What could have saved the Jag?

[Bill Loguidice]

8 minutes ago, leech said:

Most people can't even define AAA at all.  Is it budget?  It is that it has a massive studio behind it?  Is it just that it looks shiny, or has DLC or that it plays online?  Some people also throw around the term home brew everywhere.  Does that mean literally something someone 'brewed at home' which is how many games back in the 80s were done.  Hell, the early Ultima games were coded in the back of the shop Richard Garriott was working at.  For me, home brew means that someone took a console, somehow figured out how to code for it, as that wasn't a normal thing to happen.  For computers... it just means 'I coded something' as that was the intention.  Once you get a commercial / physical release... it's no longer a homebrew.

 

Some of course term it as 'published after the console was commercially dead.' but just because something isn't sold anymore, doesn't mean people can't still enjoy it.

 

Back on the AAA thing... for most it means budget, or a game that at least looks like it has a massive budget.  With how you can get assets and cheap engines all done, there have been some single developer teams that have made massive and epic games that certainly seem better than most AAA games out there.  Money isn't everything, especially when it comes to games.  Just like graphics aren't everything.  It's all about the enjoyment / entertainment you can get out of it, and the Jaguar, if rated this way, has plenty of AAA titles!

In my case, I didn't mean budget, obviously, since homebrew stuff really can't have that type of budget. So, for me and my usage, and for purposes of this discussion, what I meant by a AAA homebrew is nothing more than an audio-visually polished game with deep gameplay elements and that impresses with eye candy, special effects, features, cut scenes, pushing technical limits of the hardware, etc. In short, something that's a match for, or again, exceeds, the VERY BEST commercial titles from when a platform was relevant. To me, this means you can take the homebrew, travel back in time, and it immediately becomes an 8, 9, or 10 (out of 10) for the platform when it was still an ongoing commercial concern and might raise a few eyebrows for some of the tricks it pulls off relative to other titles. 

So, to go back to the three top-of-mind examples I gave for the Sega Genesis/MD (again, I can do this with many console and computer platforms that still have new software made for them and are basically "topped out" in terms of being pushed), you have something like this:
 

 

That's a good example (and not even necessarily the best example), because it has high-quality audio-visuals, lots of different gameplay elements, including a first person mode, and plenty of nifty special effects. My point was, it took the Genesis quite a while to get homebrews like this on a regular basis, and I look forward to the expected eventual equivalent (and regularity) on the Jaguar. I get it's a smaller market, etc., but I feel like we're headed there within the next 5 years, including with the influx of expertise, more modern resources, etc. Again, it's absolutely not a dig at what's been produced or being produced, it's a look to the future as things are continuing to be built. You go back several years in the Jaguar's homebrew resurgence and you don't have the same quality you have now. So yeah, it's OK to expect that to continue.

[alucardX]

33 minutes ago, leech said:

Let's be fair, their early stuff was awesome, then they sold out and now suck. 

I'm calling Lars. Now you're in for it, just ask Shawn Fanning.

[Bill Loguidice]

8 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

I'd be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on Falken Angels Bill, as for myself, it's probably THE title i honestly wish I had kept my Jaguar for. 

 

 

The very fact it was a  Remake of "Rescue on Fractalus" for starters.. 

 

 

It (in my eyes) uses the Jaguar hardware extremely well, using a height-mapping engine etc. 

And it's exactly the type of remade for modern hardware game, i so badly wanted as a Jaguar owner, during it's commercial lifespan, but never got. 

 

I don't recall Falken Angels, but looking at it, it's definitely neat. I don't really count demos, though, as we've seen lots of demos on the Jaguar. Once you add in a bunch of gameplay elements, things can take the turn for the worse.

 

Quote

Do i expect Skyhammer 3D pushing style games on the Jaguar within the next 5 years or at all? 

 

 

(I personally feel Skyhammer is the title that pushed the Jaguar to it's known limits during that period of time, i could well be mistaken though,but it's definitely a Triple-A title and great showcase for the platform). 

 

No. 

 

Look at the resources involved in creating such a title...

