Atari SW database with help for users, experience

[ParanoidLittleMan]

We have plenty of sites holding tons of floppy images (some call them ROM images (still in console terminology ?), then there is for instance Gamebase ST with plenty of games in format easy to start in emulator.  And there is TOSEC for instance - large archive with images to DL.

All it contain mostly same 'material' - images done by different people, submitted, quickly checked, or no checked at all. Added to site, and then it is copied to other site(s) . Often without any asking - and that self is not worst thing. Worst thing is that practically nobody has clue about how really good that image is.

I remember cases around 2005 when I save even corrupted ZIP files on diverse hosts - like ZIP containing menu disk image is 40 KB - no way, there is packed data already in usually 800 KB disk format, so no way that it can be ZIP-ped to 40 KB. And yes, trying to open it results in error message.

Those images are not anymore present, so were removed after complains, I guess. But there are still bad images everywhere.

 

Extreme example is Son Shu Shi . There is only 1 crack available in fact, and funny thing is that game was over years on Atarimania STOT - online tournament. And they did not see that at some level it can not be played normally. Well, myself did not notice error when did hard disk adaptation - I played only 1 level thru. Luckily one Atari fan reported me the problem at level 3, if remember correct - then I played little more and experienced same. Examining said that data is corrupted - and that was end of what can do without flawless image. What still did not emerge in passed some 10 years.

 

Beside possibly bad images, cracks etc. there are other problems - like TOS version incompatibility, some silly RAM size related problems, and like.

And there is lot of people in last year especially, joining Atari ST retro fan club. So, maybe to help them, and not only them - even experienced ST users can be lost in all this. 

 

So, I will revitalize my old idea of Atari ST game, SW database soon.  Here is old rough, experimental design of table for it:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/atarigcl.html

 

Currently, I have  http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTGA/astgam.php

Example page:  http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTGA/9/10thFrame.php

There is info about on which TOS versions it works. And DL, even some helping SW.

New database should have more fields for usual problems, field(s) for user submissions - and that's the only way. Testing, playing thoroughly takes plenty of time.

All in all, I would like to make step ahead in direction of not only collecting, but take care about quality of it, then even more important: making it easily usable, fun for all interested people.

 

 

 

[TGB1718]

Nice idea, one thing missing on most sites are game instructions, if there's a scan, maybe a link to that, or maybe a text file

with a "quick start guide"

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Instructions are useful, but point is in mentioned things - TOS v. compatibility and like.

On Atarimania there are many manuals on game's page.  And little googling can help, of course. In many cases I found Amiga v. instructions and that was pretty much good for ST version.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Well, this seems that I will give up definitely with this idea. People just can not think wide enough, and see how easier this can make running of unknown SW, especially for beginners, or those who changed config, did some upgrade.

Then, as said there are lot of sites holding images of SW, and even on some forums can happen that people post images (recent thread here is good example).

Is the point in "my"  library, collection or like ? That's all nice, but even with google it is really hard to find things thru all those sites, pages, forums.

For me, best what was done so far is atarimania. Pretty complete Atari ST SW database, DL for most of it, then links, user comments contribution. Sadly, it seems that now people behind it loosing motivation little - and I need to say that I don't blame them. It is very ungrateful task, and needs plenty of time. Plus, as it is in saying "word about good things spreads wide, but about bad things much wider" - mostly people just don't care about how much time and effort is really needed for such things, or just takes good job as normal - and that's good, but here is important thing - this kind of job isn't paid.

Unfortunately, this couple years are surely years of going backwards, or maybe couple last decades rather - in many things. What can see everywhere around is lack of sense for wider interest - most just care for self and narrow circle, for short term interest and like. And typically they will use bombastic announces, promotions of it. Yeah, this are years of advertisement, years of lies, exaggeration, money ahead health of population (here, now 80% of adverts on TV are medical product adverts, and they repeat them mindlessly). Why should ordinary hackers be better than so called 'elite' ? 

