What could have saved the Jag?

[leech]

25 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You edited your posted and added this fourth item, so I'll address it here. Unfortunately, you misunderstood me again, so allow me to clarify further. I never said or implied that Jaguar didn't have "ground up" homebrews. The Jaguar has obviously had that for many years. I merely meant that a lot of homebrews are Atari ST ports. More a statement of fact. Obviously, "ground up" homebrews would be required to meet my personal criteria/desire.

Now, with all due respect to the hard work put into Xenowings - it looks fairly fun and certainly is pleasing audio-visually - but, like I implied in my previous comment, it's not exactly a deep game or something that pushes the hardware or makes you go "wow,"  at least not me. Again, very well done, an excellent addition to the library, etc., but not at the technical level, scope, or ambition of the examples I gave.

I think what is needed is Atari Blast! Updated from the 8bit to the Jag's insane ability to push colors.  At the time it came out, I feel that was it's biggest advantage it had over systems of the same time.  The CRY effect was utilized pretty well in Battlemorph and Tempest 2000.  The gorgeousness of Rayman shows that it is a 2d platformer monster as well.  Maybe with some AI art stuff, it would be far easier to make some very pretty games.  Not that pretty makes a game funner...

 

I also wonder, I know some have the talent to port ST games over, I was wondering how different it is to port Amiga (and especially AGA) games over?  Or even Genesis or Mac.

 

But there definitely are types of games the Jag excells at.  (To be more on topic) one thing that could have saved the Jag?  Better 3d performance.   Everything was moving that direction, and if it could have held its ground against the Playstation, AND had the dev tools to make game porting / development better, AND Atari hadn't ruined their reputation by a string if bad dev support... in this alternate dimension, Atari could have survived as competition against Nintendo.

All the game consoles are converging into being PCs anyhow though.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

 

So much for Jaguar homebrews being "too simple and not deep". 

 

It's not a deep game as it's basically inspired by Galaga 88. If it's impressive beyond some parallax and well-executed audio-visuals, I don't see it. So be it. Clearly, this is quite personal for you, but I again refer to my original comment/point as written, and leave it at that. I certainly don't want to offend anyone with my hopes for my definition of next-level homebrews within the next 5 years.

 

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, leech said:

I also wonder, I know some have the talent to port ST games over, I was wondering how different it is to port Amiga (and especially AGA) games over?  Or even Genesis or Mac.

That is one of my minor disappointments with the Atari ST ports to the Jaguar. It's my understanding (possibly wrong) that many make use of ST graphics and, at best, Amiga soundtracks. There must be some technical reason for using ST graphics as obviously it would be preferable to use the superior Amiga graphics, and/or enhance the ported ST ones to make use of more colors. 

[agradeneu]

10 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 I'm also no developer, never have been, never will be. I have a great respect for any game creation on any platform.

What I ask myself then is,  why you feel entitled to set the criterias for Jaguar homebrews, a platform you obviously dont like, dont understand and with no substantial knowledge of game developement?!

 

The greatest display of respect for you would be to avoid making superficial judgements, but you keep doing the opposite. 

 

 

 

 

[pacman000]

57 minutes ago, zzip said:

typo detected, did you mean "small upstarts" or "smelly upstarts"? 

 

Small. Wish I noticed that yesterday. Or I wish I could edit the post today.

 

[pacman000]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

One thing I'd like to see from the Jaguar - and I suspect it may be less than 5 years away - are some consistent AAA homebrews like we've been getting the past several years on other classic platforms like, for example, the Sega Genesis/MD. Certainly there are, and have been, several quality homebrews for the Jaguar, and plenty of ST conversions, etc., but I mean genuine ground-up creations that take real advantage of every trick the platform has, creating end products, again, much like, for an example, on the Sega Genesis/MD now, that truly rival, and sometimes exceed, the very best commercial games from back in the day.

Those AAA homebrews were 5 years away 5 years ago.

[Bill Loguidice]

Just now, agradeneu said:

What I ask myself then is,  why you feel entitled to set the criterias for Jaguar homebrews, a platform you obviously dont like, dont understand and with no substantial knowledge of game developement?!

 

The greatest display of respect for you would be to avoid making superficial judgements, but you keep doing the opposite. 

 

I didn't realize there were specific rules of engagement in a discussion forum. I really, genuinely don't think you understood most of what I wrote, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully others understood the point I was trying to make.

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

That is one of my minor disappointments with the Atari ST ports to the Jaguar. It's my understanding (possibly wrong) that many make use of ST graphics and, at best, Amiga soundtracks. There must be some technical reason for using ST graphics as obviously it would be preferable to use the superior Amiga graphics, and/or enhance the ported ST ones to make use of more colors. 

