who could not get their kids what they really wanted for Christmas, and trust me, there is no anger to compare with a protective mum! We even had the contents of someone’s dustbin dumped in our reception area in Slough!

 

 

Doctored screenshots existed long before the Tramiel's and the Jaguar, they've been part and parcel of the industry since it started. 

Well said. Even going with far lower numbers, that's still assuming the UK market size all of a sudden would have been historically larger than it was. They surely missed out on some sales, but there's little reason to believe it would have made any notable impact on the overall outcome considering all of the other factors.

[Lostdragon]

15 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Well said. Even going with far lower numbers, that's still assuming the UK market size all of a sudden would have been historically larger than it was. They surely missed out on some sales, but there's little reason to believe it would have made any notable impact on the overall outcome considering all of the other factors.

I've said it before and I will say it again. 

 

If i were asked to even begin to try and get a basic understanding of just how strong a demand there was for the Jaguar in Europe, before even the UK launch, I would have to start the  research by trying to reach people like:

 

Jean Rechin Atari European Marketing Director), plus key figures from Atari France, Atari Netherlands, Atari Germany etc

 

Sources from NASCR (National Association of Specialist Computer Retailers) 

 

Sources from UK and European Distributors (SDL in case of the UK, ABC Spieispass/Rushware in case of Germany?) 

 

I would of needed to of enlisted the help of the much greater European Atari community and it would take months of painstaking research and cross checking.

 

i would also need to start trying reach heads of purchasing for likes of:Rumbelows,HMV, Calculus, GAME,Woolworths,Virgin etc in UK, Retour (France), Quelle (Germany). 

 

Yet we are still faced with a suggestion of 20X an unspecified number of machines being sold, if Atari UK had the units, being put to a single Atari UK source and hey presto, European Preorders were 2.5 Million. 

 

Sam could of given the entire initial manufacturing run to Atari UK  and it wouldn't of had any notable impact on the platforms fate, UK market so small for a start. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Jag64]

9 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Blabber

Okay. Let's toss aside the alleged rumors that Europe had pre-orders in the millions. Let's say that is a complete fabrication. Then we're left with abysmal and pathetic 3rd party relationship building. There's no getting around that. It's not hearsay. Atari tried to control things from start to finish, including in regions it lacked the personnel to control anything in.

 

What we're left with, and this was my point all along - so any deviation is null and void - is the Tramiels made one bad decision after another, driving Atari into the ground until it was nothing but a tax write-off for losses accrued over the fiscal years under the Tramiels until they sold assets for a profit.

 

But we can nitpick over who said what. At the end of the day, the Tramiels killed Atari with greed and stupidity. That's a fact.

 

*Oh my that reads aggressive. Sorry about that. Just saying that obviously we can point at different things as possibilities, but at the end of the day, the facts are the same - leadership failed. That's all. Just saying that no matter how many hypothesis or theories we reference, it doesn't change the fact we know the Tramiels sent out garbage code, completely aware of the contents, to media and retailers. No one else is to blame. Just saying.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Jag64
Address the tone to eliviate confusion

[+CyranoJ]

Threads such as this, from far into the future,eventually collapse into a black hole created by the immense gravitational pull required to store them, and by their accidental traversing of the timelines back to the 90s caused ripple effects that are directly responsible for what caused the Jaguar to fail.

 

If you want to change history, STOP MAKING THESE THREADS over and over.

[Lostdragon]

9 hours ago, Jag64 said:

Okay. Let's toss aside the alleged rumors that Europe had pre-orders in the millions. Let's say that is a complete fabrication. Then we're left with abysmal and pathetic 3rd party relationship building. There's no getting around that. It's not hearsay. Atari tried to control things from start to finish, including in regions it lacked the personnel to control anything in.

 

What we're left with, and this was my point all along - so any deviation is null and void - is the Tramiels made one bad decision after another, driving Atari into the ground until it was nothing but a tax write-off for losses accrued over the fiscal years under the Tramiels until they sold assets for a profit.

 

But we can nitpick over who said what. At the end of the day, the Tramiels killed Atari with greed and stupidity. That's a fact.

 

*Oh my that reads aggressive. Sorry about that. Just saying that obviously we can point at different things as possibilities, but at the end of the day, the facts are the same - leadership failed. That's all. Just saying that no matter how many hypothesis or theories we reference, it doesn't change the fact we know the Tramiels sent out garbage code, completely aware of the contents, to media and retailers. No one else is to blame. Just saying.

Apologies if my post came across as hostile, that wasn't the intent. 

 

It was more a case of intending to establish that sadly bullshots have been a staple part of the industry for generations, bought multiple games in my early years based on them ?

 

 

With the Tramiel's and the Jaguar they were in the situation where it was often the only product they had near completion to be able to put out to retail or bundle in with the Jag CD (Blue Lightning) and either knew would get savaged at review or allegedly believed could equal top tier Saturn and PlayStation titles. 

 

 

The European preorders  issue is a bit of a stickler for myself, as it ends up being used time and time again by professional magazine editors and YT channel hosts, turned book writers, just looking to fill pages and suddenly becomes an established fact. 

 

 

 

[Jag64]

4 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Apologies if my post came across as hostile, that wasn't the intent.

 

Nah. I edited mine in case mine came off aggressive. I think we've all got rumors or anecdotes that annoy us. I'm still new to the whole "community" part of Atari and there seems to be a TON of conflicting stories on things. Liek CyranoJ said, in their own way, we're not going to accomplish sh*t or rewrite history anyway.

[Lostdragon]

20 hours ago, Jag64 said:

Nah. I edited mine in case mine came off aggressive. I think we've all got rumors or anecdotes that annoy us. I'm still new to the whole "community" part of Atari and there seems to be a TON of conflicting stories on things. Liek CyranoJ said, in their own way, we're not going to accomplish sh*t or rewrite history anyway.

