What could have saved the Jag?

[JagChris]

56 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

A Killer App. The Jaguar had some good games, but it didn't have that one game which would draw people to the system.

 

It almost had that if it wasn't for Sony's deep pockets.

[Lostdragon]

On 10/12/2024 at 5:37 PM, phoenixdownita said:

Actually all of the major handhelds were better than the GB.

GG/Nomad/Lynx/NGPC … all superior except in battery life but then again I heard GB Tetris was the killer app.

As an owner of the then big 3 (Lynx, GB and GG), Lynx got a lot of love, despite having the lowest resolution of them all. 

 

But the Game Gear did have Lynx beat in some areas... 

 

And WTF happened here? 

 

No in-game music on the Lynx.. 

 

 

Yet the GB gets this.. 

 

Bloody lovely system the Lynx, but even the Game Gear library dwarfed it.

 

And when the more lacking hardware gets far better treatment, it was where you went for gaming. 

[Lostdragon]

On 10/12/2024 at 5:24 PM, phoenixdownita said:

I mean Rayman on Jag is very pretty, it does look next gen as much as Astal on the Saturn.

 

I am not sure extra RAM per se was really a need unless it was very cheap (which I doubt or the CD32 would have had 2MB extra of fast ram), let alone if it launched in say mid 92 it would have been just 1y after the SNES launch in US and actually coincided with SNES EU launch. 
 

I think that when you compare the Jag to Megadrive/Snes it does show being materially better but without developers that can deliver the kind of innovation/gameplay of the best titles on those systems it’s just a paperweight.

 

EDIT: we can even play a better game, forget the Jag hw, what if Atari was the one behind the 3DO and that was the Jag? Do you really believe it would have drastically changed the final outcome? The 3DO sold ~2M and had the first Need For Speed and Road Rush which where as close as killer app for the system as you could get.

 

Both the 3DO and CD32 had Street Fighter 2 Turbo, the latter version bloody awful, but it had it.. 

 

Even 32X had titles that shamed the Jaguar, 32X Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter outclassed Checkered Flag 2 and F. F. L.

 

 

Even if Atari had canned C. F. 2 and gone with F1 Racer, canned Club Drive and Kasumi Ninja..

 

 

Replaced Cybermorph with AVP as the pack-in title.

 

 

Had Jeff Minter do Major Havoc 2000..

 

 

Beyond do Battlewheels 2000 and AVP 2..

 

Ubisoft had made Rayman a Jaguar exclusive.. 

 

We would still be where we are now regarding the system.. 

 

 

A handful of Killer Apps can't save a system. 

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

8 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

As an owner of the then big 3 (Lynx, GB and GG), Lynx got a lot of love, despite having the lowest resolution of them all. 

 

But the Game Gear did have Lynx beat in some areas... 

 

And WTF happened here? 

 

No in-game music on the Lynx.. 

 

 

Yet the GB gets this.. 

 

Bloody lovely system the Lynx, but even the Game Gear library dwarfed it.

 

And when the more lacking hardware gets far better treatment, it was where you went for gaming. 

Apples and oranges comparisons. Lynx has a lot of unique games the GG has not. Most GG games are shared with the Master System.

I know the infamous comparisons of John Linneman, its just focusing on FPS number and ignores everything else. Its modern FPS cult projected on classic games. Nobody cared about FPS when both systems were competing. I cant remember even one magazine review that would complain about Toki. Besides, only few games really render at 60 FPS. 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:47 PM by agradeneu

[Bill Loguidice]

Just now, agradeneu said:

Apples and oranges comparisons. Lynx has a lot of unique games the GG has not. I know the infamous comparisons of John Linneman, its just focusing on FPS number and ignores everything else. Its modern FPS cult projected on classic games. Nobody cared about FPS when both systems were competing. I cant remember even one magazine review that would complain about Toki. Besides, only few games really render at 60 FPS. 