Because the ports are "hacks" of ST binaries that require a great knowledge of the ST and Jaguar.

 

Ports of Amiga would require a dev knowing the Amiga hardware inside out.

 

Remasters of ST games would require the access to the full art assets and an artist interrested to touch them up.  

 

 

[agradeneu]

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I didn't realize there were specific rules of engagement in a discussion forum. I really, genuinely don't think you understood most of what I wrote, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully others understood the point I was trying to make.

I fully understand what you are trying to do here.

 

You already disregarded the Lynx out of pure self entitlement and you are doing everything you could to irritate Jaguar fans and developers in a Jaguar forum.

 

There is no *specific* rule you are ignoring, I think its a sore lack of common sense on your side.

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:59 PM by agradeneu

[pacman000]

59 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

it's not exactly a deep game or something that pushes the hardware or makes you go "wow,"  at least not me.

The Jaguar already had hardware pushing games during its life; basically, ST-level 3D with texture maps.

It might not make you go "WOW" today, but it was going beyond what the system was designed to do.

[pacman000]

(Double Post)

Edited Wednesday at 03:10 PM by pacman000
deleting accidental double post.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I fully understand what you are trying to do here.

 

Sorry, but it's clear to me that you don't. You're very passionate about the Jaguar, and I respect that (I only like the platform, like almost every platform, and certainly don't love it in that way), but I'm disappointed that you took it as some type of attack. To summarize and maybe simplify (for the last time), I said I hope/expect Jaguar homebrew development to hit AAA levels, which I define as deep experiences that use every technical trick in the book, on a more consistent basis, within the next five years. I used the Sega Genesis/MD as an example. It took many years for it to reach the high levels it's at now, with very long, deep, and technically impressive games. The Jaguar may never reach those levels, but I'm offering my opinion of what I'd like to see. If you think the Jaguar is already there, so be it, but I don't agree. I'd like to go "wow" with the Jaguar on more occasions like I do on some other platforms, both console and computer. I genuinely think the potential is there.

 

Let me put it another way and ask you a question. Do you think we've reached the pinnacle of Atari Jaguar game development? Have we hit the ceiling? Is Xenowings the best we'll get? I think there's still more for the Jaguar, and future devs, to give. Using the three examples I used for the Genesis/MD, I don't think that platform will be able to do much better. It's effectively peaked (and in this case, that's not a bad thing, it just means that we'll be able to get more games at those levels).

[Bill Loguidice]

Just now, pacman000 said:

The Jaguar already had hardware pushing games during its life; basically, ST-level 3D with texture maps.

It might not make you go "WOW" today, but it was going beyond what the system was designed to do.

Again, my comments were specifically about homebrews, not commercial lifespan titles. Zero 5 and a few other games on the Jaguar made me go "wow," but they weren't homebrews. And, as I've stated before, I'd much rather see its full 2D potential, its strength, utilized, than something like 3D that it's not as well suited for. With that said, there certainly shouldn't be any restrictions. There's no reason why a true AAA homebrew couldn't go all-out on 2D, as well as make effective use of 3D. It's like the equivalent to the Genesis/MD homebrews that I referenced, doing Mode 7-like effects on hardware without that native capability. 

[Bill Loguidice]

24 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I fully understand what you are trying to do here.

 

You already disregarded the Lynx out of pure self entitlement and you are doing everything you could to irritate Jaguar fans and developers in a Jaguar forum.

 

There is no *specific* rule you are ignoring, I think its a sore lack of common sense on your side.

 

You keep editing your posts, so I'll respond to the two new sentences that you added. I've been willing to have a genuine discussion with you, but you're clearly too emotionally invested. 

 

First off, I owned a Lynx back in the day even before I had a Game Gear or Game Boy. It was a favorite of mine. I have owned and continue to own a large library of Lynx systems and games, although pared down these days like much of my collection. My statements about the Lynx, while they may have hurt your feelings, were as objective as possible. You're the one that doesn't want to have a legitimate discussion about the Lynx. It's like you don't want to acknowledge ANY flaws. No platform is perfect and certainly all other platforms have their share of pluses and minuses as well. It shouldn't be personal to have honest discussions about things. The Lynx is amazing, especially for the time, but has always been lacking in terms of game library. That's not a hot take.