Absolutely in terms of resources, which is always the issue, but the Jaguar scene has been improving and growing steadily, so the issue of resources should also continue to go down in term versus what's required to make something special. It's certainly happened with other platforms, although obviously even now many of those other platforms have larger communities.

 

Quote

# Actually.. Gravitic Mines is another Homebrew title that had me wishing i had kept the Jaguar and exactly the type of game i wanted during it's commercial lifespan, it's literally a love letter to the type of games i played on the C64, MD and later PS3, it looks gorgeous. 

 

But i am not a gamer these days, i just have the utmost admiration for the people who made Fallen Angels and Gravitic Mines possible. 

I'm fortunate to have Gravitic Mines in my cartridge collection. I'm a sucker for Thrust-style games (I'm also a sucker for games that make use of the spinner on the Jaguar, but that's a different discussion). In any case, Gravitic Mines is wonderfully executed and I certainly enjoy it (it IS hard, though, at least for me), and certainly put it in the upper echelon of Jaguar homebrews, but I'm not sure for me personally I'd classify it as AAA. It's more like a low single A/high B, as it's a fairly straightforward execution on a relatively simple concept. I guess I just expect a bit more from the Jaguar, and maybe that's on me (maybe just a bit more is not really there). I really want things we couldn't see on the 16-bit consoles beyond just more colors and (maybe) improved sound. 

[alucardX]

I also think of the Jaguar as being in a difficult space for competing against the SNES / Gen/MD due to the fact that if you handle art correctly then the color palette for those two systems looks like enough in 2D. The push for Jag 3D did differentiate it from those systems but then PSX and Saturn were just around the corner. I really think that games like Jumping at Shadows are leveraging what the Jag does best. I really hope to see more games at that level coming out. Neat little graphical gimmicks like what we began to see in DKC 1-3 or in that video @Bill Loguidice shared for the recent Gen/MD release would be fun.

[agradeneu]

53 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

So, to go back to the three top-of-mind examples I gave for the Sega Genesis/MD (again, I can do this with many console and computer platforms that still have new software made for them and are basically "topped out" in terms of being pushed), you have something like this:
 

 

That's a good example (and not even necessarily the best example), because it has high-quality audio-visuals, lots of different gameplay elements, including a first person mode, and plenty of nifty special effects. 

Sorry, but we are already better than this.

 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

11 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Sorry, but we are already better than this.

 

 

And? Care to elaborate, or just "because I said so"? You're not distracted by anything else now, so you should be able to respond to this one.

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

In my case, I didn't mean budget, obviously, since homebrew stuff really can't have that type of budget. So, for me and my usage, and for purposes of this discussion, what I meant by a AAA homebrew is nothing more than an audio-visually polished game with deep gameplay elements and that impresses with eye candy, special effects, features, cut scenes, pushing technical limits of the hardware, etc. In short, something that's a match for, or again, exceeds, the VERY BEST commercial titles from when a platform was relevant. To me, this means you can take the homebrew, travel back in time, and it immediately becomes an 8, 9, or 10 (out of 10) for the platform when it was still an ongoing commercial concern and might raise a few eyebrows for some of the tricks it pulls off relative to other titles. 

So, to go back to the three top-of-mind examples I gave for the Sega Genesis/MD (again, I can do this with many console and computer platforms that still have new software made for them and are basically "topped out" in terms of being pushed), you have something like this:
 

 

That's a good example (and not even necessarily the best example), because it has high-quality audio-visuals, lots of different gameplay elements, including a first person mode, and plenty of nifty special effects. My point was, it took the Genesis quite a while to get homebrews like this on a regular basis, and I look forward to the expected eventual equivalent (and regularity) on the Jaguar. I get it's a smaller market, etc., but I feel like we're headed there within the next 5 years, including with the influx of expertise, more modern resources, etc. Again, it's absolutely not a dig at what's been produced or being produced, it's a look to the future as things are continuing to be built. You go back several years in the Jaguar's homebrew resurgence and you don't have the same quality you have now. So yeah, it's OK to expect that to continue.

 

That's bad ass. And its for the Genesis? Wonder if they're selling roms.

