games are crap...

[TMR]

TMR -- what do you mean -- the C64 and Spectrum were infested with utter shite software in piles for every Armalyte or Turrican.

 

We're talking relational jumps; the difference between a 1982 and a 1985 game was relatively about the same for either machine, the difference for a 1985 to a 1989 game is more marked on the C64. i tend to stick to shoot-em-ups for examples because i stay with what i know, but it's true of other genres.

 

And yeah, the signal/noise ratio is the same on most platforms, but even the games with bugger all playability sometimes looked impressive on the C64. If we're talking reasons that games sell, the screenshots on the back of a box or in a review surely counts towards some of that?

 

All these platforms have a equal share of crappy and good games, just remember the 800 was around 3 years before the C64 and Spectrum, so many games were produced before those machines were even released, a simpler market, less sophisticted perhaps...

 

That's also three more years to learn the hardware backwards. And the Spectrum has absolutely nothing under the hood to power games so those guys were hitting the hardware even harder than the C64 coders.

 

I'm know that both the games you cite are great, and pushed the C64 at the time of their release, much the same as like games such as Koronis Rift and The Eidolon did for the Atari at the time of their release. Its no new story here...

 

Yes there is, you're pointing to the decline of the 8bit market and yet only some 8bits had a decline in quality of software. Now, since Armalyte wasn't developed in-house but knocked up by two coders and a graphics man in a back room, where are the equivalent teams for the Atari? Since Turrican was built by a two man team working in-house, why wasn't it crippled by the short production life you listed as a reason previously?

 

This is what i don't understand, these reasons only seem to apply to one market and i'm wondering why...?

 

This does not HAPPEN by the way-- That's why you write the colour engine into the spec before he/she realises what you've done... =-) if your project manager is al least half smart, so no points there

 

Hmm, he must have a deadline due - no sense of humour... =-)

[Bryan]

That's also three more years to learn the hardware backwards.

 

Atari wasn't forthcoming with the hardware specs for quite a while.

 

-Bry

[TMR]

That's also three more years to learn the hardware backwards.

 

Atari wasn't forthcoming with the hardware specs for quite a while.

 

Ever read the C64 Programmers Reference Guide...? =-)

[Bryan]

That's also three more years to learn the hardware backwards.

 

Atari wasn't forthcoming with the hardware specs for quite a while.

 

Ever read the C64 Programmers Reference Guide...? =-)

 

Actually, yes. It's not _that_ bad. I think if there had been communication between users back in the day, then better programming info about the Atari would have gotten around, but in 1980 all you had were whatever documents you could get your hands on.

 

-Bry

[emkay]

That's also three more years to learn the hardware backwards.

 

Atari wasn't forthcoming with the hardware specs for quite a while.

 

Ever read the C64 Programmers Reference Guide...? =-)

 

The "reference guide" from ATARI was useless to create better looking and sounding games. Nothing I did in ADMIRANDUS was descriped in one of the "Books".... neither the triple resolution in one scanline nor the 16Bit filtering of POKEY-sound was explained with a single syllable.

I think, that the worse R.G. from ATARI stopped (or slowed down) any further development.

[Heaven/TQA]

which game type is the best for the little machine???

[Randy California]

Let's try the good old market by market approach to track down the causes of the demise...

 

US

A lot of people thought the Atari 8-bit computers reached their technical peak in 1984-5 with Ballblazer, Alternate Reality... Lack of support in the US after 1986 did the rest (see one of my previous posts).

 

UK

I'd say one of the biggest problems in the UK from the beginning was with distribution (can you confirm this JBJ?). Not only did Atari completely blew it there but the magazine effort was pointless (no Zzap! or Crash to boost sales or development)... Sure, there was some stuff from the budget houses, big titles from time to time (Trailblazer, Gauntlet, Arkanoid...), Zeppelin Games but that's about all... Forgot about Red Rat Software and English Software but half of their catalog was a bit shitty...

 

Germany

The A8 was very successful in Germany (and the Netherlands) but (correct me if I'm wrong emkay) I think there weren't big software companies to push the computer at the time. Apart from Ariola, I can't think of another big publisher in 1984-5... Big club (ABBUC...) and magazine involvement there.

 

Eastern Europe

The Atari 8-bit line sold like hot cakes in Eastern Europe, which led to the creation of a REAL demo scene (now that's one thing that helped the C64 a lot) and software companies (LK Avalon, Mirage Software, ASF...). Technically, the stuff was a step forward, even if half of the games lacked originality or were direct rip-offs or quick conversions (check Special Forces on the Atari and Operation Hanoi on the C64 to see what I mean...). A lot of these coders came from the demo scene, probably an explanation to the budget-like appearance of some of the games.

 

All these factors leading to no progress or regression in the programming techniques. Comments?

 

++

RC

++

[Heaven/TQA]

hmmm.... just found out today reading eutechnyx webside that they were zeppelin games in the past... strange... i love zeppelin games esp. for the music and then 10 years later you are working for a company publishing eutechnyx' racing games......

 

sorry... off topic...

 

hve

[Jetboot Jack]

TMR,

 

Armalyte, Turrican -- both were coded up by small teams over relativley long periods, nothing like the commercial reality that many Atari games were produced under in the 80's. Atari, Datasoft, Activision, Microprose etc were/are real companies, with premesis, overheads, staff etc, so their games were produced to defined deadlines, much like most games are made now. So yes there is a cultural difference here....

 

Many European games were produced by some mates, over long periods, with no overheads and LOTS of my computer is the best enthusiasm. Often games released by UK companies in the 80's/early 90's were brought to them by individuals/small teams and they were very often massivley underpaid by their publishers at signing, getting into contracts often so heavily back loaded that the developer saw nothing after the signing check -- I know I was there, underpaid and over keen!

 

sTeVE

[+Sauron]

I think much of the reason why you haven't seen A8 titles really push the hardware is because the market was non-existent in 1986-1989. Meanwhile, those same years probably saw the peak of the C64's popularity, explaining why developers were much more keen on pushing the C64's hardware than the A8. It's only been recently that people (at least here in the US) have come back to it in any number, whereas the C64 has remained in use by a large number of people all this time. In fact, Tulip Computers (current owners of Commodore) have estimated that over 6 MILLION (!) C64s are still in use today! If I was developing software for an already crowded market with a userbase that size, I would be a little more motivated to really make my product stand out from it's competition, for more reasons than just pride. The same simply can't be said of anyone developing for the A8. Sometimes pride itself just isn't a big enough motivational tool, or as effective as the almighty dollar (or Euro, or Pound Sterling, or whatever).

[TMR]

Armalyte, Turrican -- both were coded up by small teams over relativley long periods, nothing like the commercial reality that many Atari games were produced under in the 80's. Atari, Datasoft, Activision, Microprose etc were/are real companies, with premesis, overheads, staff etc, so their games were produced to defined deadlines, much like most games are made now. So yes there is a cultural difference here....

 

Okay, so i suppose my real question is why was there a difference? Why did these commercial pressures only affect certain markets and suppress backroom coders? As you said, Armalyte and Turrican were done over relatively long periods, surely the C64 wasn't that viable a market that it could still demand more attention at that point in time...? We're talking around 1988 to 1990 here, fairly major 16bit territory.

 

Often games released by UK companies in the 80's/early 90's were brought to them by individuals/small teams and they were very often massivley underpaid by their publishers at signing, getting into contracts often so heavily back loaded that the developer saw nothing after the signing check -- I know I was there, underpaid and over keen!

 

Same here... got paid for work on a game that was then deemed not to fit in with Mastertronic's publishing schedule... The game escaped eventually. =-)