I would hope Guru Larry made good on his claims to remove or revise the claim in his Fact Hunt book on any revised editions he puts out, he was given enough supporting evidence. 

 

It's been 3 years+ since i last read anything on the Jaguar from a historical point of view in Retrogamer Magazine and i don't think certain aryicles/interviews have appeared in collected works/special edition bookzines. 

 

 

Doubt you'll ever see the Jane Whittaker interview for example ever reprinted. 

 

Not so sure about Jason Kingsley, not aware Purple Hampton has ever publicly challenged him over claims of who exactly came up with the 3 separate campaigns concept for Jaguar AVP.. 

 

 

I just have to hope publishers treat their paying customers with a bit more respect these days and do basic fact checking, rather than chase a name with a story and hit a word count with it. 

 

 

It'd be nice if YT content creators like Jenovi, issued a statement or revised version of a video, with corrections made due to information given by the community, I know some content creators have done that with other Atari platforms, do a new video with fresh information and mistakes in earlier content either corrected or simply never spoken of at all. 

 

 

Conflicting stories go hand in hand with Atari, pick a platform, an industry name and off you go. 

 

R. J Mical for example likes to give his own account, more than a true, historical one, shall we say?. 

 

 

 

I think we know the Tramiel's well enough to know IF they'd had 2.5 European pre orders for the Jaguar, they'd of been all over it in the press. 

 

 

It would of been an absolute godsend for them, at a time the press were saying nobody had faith in Atari's ability to market the Jaguar. 

 

 

If publishers thought there was such an eager and waiting customer base in Europe alone, support would of been so much higher. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Lost to the mists of time in these mascot discussions was Atari's first actual mascot, "The Big Cheese" (which had first started as Rick Rat and then eventually became Chuck E. Cheese). Isn't he just adorable for a man-sized piece of vermin?

 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 3/4/2022 at 9:34 AM, alucardX said:

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=zH-MXGwPbZA

 

Why wasn't she on the bridge of the Enterprise? She and Data would have got on nicely!

That was before V'ger got to her and turned her green

[Jag64]

1 hour ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

That was before V'ger got to her and turned her green

The resemblance is uncanny.

[alucardX]

1 hour ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

That was before V'ger got to her and turned her green

V'ger! I blocked that out of my mind!

[johannesmutlu]

Atari just should,ve come with more and better 3D games for the jaguar,most jaguar games are just 16bit and some of them are barelly 32bit, even doom hardly shows what the atari jaguar is theorritically capable off,it was stated as a 64bit system at all,altriugh i had readed a long time ago that the atari jaguar uses 1 32bit cpu along with multiple 8bit and 16bit cpu’s together in tandom via a tom & jerry system bios to function like a 64bit machine,but game publishers including atari itself didn’t bother to fully utelize all chips inside it due the dev-kit and their preperation of it were not ready yet to create 3D games,so they mostly only used the 16bit cpu while games such as doom used the 32bit cpu,,also the ram & rom in the atari jaguar seems to be limited so it’s likely that it became very hard to ever fully utelize that system,also atari should,ve come with a better design as this design just looks lazy to me and along with the CD attachment it looks more like a toilet,BTW the atari jaguar should,ve be CD based right out of the box,also the nummeric controller for it should,ve be abandonad since it became outdated from the past,they should,ve come with a 3D controller for it instead,

now just imagine if mossion impossible,resident evil,james bond 007 among other ps1 & N64 games also appeared on the atari juguar, it might have become a good selling system.

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, alucardX said:

V'ger! I blocked that out of my mind!

Just watched Star Trek The Motion Picture for the first time in years tonight ?

 

4 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

That was before V'ger got to her and turned her green

Bald or not, she was hot ?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Zerosquare]

10 minutes ago, johannesmutlu said:

Atari just should,ve come with more and better 3D games for the jaguar,most jaguar games are just 16bit and some of them are barelly 32bit, even doom hardly shows what the atari jaguar is theorritically capable off,it was stated as a 64bit system at all,altriugh i had readed a long time ago that the atari jaguar uses 1 32bit cpu along with multiple 8bit and 16bit cpu’s together in tandom via a tom & jerry system bios to function like a 64bit machine,but game publishers including atari itself didn’t bother to fully utelize all chips inside it due the dev-kit and their preperation of it were not ready yet to create 3D games,so they mostly only used the 16bit cpu while games such as doom used the 32bit cpu,,also the ram & rom in the atari jaguar seems to be limited so it’s likely that it became very hard to ever fully utelize that system,also atari should,ve come with a better design as this design just looks lazy to me and along with the CD attachment it looks more like a toilet,BTW the atari jaguar should,ve be CD based right out of the box,also the nummeric controller for it should,ve be abandonad since it became outdated from the past,they should,ve come with a 3D controller for it instead,

now just imagine if mossion impossible,resident evil,james bond 007 among other ps1 & N64 games also appeared on the atari juguar, it might have become a good selling system.

[Albert]

1 minute ago, Lostdragon said:

Just watched the film for the first time tonight in years ?

For those who aren't aware, Paramount has remastered Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 4K, including updated special effects, and it came out today on Paramount+.  Coming to theaters in May and to Blu-Ray in September.

 

https://blog.trekcore.com/2022/03/star-trek-motion-picture-directors-edition-remastered-paramount-plus-april-5/

 

I haven't watched this movie in some time, so I very much look forward to watching this new, remastered version!

 

 ..Al

[Editorb]

13 minutes ago, johannesmutlu said:

... the atari juguar ...

I think we've stumbled upon what would have saved the system, at least with the Editorb demographic.