 

 

 

I disagree. While I had a Lynx back in the day and loved it, it REALLY was incredibly weak in games, even if several were unique and/or best-in-class. The Lynx had 70+ cartridge releases, Game Boy had over 1000, and Game Gear had over 360. I mean, those are huge differences. Heck, the Lynx basically matched the number of titles released for the Neo Geo Pocket (best handheld d-pad ever!), which was effectively on the market for just 1 year+ versus the Lynx's nearly 6 year run. That just shows yet again how bad Atari was with software support (both first and third party) post Atari 2600, and certainly puts yet another exclamation point on why the Jaguar really didn't have a chance.

[agradeneu]

18 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I disagree. While I had a Lynx back in the day and loved it, it REALLY was incredibly weak in games, even if several were unique and/or best-in-class. The Lynx had 70+ cartridge releases, Game Boy had over 1000, and Game Gear had over 360. I mean, those are huge differences. Heck, the Lynx basically matched the number of titles released for the Neo Geo Pocket (best handheld d-pad ever!), which was effectively on the market for just 1 year+ versus the Lynx's nearly 6 year run. That just shows yet again how bad Atari was with software support (both first and third party) post Atari 2600, and certainly puts yet another exclamation point on why the Jaguar really didn't have a chance.

The old quantity vs quality problem. In the end, it boils down to 10 to 20 essential games on any system.

If you look at the average rating of all games, the Lynx faires rather well, as it did not had a lot of bad games on its library and very few shovelware.

Its no problem to find 20 excellent titles on the Lynx, out of 70 titles. 

So I could argue the quality was very high compared to the quantity of releases.

As a Fan of classic fames, the Lynx has a lot to offer and its wildly underrated by most mainstream retro Fans, who only know the big hitters on Nintendo and Sega consoles.

I dont blame them for being biased,  but expect a bit  more wisdom from gaming historians.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:12 PM by agradeneu

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

The old quantity vs quality problem. In the end, it boils down to 10 to 20 essential games on any system.

If you look at the average rating of all games, the Lynx faires rather well, as it did not had a lot of bad games on its library and very few shovelware.

Its no problem to find 20 excellent titles on the Lynx, out of 70 titles. 

So I could argue the quality was very high compared to the quantity of releases.

As a Fan of classic fames, the Lynx has a lot to offer and its wildly underrated by most mainstream retro Fans, who only know the big hitters on Nintendo and Sega consoles.

I dont blame them for being biased,  but expect a bit  more wisdom from gaming historians.

I generally agree with what you say save for the fact that 100 - 200 amazing games to choose from are always better than 10 - 20 amazing games to choose from. Again, I personally love the Lynx, but the library is small and missing too many big third party titles, so I stand by what I originally said.

[agradeneu]

26 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I generally agree with what you say save for the fact that 100 - 200 amazing games to choose from are always better than 10 - 20 amazing games to choose from. Again, I personally love the Lynx, but the library is small and missing too many big third party titles, so I stand by what I originally said.

With the background of Indie games i started to respect the Lynx even more. 

First, a lot of games were far ahead of their time, especially for a handheld, technically incredibly accomplished.

Then, they really tried to think outside of the Box, to create really unique stuff like Slime World, Chips Challenge or Electrocop. No milion seller Material, but worth playing even more so today, ageing like fine wine, and much more interesting than all by the numbers platformers.

Edited Monday at 05:42 PM by agradeneu

[Austin]

On 10/11/2024 at 1:34 PM, phoenixdownita said:

Wonder wonder if a third or fourth SH2 "would of" saved the Saturn? 

It would have been a meracle.

[Bill Loguidice]

37 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

... No milion seller Material, but worth playing even more so today, ageing like fine wine, and much more interesting than all by the numbers platformers.

Seriously, I love the Lynx, but that statement makes no sense. The so-called "by the numbers platforms" have all of those types of games and more, including genres the Lynx was weak or even non-existent in. That's the advantage of multiple factors more of games in the library. We can argue technical merits, controls, screen, sound, etc., but arguing library seems like a monumental stretch.