[Bill Loguidice]

5 minutes ago, JagChris said:

 

That's bad ass. And its for the Genesis? Wonder if they're selling roms.

It is and I believe they do/will. Again, also check out the similarly recent Black Jewel Reborn and ZPF, which are also impressive in scope/ambition. I'd love to see what the Jaguar's extra oomph could do with that type of equivalent effort.

[leech]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

In my case, I didn't mean budget, obviously, since homebrew stuff really can't have that type of budget. So, for me and my usage, and for purposes of this discussion, what I meant by a AAA homebrew is nothing more than an audio-visually polished game with deep gameplay elements and that impresses with eye candy, special effects, features, cut scenes, pushing technical limits of the hardware, etc.

In this case it's a budget of time vs budget of cash.  Though in your example game, they used kickstarter to get the cash.  But I mentioned such in my original comment about AAA, there can be single devs that release a high quality game using some crazy skills (Star Dew Valley, Kenshi, etc).

[Bill Loguidice]

7 minutes ago, leech said:

In this case it's a budget of time vs budget of cash.  Though in your example game, they used kickstarter to get the cash.  But I mentioned such in my original comment about AAA, there can be single devs that release a high quality game using some crazy skills (Star Dew Valley, Kenshi, etc).

True, but the three crowdfunded games I mentioned had fully working demos well before asking for money. I believe the funds in each case are used to finish (and continue to polish) development, add any appropriate stretch goals, and create the various physical rewards. In theory, the same process could apply to the Jaguar and other, more niche, platforms. It would definitely require a certain commitment and some risk taking (as in proving that it can be done for a particular platform like the Jaguar).

 

EDIT: And to respond to last sentence, absolutely, and that was also what I implied with mention of continued improvement in tools and related resources over time (hence the within five years estimate), requiring fewer people and/or specific skillsets. That will naturally lead to even more quantity, and eventually even more quality with the same team sizes available now.

Edited Wednesday at 10:30 PM by Bill Loguidice

[+CyranoJ]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

True, but the three crowdfunded games I mentioned had fully working demos well before asking for money. I believe the funds in each case are used to finish (and continue to polish) development, add any appropriate stretch goals, and create the various physical rewards. In theory, the same process could apply to the Jaguar and other, more niche, platforms. It would definitely require a certain commitment and some risk taking (as in proving that it can be done for a particular platform like the Jaguar).

 

Well, thats absolutely insane and well beyond any reasonable expectations.

 

Just look at Orion's kickstarter for MULTIPLE PLATFORMS that still hasn't been funded, and you expect a Jaguar only one to hit funds?

To be honest, all your expectations are in the 'whacko insane land'

 

Dismissing ST ports, when they hit all your criteria?

 

Large teams

Extensive budget in the tens of thousands

Extensive publicity campaigns

Extreme product testing (No after sales patching!)

Multiple levels

Complex game design

 

If you don't think XenoWings or Shadows are well beyond anything that came in the commercial era then I don't know how to educate you, but then again, you did spend years pimping AtGames shit as the bees-knees to everyone...

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

Well, thats absolutely insane and well beyond any reasonable expectations.

 

Just look at Orion's kickstarter for MULTIPLE PLATFORMS that still hasn't been funded, and you expect a Jaguar only one to hit funds?

To be honest, all your expectations are in the 'whacko insane land'

 

Dismissing ST ports, when they hit all your criteria?

 

Large teams

Extensive budget in the tens of thousands

Extensive publicity campaigns

Extreme product testing (No after sales patching!)

Multiple levels

Complex game design

 

If you don't think XenoWings or Shadows are well beyond anything that came in the commercial era then I don't know how to educate you, but then again, you did spend years pimping AtGames shit as the bees-knees to everyone...

I certainly didn't dismiss ST ports, so it's frustrating you would even imply that. They're a valuable addition to the Jaguar library (and, as stated, I gladly pre-ordered Rocket Ranger). But, they're still not optimized for the Jaguar, especially visually. I hope even someone like you can understand the difference when I clearly stated something made with the Jaguar and its features in mind versus a straight-up port.

