What could have saved the Jag?

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You can keep dodging. I don't need to list more homebrews I've played on the Jaguar. I've said what I've had to say. Twist it however you want.

Iam not sure what you mean. Of course I can answer your question if you could repeat it. I have lost it in the process.

BTW Iam not twisting anything. 

 

If you judge on Jaguar homebrew, please tell us which games you have played/point at actually.

[agradeneu]

9 minutes ago, alucardX said:

In response to the conversation between @Bill Loguidice and @agradeneu I personally feel that Jumping at Shadows is hitting some pretty high marks. If you look at some of the indie games produced and sold on other systems they really aren't doing anything special when considering the power of the hardware they're running on. You look at JAS and it looks good, runs very smoothly and uses the Jaguar's hardware strengths. It may not be the experience that "wows you" and I don't mean any disrespect in tone there, but it is an amazing title (granted, I've only played the demo) that was a huge labor of love.

Not played, no "Wow"

 

Please don't blame us.

 

Thanks for the kind words btw. Very appreciated!

[Bill Loguidice]

34 minutes ago, micdune said:

Of course we could do more complex games, but this another level of investement not just in term of craft but also design (and this takes an awful lot of time, unless you're happy with poor levels/enemies placement or insane difficulty) and unless you ever make games, this is something that can be difficult to grasp. It would make sense if you dedicate more time (and therefore have some money to compensate) but i doubt this would be possible on  a niche platform like the Jaguar.

That said, feel free to wow us with your own AAA homebrew, the more the merrier.

Exactly. You've reached the level you've reached now, so maybe within the next five years we'll get those complex games that push what the platform is fully capable of in terms of both scope and audio-visuals, all in one, like has been achieved on some other platforms. That takes nothing away what's been done to date. It's all important as part of the process. What a crazy thing for me to have exactly said earlier!

 

(I'll ignore the comical second paragraph)

[agradeneu]

Feel free to make your vote in the poll, Bill. 🙂

[micdune]

14 minutes ago, alucardX said:

I personally feel that Jumping at Shadows is hitting some pretty high marks. If you look at some of the indie games produced and sold on other systems they really aren't doing anything special when considering the power of the hardware they're running on. You look at JAS and it looks good, runs very smoothly and uses the Jaguar's hardware strengths. It may not be the experience that "wows you" and I don't mean any disrespect in tone there, but it is an amazing title (granted, I've only played the demo) that was a huge labor of love.

True words. In terms of design complexity it is way beyond what we did on Xenowings. And on top of that it's very well crafted and could pass for a modern indie game on another system. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:58 PM by micdune
typo

[alucardX]

Just now, micdune said:

True words. In terms of design complexity it is way beyond what we did on Xenowings. And on top of that it's very well crafted and could pass for a modern indie game on another system. 

I agree, it really could sell many copies as an indie game on Switch, PS5, XBoxen and PC.

[micdune]

12 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Exactly. You've reached the level you've reached now, so maybe within the next five years we'll get those complex games that push what the platform is fully capable of in terms of both scope and audio-visuals, all in one, like has been achieved on some other platforms.

 I doubt there will be more funding in 5 years from now. 

 

12 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

(I'll ignore the comical second paragraph)

Well don't, five years should be enough to learn the intricacies of the Jaguar. Wouldn't hold my breath though.

Edited Wednesday at 05:08 PM by micdune
typo

[alucardX]

It should also be noted that the number of people willing to hack on the Genesis/MegaDrive probably far outnumber the amount of people working on anything for the Jaguar. Not only that but the documented tricks used in commercial games for the Genesis/MegaDrive give new devs a great jumping point to work from. That combined with all the new tricks learned and documented really creates a snowball effect that builds on the library of tricks at the disposal of any would-be MegaDrive dev.

 

I'm actually quite surprised that we even have JagStudio. That was a big undertaking and that alone gives us a really great resource for people to create new material more easily. This really puts the Jaguar homebrew scene at a great advantage to where it was before JagStudio.