What about general interest ? For whole humankind, our planet and other living forms on it ? This with old computer SW is just very small thing in all this, and surely not some elementary thing in life. But it does not mean that we should not care to do it best as can, as is possible.

[calimero]

Totaly agree with you. 
 

Peter Joseph have great series about our current state of civilization: “Culture in decline” where he show very nice all problems that you mention in your post.

 

 

Regarding Atari scene, I made “my atari archive” just to save all ST programs that I collect over years and made them available to others and to preserve them. 
 

I try to make it easy as possible for anyone to add or edit content. 
 

I also add “note” section about compatibility but nobody seems to use it  

 

 

[+Philsan]

@calimero, thank you very much for your work!

 

Reccently I discovered and used your website to select and download some apps.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It seems that nobody understands  and cares about big benefit of one well maintained and organized Atari ST SW online data base, with user contributions and experience,  tested SW images, notes about possible incompatibility and it may be more ...

 

Why is it ? Now this will be personal a bit:  I started with this idea at atari-forum. Reaction from atari legend people (who are actually behind that forum) was abysmal. Idiots said that I want it to promote my hard disk patches. That's ridiculous. They were promoted enough already. There is AL site with some kind of game database:  https://www.atarilegend.com

OMG ! The boss is writing about Son Shu Shi ?  Very good coincidence - is he at all aware about that that game has no good image ?  Actually perfect example why we need one central, detailed data base - and if there will be not only 1 it is even better - competition .  What we have now is not it. Closest is atarimania, and that does not mean 'close enough' .

There is guy named marcer, who has some game  compilation online, and even published/sold some DVD with it (including mine stuff, without permission, of course, then one moment removed it because it was 'so bad' (I smelt some bugs there) . Yeah, another perfect example why some might be against - no ! Mine is best ! 

 

Then, there is again new thread from man who wrote lost of his original (game) floppies, and asking what is worth to make image - better said, he wants to make images of stuff what is not already imaged and online (that's what I did myself some 14 years ago, when got lot of it with purchased STE - and it appeared that I have only 1 not present at atarimania, and I did not look on other places) .  Still, it is more complicated. There is image of it online, so no worth to make another one. Yes, if we know for sure that what is online is flawless. And again Son Shu Shi example:  it is like cracked by some 3 teams/persons, so we have 3 of it, so likely at least one of it is good. Wrong, all it is based on same crack. But it is not visible without detailed examination of content.

 

I got recently PM from some self declared game preservation 'activist' , demanding (that's right word) link where can DL 1000 games image. Because he wants to add Atari ST games too to his collection, and to share it.  I replied him that it is not good idea to just horde SW/games. It is made to be used/played.  And some other things. Then he was very disappointed - ah sorry to having different attitude sir.   And yes, all what I can say:  we don't need another copy of it. Even if in this case it is my work. As it says for couple years on start page: we need it to be better tested.

Testing, user contributions/submissions about possible problems, incompatibility are only  way to have all it well checked, and easy to find in one online data base.  Doing just another copy of thousands of floppy images is totally waste of  time and storage space.  And here must say that some managed to make it even worse - with all those a, a2 revisions of same crack (where only boot sector is different) - yeah, bragging with count of images in database is so good - just another example of quantity ahead quality .... Because that is what impressing people.  I don't want cheap impressions - I want that it is done best as possible with reasonable effort , in reasonable time. And it is possible if we have knowledge about subject (floppies, Atari SW/TOS relations and like).  TOSec with only Atari ST game images is more than 7 GB - in reality all it could fit in some 3 GB. But 7 sounds much better let's do so.

I managed to put 1338 hard disk adaptations of games in 1 GB storage space (not packed, it's as it is on disk for usage). And there are pictures of game box (selected part of it) in res 320x273, hi-color in most cases too included. Without them, it would fit in some 800 MB space. I don't want to impress with big numbers (although sheer count of games is big ? ), rather with smart usage of storage space, fast game starts if possible (so not using slow depackers) . In many cases less is more . And even if storage now is cheap, less used space is better - and archivers/packing is not the only way.