If you believe that Xenowings is the best the Jaguar can do, then so be it. It's your opinion. I don't agree that's the limit, but if it is, that says a lot about the Jaguar I guess. 

And obsessed with AtGames much? It's incredibly juvenile. I don't really block people because I always think it's worth having thoughtful discussions about things and friendly disagreements, but you sure are making it tempting to make the exception.

[+CyranoJ]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

If you believe that Xenowings is the best the Jaguar can do, then so be it. It's your opinion. I don't agree that's the limit, but if it is, that says a lot about the Jaguar I guess.

 

I certainly don't believe that, nor Shadows.  However what I do believe is that not every AAA games makes the best possible use of its system. Just check steam or any other console in existence.

 

Do you really believe SuperMario pushed the SNES to breaking point? I guess that wasn't AAA to you?  What about Crazy Taxi on the Dreamcast? Surely the best 3D ever on the system, but I guess that wasn't AAA to you either.  Your argument is so flawed its not worth countering further.

[leech]

What would be nice is this to add more platforms for ports.  https://philreichert.org/commodore-amiga/scorpion-game-engine.html

[+Stephen]

Guys - why are we all piling on Bill? He is not trashing the efforts of these latest releases.  I understand what he is saying.  Five years ago, Jag releases were sort of meh.  Now, Jag releases are pretty damn good, almost as good as what we got back in the day.  If, in the next 5 years, the increase in quality remains linear, then we are going to have some really damn good stuff.  I believe he said this in good faith - in an optimistic way.  There's plenty of reasons to get mad at people for slagging releases.  But don't get so caught up in someone having a differing opinion.  I don't think he meant to offend anybody.

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

And? Care to elaborate, or just "because I said so"? You're not distracted by anything else now, so you should be able to respond to this one.

Its a waste of time to argue about Taste, ok? 

I can only say that we put as much effort and love into a game like everyone else on any system. At a top level, and nothing less. 

You are not in the position to lecture anyone about how a Jaguar homebrew should be done. Hyping Genesis homebrews like a Cheerleader on crack does not give your miserable trolling attempts any merit. Its stupid and disrespectful.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:25 AM by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Guys - why are we all piling on Bill? He is not trashing the efforts of these latest releases.  I understand what he is saying.  Five years ago, Jag releases were sort of meh.  Now, Jag releases are pretty damn good, almost as good as what we got back in the day.  If, in the next 5 years, the increase in quality remains linear, then we are going to have some really damn good stuff.  I believe he said this in good faith - in an optimistic way.  There's plenty of reasons to get mad at people for slagging releases.  But don't get so caught up in someone having a differing opinion.  I don't think he meant to offend anybody.

I think you have missed the plot.

[+Stephen]

11 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I think you have missed the plot.

I may - I am trying to maintain positive (not naive) attitude and keep a small community that is always in flames, in a decent state.  I am sorry - I know this is not always possible.  I've bought Xenowings and Jumping At Shadows.  To me, they are both AAA titles.  I've had my Jag since early 1994.

 

Peace - I do not have the energy in my life for negativity over video games when I am watching close family members die.  I'll not post any more here, nor will I try to interject positivity into the universe.

[phoenixdownita]

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

... when I am watching close family members die.  

I am truly sorry for your loss.

 

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

I may - I am trying to maintain positive (not naive) attitude and keep a small community that is always in flames, in a decent state.  I am sorry - I know this is not always possible.  I've bought Xenowings and Jumping At Shadows.  To me, they are both AAA titles.  I've had my Jag since early 1994.

 

Peace - I do not have the energy in my life for negativity over video games when I am watching close family members die.  I'll not post any more here, nor will I try to interject positivity into the universe.

Thats unfortunate, you are a keeper in the Jag community. Thanks for all the support. Sorry to hear about your loss, my condolences.

[+Sauron]

Man, what a shitshow this thread has become. As someone who's been reading from the sidelines for a while, let me make a few points here:

 

1. Bill isn't intentionally trashing any of the Jag homebrews in any way. I think some of you are reading a bit too much into what he's saying.