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I disagree. While I had a Lynx back in the day and loved it, it REALLY was incredibly weak in games, even if several were unique and/or best-in-class. The Lynx had 70+ cartridge releases, Game Boy had over 1000, and Game Gear had over 360. I mean, those are huge differences. Heck, the Lynx basically matched the number of titles released for the Neo Geo Pocket (best handheld d-pad ever!), which was effectively on the market for just 1 year+ versus the Lynx's nearly 6 year run. That just shows yet again how bad Atari was with software support (both first and third party) post Atari 2600, and certainly puts yet another exclamation point on why the Jaguar really didn't have a chance.

I can only echo your thoughts here. 

 

I doubt i played more than a mere handful of GB titles, as no matter what i adjusted, i just really couldn't get on with the awful screen. 

 

I was an Atari ST owner before i was a Lynx owner, I was late to the Lynx, which was fantastic, as games were dead cheap at this point,but..

 

 

I came to Lynx APB after hammering the ST version and was gutted not to find the prisoner confession sequence in it.. 

 

I couldn't get on with Lemmings on the Lynx, putting the icons on the pause screen, absolutely killed the frantic nature of the game for me, it was another i had really loved on the ST. 

 

Titles like Hard Drivin might have been impressive on a technical level, but it was unplayable.

 

Titles like Dracula and Shadow Of The Beast felt ill-suited to handheld gaming,sure it was an amazing conversion, technically, but once you knew what to do, you could complete it in under 30 mins. 

 

 

As great as Toki was, I put more time in on GG Sonic, similar with Ninja Gaiden (again cut back, missing a level for a start), GG Shinobi got far more playtime. 

 

I never got on with ST Prince Of Persia, gave it a second chance on GG, fell in love with it. 

 

 

Wonder Boy: The Dragon’s Trap was my goto GG title so often, Lynx Viking Child couldn't hold a light to it. 

 

I was playing a good few console RPG titles when i got into handheld gaming, the Lynx offered nothing.. 

 

The Lynx had no Columns or Tetris as far as commercial releases went.. 

 

Warbirds was great, but needed the variety of Wings for long term appeal. 

 

 

I loved Xenophobe, never took to it on the ST, but the improvements made for the Lynx version really paid off.. 

 

I came to Californa Games after loving the C64 version..only 4 events??? 

 

So yes, i found the library incredibly weak in real terms compared to other systems wanting my time and money. 

[Austin]

Glad to see the Jag-like fumes are seeping from the Lynx plastic shells now.

[Lostdragon]

23 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Seriously, I love the Lynx, but that statement makes no sense. The so-called "by the numbers platforms" have all of those types of games and more, including genres the Lynx was weak or even non-existent in. That's the advantage of multiple factors more of games in the library. We can argue technical merits, controls, screen, sound, etc., but arguing library seems like a monumental stretch.

Ignoring platform games on the system, what did the Lynx have to offer to compete with the likes of:

 

 

Streets Of Rage 2

 

Road Rash

 

Baku Baku 

 

 

Gunstar Heroes. 

 

 

It had the chance of Faceball 2000,but didn't get it, Game Gear did,Japan only sure, but it still arrived. 

 

 

This comment for myself summed up Atari's policy towards the Lynx library:

 

"The head of Atari's marketing (at least at the time when I was at Epyx) hated Midi Maze,and thought that the only games that should be done for the Lynx were
old coin-op retreads.

 

 Leonard Tramiel thought that Midi Maze should be done for the Lynx, but he had no influence over or much contact with
anyone working on Lynx stuff.  

 

Epyx even started a Midi Maze-like game,
but Atari didn't want it."

 

Source :Stephen H. Landrum    

 

 

Jeff Minter offered Atari Defender 2 on the Lynx, Atari weren't interested. 

 

Rob Nicholson showed them Elite was possible on the Lynx, Atari didn't want to pay for the licence. 

 

The commercial library could of been so much richer. 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

13 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

I can only echo your thoughts here. 