 

And when talk is about storage space:  how big MySQL database suggested would be, for like 5000 titles ?  Surely 1 KB for one title is enough - even with some shorter user comments.  So, 5 MB is all what we need folks .  OK, some PHP, MySQL coding too, I guess.   Any volunteers to do that coding ?

 

[+DarkLord]

I've always been impressed with your work Peter. Excellent.

 

Thank you for continuing to support the Atari community. 

 

[cathrynm]

I tried out your 'hard disk' of games and thought that was nice. As a person just looking to play some ST Games on emulator, I think this is the best thing. A nice curated collection of 'stuff that actually works.'  For me, even just looking at 100 games is a lot of work.  Games are big and take time to really play.  Mostly I'm only interested in the major publishers anyway.

 

The big collections/file hoards are a mess of hacker menus, stuff that doesn't work, and crap I don't want to look at.  That 'paradox of choice' comes into play a little bit, and I think having more choice makes the whole thing less good.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

And life proves me again (because in fact things just repeat over and over again with slight variations ? ).

So, game Bubble Bobble, US release - see recent thread here about.  It has usual R.N. Copylock, and will not start if passes it not. Or if that is not cracked well. I did it in short time, and game worked. Made ST floppy image and posted here. Then some nice people may want to spread it - so will DL it, perform about one minute running test - ah, yes this is OK, so goes in collection, WEB site ...

Then someone will copy it from there, etc ...  Extremely stoopid. 

This US edition is from couple years later than European. And luckily I went little later to make hard disk adaptation, knowing that it will take not much time, since have already done Euro version - and most of files is same.  Then I noticed floppy activity right after starting exec file from hard disk - looked it, and there is another R.N. protection test. And it writes 32 bit long key value in RAM, then continues with start - usual title, music etc.  For sure it is so called delayed protection - at some later stage it will check that value in RAM, and if is not correct something bad will happen - like impossible to finish game.

In this case, hard disk adaptation helped in making better floppy version too:  I just would not notice that extra floppy activity when running this from floppy, and then second protection check would remain in, and do mentioned delayed thing.

Additionally, STX image (posted in that Bobble thread here) just works not with TOS 1.62, and probably 2.06 too). Worked with 1.04 . If someone wants to contribute, please test with 1.00, 1.02 ...  Myself did already enough for today, I think.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

So, what fields, data proposed Atari SW database should contain :

 

1. Title , alternative title if exists

2. Year of release of first version

3. Publisher of first version

4. Diverse versions data - years, publishers, version numbers - this can be longer, so only part visible when is shown in table

5. Additional original release info - like number of floppies, for color/monochrome display ....

 

6. Min RAM required for running from floppy - and even here it can depend from TOS version - in some cases 2.06 may need more RAM.

7. TOS version (in)compatibility - list of versions on which works, list on which works not - it needs little knowledge, experience and patience ?

Plus may add what works not on incompatible TOS versions - joystick is it in many cases, but can be mouse too (Tracker) .

 

8. Compatibility with Atari models - ST, STE, Mega STE, TT, Falcon (no I did not forget Mega ST - it is same in this case with ST) .

9. HW compatibility - like needs blitter, some HW what is not standard (factory built in) .

10. Possible silly errors (I call rather so, instead 'incompatible') - indeed silliest is when it works with 512 KB RAM,  but not with more. Or works not with 4 MB - typical case of bad code.

 

11. Experience (and not fan boy biased 'opinions') about diverse 'cracks', 'patches' . Best is when it is played thoroughly.

Indeed this is part where user submissions will come. And that needs some control (some will say censorship) - because there will be for sure diverse 'off topic' submissions.  In any case any 'best' type will be removed for sure. Who wants competition, let create self database site.