[Austin]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Sorry, but it's clear to me that you don't. You're very passionate about the Jaguar, and I respect that (I only like the platform, like almost every platform, and certainly don't love it in that way), but I'm disappointed that you took it as some type of attack. To summarize and maybe simplify (for the last time), I said I hope/expect Jaguar homebrew development to hit AAA levels, which I define as deep experiences that use every technical trick in the book, on a more consistent basis, within the next five years. I used the Sega Genesis/MD as an example. It took many years for it to reach the high levels it's at now, with very long, deep, and technically impressive games. The Jaguar may never reach those levels, but I'm offering my opinion of what I'd like to see. If you think the Jaguar is already there, so be it, but I don't agree. I'd like to go "wow" with the Jaguar on more occasions like I do on some other platforms, both console and computer. I genuinely think the potential is there.

"AAA" to me with regards to the Jaguar would be games like Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier and Alien Vs. Predator. Homebrew for the platform over the years has been fun no doubt, but the fact is absolutely nothing created has come close to what would be considered its best games available when it was current.  

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Again, my comments were specifically about homebrews, not commercial lifespan titles. Zero 5 and a few other games on the Jaguar made me go "wow," but they weren't homebrews. And, as I've stated before, I'd much rather see its full 2D potential, its strength, utilized, than something like 3D that it's not as well suited for. With that said, there certainly shouldn't be any restrictions. There's no reason why a true AAA homebrew couldn't go all-out on 2D, as well as make effective use of 3D. It's like the equivalent to the Genesis/MD homebrews that I referenced, doing Mode 7-like effects on hardware without that native capability. 

Its 2D potential was reached, though, in the form of Rayman and Defender 2000. Sure, there might be some other tricks devs may be able to come up with, but generally I doubt you'll get much better than those.

Edited Wednesday at 05:28 PM by Austin

[Lost Monkey]

Next Topic:

 

"What could have saved the Jag developers?"

[micdune]

2 minutes ago, Austin said:

"AAA" to me with regards to the Jaguar would be games like Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier and Alien Vs. Predator. Homebrew for the platform over the years has been fun no doubt, but the fact is absolutely nothing created has come close to what would be considered its best games available when it was current.

Exactly and that's normal. There's no way a homebrew developer would spend 2 or 3 years fulltime on something similar unless there's some money to sustain developement.

[agradeneu]

7 minutes ago, Austin said:

"AAA" to me with regards to the Jaguar would be games like Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier and Alien Vs. Predator. Homebrew for the platform over the years has been fun no doubt, but the fact is absolutely nothing created has come close to what would be considered its best games available when it was current.

I agree for 3D, but disagree for 2D games. I think you are well aware of that, so I wonder why you stack up Iron Soldier or Tempest 2000 against homebrews, that are mostly 2D games?

 

However:

 

Last Strike easily beats Trevor McFur.

 

For platformers, we have Rayman, but thats it for excellent. I dont want to brag about my games, but Jumping at Shadows beats both Bubsy and Zool2 in my book.

 

No JRPGs, so Wyvern Tales 2 will fill a gap in the library. 

 

IMO its quite objective to say that many homebrews eclipse the offerings of the official library. And that was the goal and still is. 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:35 PM by agradeneu

[Lost Monkey]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

I agree for 3D, but disagree for 2D games. 

 

Last Strike easily beats Trevor McFur.

 

For platformers, we have Rayman, but thats it for excellent. I dont want to brag about my games, but Jumping at Shadows beats both Bubsy and Zool2 in my book.

 

No JRPGs, so Wyvern Tales 2 will fill a gap in the library. 

 

 

You are setting the bar low by making this personal.  Beating Trevor McFur does not make AAA.   Absence of a JRPG in the library doesn't give AAA status to the first one that comes along.

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Lost Monkey said:

You are setting the bar low by making this personal.  Beating Trevor McFur does not make AAA.   Absence of a JRPG in the library doesn't give AAA status to the first one that comes along.

 

 

What is AAA on the Jaguar, can you define that? 

 

Keep in mind that the worst games on Jag are mostly 3D too.

 

For Wyvern Tales 2, its not only about filling a gap, but its looks very nice and any JRPG is an ambitious homebrew project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Austin]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

I agree for 3D, but disagree for 2D games. 

 

Last Strike easily beats Trevor McFur.