 

I doubt i played more than a mere handful of GB titles, as no matter what i adjusted, i just really couldn't get on with the awful screen. 

 

I was an Atari ST owner before i was a Lynx owner, I was late to the Lynx, which was fantastic, as games were dead cheap at this point,but..

 

 

I came to Lynx APB after hammering the ST version and was gutted not to find the prisoner confession sequence in it.. 

 

I couldn't get on with Lemmings on the Lynx, putting the icons on the pause screen, absolutely killed the frantic nature of the game for me, it was another i had really loved on the ST. 

 

Titles like Hard Drivin might have been impressive on a technical level, but it was unplayable.

 

Titles like Dracula and Shadow Of The Beast felt ill-suited to handheld gaming,sure it was an amazing conversion, technically, but once you knew what to do, you could complete it in under 30 mins. 

 

 

As great as Toki was, I put more time in on GG Sonic, similar with Ninja Gaiden (again cut back, missing a level for a start), GG Shinobi got far more playtime. 

 

I never got on with ST Prince Of Persia, gave it a second chance on GG, fell in love with it. 

 

 

Wonder Boy: The Dragon’s Trap was my goto GG title so often, Lynx Viking Child couldn't hold a light to it. 

 

I was playing a good few console RPG titles when i got into handheld gaming, the Lynx offered nothing.. 

 

The Lynx had no Columns or Tetris as far as commercial releases went.. 

 

Warbirds was great, but needed the variety of Wings for long term appeal. 

 

 

I loved Xenophobe, never took to it on the ST, but the improvements made for the Lynx version really paid off.. 

 

I came to Californa Games after loving the C64 version..only 4 events??? 

 

So yes, i found the library incredibly weak in real terms compared to other systems wanting my time and money. 

Absolutely, but I will say for handheld versions, generally speaking, I really liked what the Lynx did with titles like California Games, Klax, APB, Rampart, Gauntlet: The Third Encounter, etc. I didn't always expect the full console experience, of course, but what was there was extremely well executed, sometimes even beating out the visuals/presentation, relatively speaking, of the 8-bit console releases. There was no denying the Lynx was something special and was arguably the one non-computer system that Atari got almost completely right post Atari 2600 (putting aside the fact that it really was an Amiga/Epyx creation for the most part). As have been stated many times in the past, it's a shame that Atari couldn't have done better with the Lynx/Jaguar "pairing," but it was no doubt a bit too late for that (it would have needed to be a Lynx/Panther-timing pairing).

Anyway, the main point with the software library on the Lynx is for every great title in genre A, there were a dozen great titles in genre A on the Game Boy, and maybe half a dozen on the Game Gear. In many ways, it was what the 7800 and Jaguar were up against as well. The top-notch titles arguably stood out more, but also the terrible titles, again, because of the incredibly small libraries relative to the competition.

[+GoldLeader]

19 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

 

 

I doubt i played more than a mere handful of GB titles, as no matter what i adjusted, i just really couldn't get on with the awful screen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^THIS! 

 

I think Game Boy was always a challenge!  Mainly seeing the screen and knowing there might be a Great game there,  but it was all only potential...Until Super Game Boy and later, when GBA SP came along,  and everything after (IPS screens, backlighting, ANALOGUE POCKET)...then we could see (pun intended) what the Game Boy really had on offer...

[agradeneu]

27 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Seriously, I love the Lynx, but that statement makes no sense. The so-called "by the numbers platforms" have all of those types of games and more, including genres the Lynx was weak or even non-existent in. That's the advantage of multiple factors more of games in the library. We can argue technical merits, controls, screen, sound, etc., but arguing library seems like a monumental stretch.

I said platformers, or platforming games. 

The Lynx had a good few of those, but the Gameboy had hundreds, so naturally a lot of generic ones. 

 

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Ignoring platform games on the system, what did the Lynx have to offer to compete with the likes of:

 

 

Streets Of Rage 2

 

Road Rash

 

Baku Baku 

 

 

Gunstar Heroes. 