As for irritating Jaguar fans, again, last I checked, this is a discussion forum, not a fan forum. If we're having an honest discussion about plus and minuses, good things and bad, hopes/expectations for the future, why is that so offensive to you? Isn't full fanboy boring and intellectually dishonest? The fact that any of us on here are discussing a platform like the Jaguar kind of proves our genuine interest in it, no? I mean, I get I don't come across as a Jaguar cheerleader - I'm not - but I sure as hell have invested a ton into the platform since the mid-90s (and continue to do so!) and similarly have strong opinions about it (as I do with every other computer and console  - it's kind of my jam).

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

It's not a deep game as it's basically inspired by Galaga 88. If it's impressive beyond some parallax and well-executed audio-visuals, I don't see it. So be it. Clearly, this is quite personal for you, but I again refer to my original comment/point as written, and leave it at that. I certainly don't want to offend anyone with my hopes for my definition of next-level homebrews within the next 5 years.

 

If you are not able to appreciate what is done now, you wont be able in 5 years. 

 

Do you own a Jaguar?

 

Which homebrews and originals have you played actually? 

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:51 PM by agradeneu

[phoenixdownita]

[agradeneu]

15 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You keep editing your posts, so I'll respond to the two new sentences that you added. 

For grammar correction, or adding explanations.

[Bill Loguidice]

6 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

If you are not able to appreciate what is done now, you wont be able in 5 years. 

 

Can you answer my earlier question, or are you stating that this is the best we'll ever get on the Jaguar, i.e., nice-looking updates of mechanically straightforward arcade games? I don't think we have to be so limited. There's still room for growth.

[agradeneu]

9 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Can you answer my earlier question, or are you stating that this is the best we'll ever get on the Jaguar, i.e., nice-looking updates of mechanically straightforward arcade games? I don't think we have to be so limited. There's still room for growth.

 

 

Ok, Iam listening.

 

Please give us a list of names of Jaguar homebrews you know or have played. Xenowings is just 1 game of many released or in development.

 

 

[micdune]

Some perspective here about Xenowings. It is the very first game we do on Jaguar so there is some learning curve in understanding the hardware, especially considering the relative lack of technical documentation compared to the Genesis (unless of course you use the great tools from Reboot, which we didn't). Also you have to consider things from a dev perspective, making (good or decent) games is a big endeavour. It requires a lot of time investement and work. All the Genesis games mentioned above have raised money in one form or another and in the case of Zpf (the only one in the three mentioned that i personaly find up having any wow effect) has started as a demo in 2020 and is still being worked on with the support of a commercial structure now. Also they are not really much of any quantum leap compared to what already exists in the great Megadrive library, both technically and artistically. But each to their own i guess.

We did Xenowings in 2 years of time (not fulltime of course) because we knew that to hit a reasonable deadline with a first game you had to opt for a pretty contained scope with a simple design. A good game is a game which is released which explains the type of design and scope we choose. That said i think we did a better job than what was done back then on the awful Crescent Galaxy so that's already something.

Of course we could do more complex games, but this another level of investement not just in term of craft but also design (and this takes an awful lot of time, unless you're happy with poor levels/enemies placement or insane difficulty) and unless you ever make games, this is something that can be difficult to grasp. It would make sense if you dedicate more time (and therefore have some money to compensate) but i doubt this would be possible on  a niche platform like the Jaguar.

That said, feel free to wow us with your own AAA homebrew, the more the merrier.

Edited Wednesday at 04:21 PM by micdune
typo

[Punisher5.0]

1 hour ago, pacman000 said:

Small. Wish I noticed that yesterday. Or I wish I could edit the post today.

 

You can fix it now

[agradeneu]

Common sense is not goin' into a "Metallica" forum and write there how their music sucked or why they did not make better music. 

 

You should not complain  if they kicked you out with a vengeance.

 

 

 

[alucardX]

9 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Common sense is not goin' into a "Metallica" forum and write there how their music sucked or why they did not make better music. 

 

You should not complain  if they kicked you out with a vengeance.

 

 

 

Personal experience? Megadeth fan?

 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself here. 😉🫣

[alucardX]

In response to the conversation between @Bill Loguidice and @agradeneu I personally feel that Jumping at Shadows is hitting some pretty high marks. If you look at some of the indie games produced and sold on other systems they really aren't doing anything special when considering the power of the hardware they're running on. You look at JAS and it looks good, runs very smoothly and uses the Jaguar's hardware strengths. It may not be the experience that "wows you" and I don't mean any disrespect in tone there, but it is an amazing title (granted, I've only played the demo) that was a huge labor of love.

[Bill Loguidice]

33 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 

 

Ok, Iam listening.

 

Please give us a list of names of Jaguar homebrews you know or have played. Xenowings is just 1 game of many released or in development.

 

 

You can keep dodging. I don't need to list more homebrews I've played on the Jaguar. I've said what I've had to say. Twist it however you want.