What could have saved the Jag?

[42bs]

Any clou what this 'compare bug' is?

[JagChris]

4 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Any clou what this 'compare bug' is?

Ask @JagMod I remember him talking about it extensively back in the day.

[agradeneu]

 

18 hours ago, JagChris said:

 

 

Though some think the significance of a gpu compiler is overplayed I think it did have some significance since most the games used the 68k and ran like crap.

 

 

 

None of your assumptions do make any sense. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

16 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Yes. 

 

When I joined AA in 2003 I quickly decided on a name. When I was browsing the forum there was jagwarlord, Jaggod, Jag this, jag that. This name was a lazy follow suite and quickly slap a jag prefix onto the front. If I think about it I've never really liked the name I hastily gave myself but some mistakes are built to last.

Well the point is that it looks like your main source/reference is yourself.  

[Austin]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I disagree, the Ruiner table slows down when player activates the parachutes and scaling planes at the top of the left table. 

I dont think it is even running 60FPS, but rather 30?

Overall, there are some cool effects yes, but the artwork is very inconsistent, just like the performance and table designs. Flipper physics are somewhat off. 

You know, come to think of it, you are right about the slowdown on the Ruiner table. It’s not nearly as bad on the Tower table, you mostly have to deal with an inconsistent framerate there.

[JagChris]

6 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Well the point is that it looks like your main source/reference is yourself.  

Ok you've just got on my ignore list.

 

Achievement unlocked.

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Ok you've just got on my ignore list.

 

Achievement unlocked.

Unlock this:  "Hello world"

[laymanpigeon]

9 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Ok you've just got on my ignore list.

 

Achievement unlocked.

When reading every page of this thread, that guy is most annoying one out of them all by a country mile.

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

When reading every page of this thread, that guy is most annoying one out of them all by a country mile.

Given you are a newbie in this forum, quite a bold statement.

[JagChris]

18 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

When reading every page of this thread, that guy is most annoying one out of them all by a country mile.

 

Yeah and it's a shame. I've had good conversations with him in the past so I can't say I'm not sorry about this.

Edited August 27, 2022 by JagChris

[agradeneu]

Dear mods, I request to lock this thread for good, thanks. 

[42bs]

Boys'n'girls please calm down. Don't get personal on such a lame topic.

[Austin]

Locking the thread would definitely be a pointless endeavor. The Jaguar sub-forum is full of random armchair historians that will just end up making other threads akin to this one. 'Tis the circle of life in these parts, unfortunately.

 

At least it's good for some laughs here and there, heh.

[+CyranoJ]

4 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Well the point is that it looks like your main source/reference is yourself.  

 

A lot of times you can quote him contractidcing himself.  Ossum.

[+Sauron]

8 hours ago, JagChris said:

Ok you've just got on my ignore list.

 

Achievement unlocked.

Wow, all that for pointing out that you used yourself as a source? What are you trying to hide from us, er, I mean from yourself, JagChris? 

 

[JagChris]

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Wow, all that for pointing out that you used yourself as a source? What are you trying to hide from us, er, I mean from yourself, JagChris? 

 

I linked to where I explained what we discovered about the GPU compiler complete with quotes from the programmers.. Then it finishes off with a link to where the main architect himself had signed up to the same forum and discussed in depth what he had created and achieved.

To sum it up as me just referencing myself is as superficial and insincere a response as you could probably get. Much like your response is Sauron.

Edited August 28, 2022 by JagChris

[+Sauron]

You probably should have explained that better, then. Initially, it looks like you're referencing yourself on it, thus the cause for confusion. 

[Lostdragon]

On 8/27/2022 at 2:31 AM, JagChris said:

There was one bug Atari couldn't figure out or didn't even try to.

 

High Voltage Software came up with their own fix for it It seems to have been trivial for them because they can't even remember what their solution was. They combined it with an LRU caching system and a DSP engine 30X more efficient than anything Atari had allowing the DSP to help the GPU. Using C on the GPU became what they referred to as easy and efficient for them. They tried several times to let Atari know what they accomplished and got ignored.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, the whole HVS and Jaguar 'debate' was talked out long, long ago and it always boils down to the same fundamentals. 

 

 

Yes they found workarounds on the Jaguar, so did Eclipse and other developers who stuck with the system to produce more than a single title. 

 

 

HVS output at time wasn't going to turn around the fortunes of any platform they worked on. 

 

White Men Can't Jump:

 

Yes, Adisak Pochanayon was proud of his coding routines:"The frame rate is between 12 and 18 fps.  It averages around 15... the overall game runs at about the same speed as JagDoom with the exception that WMCJ has more than twice the resolution (320x220 vs 160x180)." 

 

But that did absolutely nothing to save the game from being absolutely savaged at review, at a time Atari needed the press on their side, to convince people to buy the Jaguar. 