 

For platformers, we have Rayman, but thats it for excellent. I dont want to brag about my games, but Jumping at Shadows beats both Bubsy and Zool2 in my book.

 

No JRPGs, so Wyvern Tales 2 will fill a gap in the library. 

Trevor McFur is a low bar, we all know that. I wasn't a fan of Last Strike's gameplay, and the visuals, while fine I guess, weren't anything special to me. I'm glad people liked it, but it wasn't for me.

 

Bubsy's a pretty awful looking game in my eyes. I dig Zool 2's visual style though, it's very colorful with big objects and is generally pleasing to look at from start to finish.

 

I have to reserve judgement on Jumping At Shadows as I've only seen a few gameplay videos of it. I have no idea how much variety there will be to its visuals. If Reboot offers a cheaper ROM of it on their Patreon, I might check it out, but I'll be passing if I have to resort to a $70+ cartridge. I've got too many other games to play, and too little time.

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, Austin said:

 

 

I have to reserve judgement on Jumping At Shadows as I've only seen a few gameplay videos of it. I have no idea how much variety there will be to its visuals. If Reboot offers a cheaper ROM of it on their Patreon, I might check it out, but I'll be passing if I have to resort to a $70+ cartridge. I've got too many other games to play, and too little time.

There is a free demo since 2022, so....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:03 PM by agradeneu

[Austin]

Just now, agradeneu said:

There is a free demo, so....

Full game or bust for me. Like I said.. too many games, too little time.

[agradeneu]

Just now, Austin said:

Full game or bust for me. Like I said.. too many games, too little time.

Play or shut up.

 

 

[Austin]

Just now, agradeneu said:

Play or shut up.

Um.. no?

[Lost Monkey]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 

 

What is AAA on the Jaguar, can you define that?

I would say that T2K and Rayman are about as polished and engaging as a Jaguar game has ever been.  Wouldn't be AAA on most other consoles though.

 

Runners up:

AVP

Iron Soldier

NBA Jam

 

[Goochman]

Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, Primal Rage

[leech]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Common sense is not goin' into a "Metallica" forum and write there how their music sucked or why they did not make better music. 

 

You should not complain  if they kicked you out with a vengeance.

 

 

 

Let's be fair, their early stuff was awesome, then they sold out and now suck. 

[leech]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

What is AAA on the Jaguar, can you define that? 

Most people can't even define AAA at all.  Is it budget?  It is that it has a massive studio behind it?  Is it just that it looks shiny, or has DLC or that it plays online?  Some people also throw around the term home brew everywhere.  Does that mean literally something someone 'brewed at home' which is how many games back in the 80s were done.  Hell, the early Ultima games were coded in the back of the shop Richard Garriott was working at.  For me, home brew means that someone took a console, somehow figured out how to code for it, as that wasn't a normal thing to happen.  For computers... it just means 'I coded something' as that was the intention.  Once you get a commercial / physical release... it's no longer a homebrew.

 

Some of course term it as 'published after the console was commercially dead.' but just because something isn't sold anymore, doesn't mean people can't still enjoy it.

 

Back on the AAA thing... for most it means budget, or a game that at least looks like it has a massive budget.  With how you can get assets and cheap engines all done, there have been some single developer teams that have made massive and epic games that certainly seem better than most AAA games out there.  Money isn't everything, especially when it comes to games.  Just like graphics aren't everything.  It's all about the enjoyment / entertainment you can get out of it, and the Jaguar, if rated this way, has plenty of AAA titles!

[leech]

5 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Because the ports are "hacks" of ST binaries that require a great knowledge of the ST and Jaguar.

 

Ports of Amiga would require a dev knowing the Amiga hardware inside out.

 

Remasters of ST games would require the access to the full art assets and an artist interrested to touch them up. 

While yes, they have great knowledge of the ST, the ST's graphics (and I could be completely off base here) is mostly just a framebuffer.  Earlier STs didn't even have a blitter.  There are plenty of Amiga devs that really know the internals of it.  Though they're just as likely to release a new game on the Amiga than they would port something to the Jaguar.  It'd be awesome if we had some sort of 'CD32 Launcher' to add those games to the library of the JagCD... I wonder how possible that'd be.  'ChatGPT, teach me how to code for the JagCD' 'I'm sorry, Dave, I cannot do that...'