 

2. Bill's definition of "AAA Homebrews" is hazy at best. When you're pulling in thousands of dollars for creating a game regardless of which console it's for, you've ventured outside the bounds of what a homebrew typically is, at least IMO.

 

3. There's simply no way anyone is going to be able to do a full-fledged "big budget" homebrew for the Jag that involves a Kickstarter bringing in thousands of dollars. That just isn't gonna happen, at least not without a larger team effort than what we've seen so far, and with a game that would have to be ported to multiple other platforms - at which point it's not really a "Jag homebrew". 

 

The Jag community just isn't big enough to support the efforts of a quasi-commercial release, unlike what you're seeing from other platforms like Genesis homebrews, or others who are following the Neo Geo Dev Team model. That said, anyone bagging on Jumping at Shadows as NOT being an impressive game both visually and gameplay-wise simply hasn't played it. It's the best Jag homebrew yet released, and not being a texture-mapped 3D game running at more than 5fps doesn't change that fact.

 

 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

28 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Its a waste of time to argue about Taste, ok? 

I can only say that we put as much effort and love into a game like everyone else on any system. At a top level, and nothing less. 

You are not in the position to lecture anyone about how a Jaguar homebrew should be done. Hyping Genesis homebrews like a Cheerleader on crack does not give your miserable trolling attempts any merit. Its stupid and disrespectful.

 

 

You are so sensitive and dense, it's painful. I gave reasoned arguments and examples. You chose to bizarrely take "it" personally and flat out ignore just about everything I said and twist statements to fit your own weird narrative. Don't worry, though, we'll never interact again. It's just not worth trying to get through to you. It's literally impossible. There's clearly some type of barrier.

[agradeneu]

12 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You are so sensitive and dense, it's painful. I gave reasoned arguments and examples. You chose to bizarrely take "it" personally and flat out ignore just about everything I said and twist statements to fit your own weird narrative. Don't worry, though, we'll never interact again. It's just not worth trying to get through to you. It's literally impossible. There's clearly some type of barrier.

Iam not asking for your Interaction, especially if its that hostile and manipulative. 

You contributed nothing, except being a pretentious narcisstic troll trying to disregard everything people love. Wasnt it you saying that Lynx had incredibly weak games? Now you are doing the same bs with Jaguar homebrews. I really hope you would fix your frustration issues and contribute something positive, or leave this place alone for good.

Edited yesterday at 12:57 AM by agradeneu

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

 

 

The Jag community just isn't big enough to support the efforts of a quasi-commercial release, unlike what you're seeing from other platforms like Genesis homebrews, or others who are following the Neo Geo Dev Team model. That said, anyone bagging on Jumping at Shadows as NOT being an impressive game both visually and gameplay-wise simply hasn't played it. It's the best Jag homebrew yet released, and not being a texture-mapped 3D game running at more than 5fps doesn't change that fact.

 

 

 

That's exactly what I mean. That's a fair argument and one I don't necessarily disagree with, although I still don't think Jumping at Shadows is at the apex of the performance curve. It just has unusually well-done aesthetics for a Jaguar title and an original, thoughtful game design. It's a stand-out title for the platform, and would be welcome on just about any other platform I can think of. It's just not quite what I meant in terms of pushing the Jaguar's limits.

 

As I've said, I think over time we'll get more releases of higher caliber like that, much like other, larger platforms. It's obviously been trending in that direction and should only continue getting better going forward, for various reasons. That takes nothing away from existing efforts or games (or from the past, for that matter), which are all necessary steps in the process.

[Bill Loguidice]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Iam not asking for your Interaction, especially if its that hostile and manipulative. 

You contributed nothing, except being a pretentious narcisstic troll trying to disregard everything people love. Wasnt it you saying that Lynx had incredibly weak games? Now you are doing the same bs with Jaguar homebrews. I really hope you would fix your frustration issues and contribute something positive, or leave this place alone for good.

You seem to regularly ask people to leave. And again with taking my comments completely out of context and changing their actual meaning and intention, this time with the Lynx. I'd appreciate you stopping that. I'm telling you, your interpretations are very wrong.