 

12. DL locations, links.  User submissions possible. But no need to give link if it is available at atarimania, planetemu, etc.

 

Major DL links will be shown on page.

 

List is not complete. Constructive ideas are welcome - from those who get overall concept and benefits what this can give.

 

 

 

[calimero]

I make a quick chart with tables and fields based on what Petari proposed. 

 

Teere is also Drawio file in attachment.

You can open it with: https://github.com/jgraph/drawio-desktop/releases 

or with online bersion of drawio: https://app.diagrams.net

 

 

 

 

PetariDB.drawio

Edited June 6, 2021 by calimero

[MrMaddog]

Well I am thankful for all the work you've done in not only preserving ST games but also making them run on all TOS versions and off hard drives.

 

So this is the closest we the ST community have to WHDLoad, just a shame it's not as well advertised online.

 

I get you feel burned out at times but have you considered getting some help because projects like these are too much for one person to handle.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Idea is to make this with MySQL database and PHP coded WEB page(s) . Don't see on what exactly can run that drawio, and doubt that my WEB host has support for such thing.

 

MrMaddog:  I don't think that WHDLoad is some general Amiga game database. It is system what supports Amiga gaming from hard disk, and they have own site, pages dedicated to it.  What I want and describe here should include all diverse releases - so original floppies, cracks, hard disk adaptations (patches), done by anyone - and not as direct downloads from my site (except what I made), but links to.

"Burned out" - this is very time consuming, sometimes very boring (tracing diverse, often very 'unpleasant' binary code) ...

And thing is that there is really not much left what is worth to deal with. So, priority now is to make updates of problematic releases, some order, overview of it.  And here use chance to say: some others could do the same, instead coming with 'great ideas' why I want to do this.

 

[calimero]

Drawio is just drawing program...

 

I use it to scatch mysql database...

 

Quote

 

What I want and describe here should include all diverse releases - so original floppies, cracks, hard disk adaptations (patches), done by anyone - and not as direct downloads from my site (except what I made),

I think that with these tables and relations that I draw you can get exactly this functionality. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by calimero

[MrMaddog]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:54 AM, ParanoidLittleMan said:

MrMaddog:  I don't think that WHDLoad is some general Amiga game database. It is system what supports Amiga gaming from hard disk, and they have own site, pages dedicated to it.  What I want and describe here should include all diverse releases - so original floppies, cracks, hard disk adaptations (patches), done by anyone - and not as direct downloads from my site (except what I made), but links to.

 

I appologize then for getting the database idea mixed up with the Hard Drive Adapted website, that's what happenes when I respond to a post too early in the morning...

 

But take my thanks for your efforts anyway as an ST user.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Just spotted another error in TOSEC  - where is btw. really obvious that something is wrong, even without opening ZIP files.

So, Medway Boys Menu blah blah 097.zip is 652993 bytes, while (a) version of it is 296332 bytes. As is said, (a) v. is same, only with different bootsector - so no way that so big size diff happen. And yes, that's some other game/menu disk .

And will it be ever corrected, or just copied to other places, sites as is ? 

As things are, we are in period of not saying thanx when someone points on error in constructive manner - no, we are best, we never made mistake type attitude will rather happen. Or just complete ignoring.  I could give dozens of other examples of errors, which drag over decade, and nothing is corrected or noticed. 

And that stays for almost everything in today society - today you can not say something to salesman - arrogant response will happen in most cases.

Funny thing is that many of them care more  to play some smart man, expert about what they sell (and no, they are practically never experts, knowledge level is very low, + they will lie a lot, just to present it as something best (reminds on some crew in Atari waters ?), instead to just listen to customer and doing what he wants/expects. They lose with that attitude plenty of customers and traffic. Idiot times, this is it.

Ahh, sorry for telling the sad facts - am I the bad guy now, or those who act badly ? If it is clear anymore what is good, what is bad ...