[Lostdragon]

5 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Sorry, but it's clear to me that you don't. You're very passionate about the Jaguar, and I respect that (I only like the platform, like almost every platform, and certainly don't love it in that way), but I'm disappointed that you took it as some type of attack. To summarize and maybe simplify (for the last time), I said I hope/expect Jaguar homebrew development to hit AAA levels, which I define as deep experiences that use every technical trick in the book, on a more consistent basis, within the next five years. I used the Sega Genesis/MD as an example. It took many years for it to reach the high levels it's at now, with very long, deep, and technically impressive games. The Jaguar may never reach those levels, but I'm offering my opinion of what I'd like to see. If you think the Jaguar is already there, so be it, but I don't agree. I'd like to go "wow" with the Jaguar on more occasions like I do on some other platforms, both console and computer. I genuinely think the potential is there.

 

Let me put it another way and ask you a question. Do you think we've reached the pinnacle of Atari Jaguar game development? Have we hit the ceiling? Is Xenowings the best we'll get? I think there's still more for the Jaguar, and future devs, to give. Using the three examples I used for the Genesis/MD, I don't think that platform will be able to do much better. It's effectively peaked (and in this case, that's not a bad thing, it just means that we'll be able to get more games at those levels).

I'd be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on Falken Angels Bill, as for myself, it's probably THE title i honestly wish I had kept my Jaguar for. 

 

 

The very fact it was a  Remake of "Rescue on Fractalus" for starters.. 

 

 

It (in my eyes) uses the Jaguar hardware extremely well, using a height-mapping engine etc. 

 

And it's exactly the type of remade for modern hardware game, i so badly wanted as a Jaguar owner, during it's commercial lifespan, but never got. 

 

 

Do i expect Skyhammer 3D pushing style games on the Jaguar within the next 5 years or at all? 

 

 

(I personally feel Skyhammer is the title that pushed the Jaguar to it's known limits during that period of time, i could well be mistaken though,but it's definitely a Triple-A title and great showcase for the platform). 

 

No. 

 

Look at the resources involved in creating such a title.. 

 

 

Game Concept Created by    Chris KingsleyJason Kingsley

Technical Director    Chris Kingsley

Creative Director    Jason Kingsley

Executive Producer at Atari    John Skruch

Producer at Atari    Ted Tahquechi

Programmed by    Chris FoxChris KingsleyChris BlackmoreAlex QuarmbyAnt Lee

Artwork and Graphics by    Jason KingsleyWes WhiteBernard H. WoodGraham Hopkins

Sound by    John BrydenAlex QuarmbyMark TolleyWill Davis (With Thanks To)

Music by    John BrydenAlex QuarmbyMark TolleyWill Davis (With Thanks To)

Computer Voices by    Kristy Downing

Cockpit Model Built by    Bernard H. Wood

 

 

Rebellion have never as far as i am aware, stated the development budget for it, but it must of been substantial for them. 

 

I'm also with you on a few other points, i am an Ex-Lynx owner, i put a lot of time and money into the platform during it's commercial life, owned a MK 1 and MK 2 model again, wish I had kept it, new screen tech, fantastic Homebrew scene makes returning to it tempting at times. 

 

Had 2 Jaguar's day 1 launch model picked another up second hand many years after it died commercially. 

 

I've put time in researching Lost Games on both,as well as games for other systems i owned at one  time , haven't since:The C64, MD, ST etc. 

 

I find the unreleased games aspect of a platform fascinating. 

 

This is a community, all views should be welcome,sensible, engaging discussion encouraged. 

 

# Actually.. Gravitic Mines is another Homebrew title that had me wishing i had kept the Jaguar and exactly the type of game i wanted during it's commercial lifespan, it's literally a love letter to the type of games i played on the C64,, ST, MD and later PS3, (Thrust, Oids, Sub-Terrania, Gravity Crash etc.. not Thrust II, they ballsed that right up 😭) 

 

 

It looks gorgeous.  😍

 

But i am not a gamer these days, i just have the utmost admiration for the people who made Fallen Angels and Gravitic Mines possible. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:48 PM by Lostdragon