 

 

It had the chance of Faceball 2000,but didn't get it, Game Gear did,Japan only sure, but it still arrived. 

 

 

This comment for myself summed up Atari's policy towards the Lynx library:

 

"The head of Atari's marketing (at least at the time when I was at Epyx) hated Midi Maze,and thought that the only games that should be done for the Lynx were
old coin-op retreads.

 

 Leonard Tramiel thought that Midi Maze should be done for the Lynx, but he had no influence over or much contact with
anyone working on Lynx stuff.  

 

Epyx even started a Midi Maze-like game,
but Atari didn't want it."

 

Source :Stephen H. Landrum    

 

 

Jeff Minter offered Atari Defender 2 on the Lynx, Atari weren't interested. 

 

Rob Nicholson showed them Elite was possible on the Lynx, Atari didn't want to pay for the licence. 

 

The commercial library could of been so much richer. 

 

Sorry but this is confusing. You think the Gameboy was awful and then complain about the Lynx not matching the ST. The GG had good games, no doubt. But compare apples with apples. 

BTw you both are off topic, please post your opinions in the Lynx forum, i wonder what Response you would get there.

Edited Monday at 06:49 PM by agradeneu

[+GoldLeader]

Back on Topic (a g a i n  heh)

 

What could have saved The Jaguar?

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler Tags!   Sometimes ya gotta work for it!  Yeah!!

 

Spoiler

GAMES!!

DEV TOOLS!

DEVS!!!!

DEVS who weren't Tools!

A Better ATARI

Better 3rd Party relations

Atari not being dicks to devs in the past

Killer Apps!

More Killer Apps!

Advertising!!!

Magazine coverage of Killer Aps!

Better system specs

A lower price

Multiple Jaguar colors!  (To match your living room)

More Games in a shorter time frame

More Jag Shelf Space in MORE retailers

Positive Game Reviews in Magazines!

Posters, Coffee Mugs, T-Shirts and licensed Atari Scuba Gear, Safari Hats, Race Cars and Thermoses

Jaguar appearing in a movie, TV show, or Nirvana video

Atari having MORE CASH in the First place!

Maybe a Time Machine to prevent the Tramiel Sale

Nolan Bushnell

 

 

Your Mom buying everyone Jaguars for their birthdays (And Christmas!)

 

 

It's all so simple really.

 

 

Cheers!

[Lostdragon]

43 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Absolutely, but I will say for handheld versions, generally speaking, I really liked what the Lynx did with titles like California Games, Klax, APB, Rampart, Gauntlet: The Third Encounter, etc. I didn't always expect the full console experience, of course, but what was there was extremely well executed, sometimes even beating out the visuals/presentation, relatively speaking, of the 8-bit console releases. There was no denying the Lynx was something special and was arguably the one non-computer system that Atari got almost completely right post Atari 2600 (putting aside the fact that it really was an Amiga/Epyx creation for the most part). As have been stated many times in the past, it's a shame that Atari couldn't have done better with the Lynx/Jaguar "pairing," but it was no doubt a bit too late for that (it would have needed to be a Lynx/Panther-timing pairing).

Anyway, the main point with the software library on the Lynx is for every great title in genre A, there were a dozen great titles in genre A on the Game Boy, and maybe half a dozen on the Game Gear. In many ways, it was what the 7800 and Jaguar were up against as well. The top-notch titles arguably stood out more, but also the terrible titles, again, because of the incredibly small libraries relative to the competition.

I tried Electrocop, it wasn't for me, Klax i had tried on C64 and then ST, just didn't have the appeal of Tetris or Columns for myself. 

 

Gauntlet: The Third Encounter? Really shouldn't of had the Gauntlet name attached to it, i appreciate it was marketing but a Gauntlet experience it just wasn't. 

 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

I tried Electrocop, it wasn't for me, Klax i had tried on C64 and then ST, just didn't have the appeal of Tetris or Columns for myself. 