 

 

Ruiner Pinball. 

 

Yes, it has t's fans, it's video pinball, the ball physics are off, biggest critiscms reviews had of it other than that was it seemed like something you'd expect to find on 16-bit systems. 

 

Again, a lot of mainstream press reviews slaughtered it. 

 

Some were exceptionally low to the point of being absurd, but the fact is more low scores  helped kill consumer confidence in the Jaguar further still. 

 

 

Vid Grid. 

 

NBA Jam:: Their best Jaguar title, a much needed shot in the arm for the system, but Jaguar version based on the Sega 32X Code, not built from scratch. 

 

 

Star Fleet Academy Bridge

Simulator (Sega 32X).

 

Upgraded from the SNES version, higher resolution, more detailed ship models, more colours, but again, not a flagship title for the system. 

 

Then your into the realms of:

 

Dactyl Joust: Little more than a tech demo, we have no idea how the actual gameplay mechanics would of worked and game far too early along to tell if performance could of been maintained throughout the game. 

 

 

Adisak  also made some  claims about a Doom style FPS engine he had written on the Jaguar, this has never been seen running, he's never released the source code,so it's pure speculation on how it would of performed, had they written a game using it. 

 

They later went onto produce the absolute horror that was N64 Paperboy. 

 

 

 

 

 

A title even the producer of admits looks kinda bad, in the comments section of the above video. 

 

I'm just adding this for the newcomers. 

 

[JagChris]

@Lost Dragon I know you don't like HVS but that's a bit of a tangent my friend. We were talking about compilers and someone new talked about hardware bugs giving a compiler problems for the Jag. 

 

So I too posted that for the newbies.

[+cubanismo]

19 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Adisak  also made some  claims about a Doom style FPS engine he had written on the Jaguar, this has never been seen running, he's never released the source code,so it's pure speculation on how it would of performed, had they written a game using it. 

Is that not this:

 

 

It's more Wolfenstein/AVP style, but it does run pretty well.

 

[JagChris]

34 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Is that not this:

 

 

It's more Wolfenstein/AVP style, but it does run pretty well.

 

No it's a raycast demo HVS whipped up and sent to Atari showing them what they accomplished with the aforementioned GPU compiler. If you read the read me right beneath it you'll see they're trying to show Atari it's straight C code without optimization etc.

 

Atari ignored them.

[JagChris]

And I believe Scott Corley put that together.

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, cubanismo said:

Is that not this:

 

 

It's more Wolfenstein/AVP style, but it does run pretty well.

 

Probably because it is windowed, no textures for ceilings and floor. And no moving objects and any AI in sight.

 

Have you played AvP alpha? That one ran like a dream, without AI routines.

But it's full screen, fully textured and much better looking than the HVS maze demo.

 

As it looks to me HSV were still learning the hardware, but they surely were not getting better results than other developers, say ID or ATD.

The maze demo provides not much reason to read too much into it, compared to DOOM or AvP it is MUCH less impressive. 

 

To be honest, I wonder why anyone would have made a fuss about this.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

54 minutes ago, JagChris said:

No it's a raycast demo HVS whipped up and sent to Atari showing them what they accomplished with the aforementioned GPU compiler. If you read the read me right beneath it you'll see they're trying to show Atari it's straight C code without optimization etc.

 

Atari ignored them.

 

John Mathieson once stated that the Jaguar was not designed to let compilers do the hard work.

 

I also can remember M. Rosocha stating to avoid using C or any high level language, if you want to use the hardware correctly.

 

There is no doubt the Eclipse guys pushed the hardware the most, so their word has some weight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lostdragon]

14 hours ago, JagChris said:

@Lost Dragon I know you don't like HVS but that's a bit of a tangent my friend. We were talking about compilers and someone new talked about hardware bugs giving a compiler problems for the Jag. 

 

So I too posted that for the newbies.

I have no more personal feelings for High Voltage software than any other studio that's had my money in over 40 years of gaming. 

 

 

I poured hours into Tempest X3 on PlayStation, for myself that was their finest hour. 

 

 

The last game i bought from them was Hunter: The Reckoning – Redeemer on classic Xbox, many years ago. 

 

I just never found their Jaguar output to be anything special. 

 

 

I'm not a basketball fan, so that ruled out NBA Jam and WMCJ

 

I played for more enjoyable video pinball games on the MD than what Ruiner offered me on the Jaguar. 

 

They simply produced software for systems i owned and nothing that set them above the rest. 

 

 

If they struggled to update Paperboy on the N64, i don't have much faith they could of made Dactyl Jousr work well on Jaguar in terms of the actual gameplay mechanics, something a lot of developers struggled with doing 3D transitions from classic 2D titles. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Lostdragon