 

Gauntlet: The Third Encounter? Really shouldn't of had the Gauntlet name attached to it, i appreciate it was marketing but a Gauntlet experience it just wasn't. 

 

 

Klax was no Tetris or Columns, but at least it was in the same genre. I agree about Gauntlet on the Lynx, but it was technically impressive and used the rotation feature. Not a great game, but something unique for the platform.

[Lostdragon]

47 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

^THIS! 

 

I think Game Boy was always a challenge!  Mainly seeing the screen and knowing there might be a Great game there,  but it was all only potential...Until Super Game Boy and later, when GBA SP came along,  and everything after (IPS screens, backlighting, ANALOGUE POCKET)...then we could see (pun intended) what the Game Boy really had on offer...

I so wanted to love the GB, as it had it's own take on Alien 3,as much as i loved the SNES and MD incarnations, i was keen to try something new. 

 

Each and every time i returned to the system, that screen just killed it for me. 

 

I was a lot younger then, great eyesight, where as now, i need glasses even to watch YT videos, i couldn't play on any handheld. 

 

Sure, my GG suffered chronic ghosting but that i could live with, the GB screen, no way. 

 

 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

11 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

I so wanted to love the GB, as it had it's own take on Alien 3,as much as i loved the SNES and MD incarnations, i was keen to try something new. 

 

Each and every time i returned to the system, that screen just killed it for me. 

 

I was a lot younger then, great eyesight, where as now, i need glasses even to watch YT videos, i couldn't play on any handheld. 

 

Sure, my GG suffered chronic ghosting but that i could live with, the GB screen, no way. 

 

 

 

Absolutely. I hated the GB screen, but liked what was on the Lynx and Game Gear at the time. Now, to modern eyes, all of those screens are terrible, so I'm very happy for modern solutions for both screens and systems (Analogue Pocket). It makes all of those games playable again. In fact, I use a Pocket almost exclusively for GB series, Lynx, Game Gear, and NGP games (occasional TG-16/PCE, but I usually prefer that on a TV), although I still have a modded Lynx 2 for games that use rotation and/or other features (and I wouldn't mind getting a modded NGP again because of said fantastic d-pad). 

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

BTw you both are off topic, please post your opinions in the Lynx forum, i wonder what Response you would get there.

I can't see any other rational response than what we've stated. The Lynx had some technical advantages over both the GB/GBC and Game Gear, but it was severely lacking in terms of games. None of that should be in the least bit controversial. It's the same story with the Jaguar and the SNES, Genesis, and 3DO. Very rarely does arguably the most powerful system (whether on paper or in practice) have the best game library.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Sorry but this is confusing. You think the Gameboy was awful and then complain about the Lynx not matching the ST. The GG had good games, no doubt. But compare apples with apples. 

BTw you both are off topic, please post your opinions in the Lynx forum, i wonder what Response you would get there.

What's confusing? 

 

I pointed out i couldn't personally get in with the awful LCD GB Screen, a point other posters had no issues understanding and agreed with.. 

 

I explained which titles on the Lynx i had previously experienced on platforms like the C64, GB and Atari ST and how the Lynx versions dissapointed me, by lacking the same number of events (Californa Games), a bonus stage (APB), In-game music (Viking Child) or had fundamental gameplay changes, icons now on a pause screen, thus killing the original frantic nature (Lemmings). 

 

I have no plans to get into discussions regarding fruit that grows on apple trees and are a members of the rose family Vs fruits of a tree in the family Rutaceae... 

 

As for being off topic, the thread took a sideways route, as threads often do, but when people post comments that make for further interesting discussion, i will reply to them, where they are posted.

 

I don't know the expected etiquette here, i just found the points raised about the Lynx library to be something worth talking about. 

 

It made a very refreshing change from the frothy mix of numberwang moments.. 

 

I like my numberwang more like this.. 

 

 

 

 

[alucardX]

Maybe a Nintendo logo on the Jaguar could have saved it.