Gaming on the TT, or not!

[Randy]

Well, got the TT up and running and have been eager to try out some games on it.  However, the first 4 games I have tried, Dungeon Master, Elite Frontier, Time Bandit, and Breach, have all bombed.  The first 3 are PP games, with Breach being loaded from floppy as an original game.  These same games have no problem on the Mega STe, is there any games that work on the TT or is it just too incompatible with ST games?

[calimero]

Try Elite II ... it will appreciate 32MHz CPU...

[+DarkLord]

Make a list of games that you want to play but won't run.

 

I'll bet that PPera (can't speak for him, mind you) would

be willing to work on some of them, time allowing.

 

He's been very receptive about requests for troublesome

games that won't work...

 

HTH's. 

 

[Randy]

10 minutes ago, calimero said:

Try Elite II ... it will appreciate 32MHz CPU...

Nope, won't run on the TT

[calimero]

Strange. I read at many places that Elite 2 work on TT. There is a video:

 

  

[Tillek]

55 minutes ago, Randy said:

Well, got the TT up and running and have been eager to try out some games on it.  However, the first 4 games I have tried, Dungeon Master, Elite Frontier, Time Bandit, and Breach, have all bombed.  The first 3 are PP games, with Breach being loaded from floppy as an original game.  These same games have no problem on the Mega STe, is there any games that work on the TT or is it just too incompatible with ST games?

I was pretty sure I got a copy of Breach with my TT (the original owner had an original copy).  Might have been Breach II, but I thought it was the first one.

[anzac]

Isn’t there another thread covering pretty much the same topic?

 

From what I saw ppera already made a reply there. And AFAIK Frontier runs on TT as others have mentioned 

[Randy]

Yes, PP did reply and indicated he may revisit some of those games in the future, most of which were noted as running on the TT except for Breach. As far as Frontier, I can get the loading screen (sometimes) and it seems like it is playing but the in-game actions then stop functioning, like traveling to a new planet.  PP said he believed it was the goex or something like that which may be breaking the games.

[anzac]

Have you tried doing some diagnostics? Like memory test to start eliminating variables 

[Randy]

14 minutes ago, anzac said:

Have you tried doing some diagnostics? Like memory test to start eliminating variables 

I haven't but the memory test that runs on startup comes out fine, is that OK enough?  Also, now that I think about it, I have noted this issues on both of my TT machines, although there is one game that seems to work, Fire and Ice.

[anzac]

Try YART (I think it’s like this, it’s for something like YetAnotherRamTest or similar). The boot test is not a good measure of memory quality, basically it’s a memory size check.

 

I don’t want to affirm but back when I had the TT and MSTE on the table I used them both for games and yeah, some games don’t like the TT much but my recollection is that most that I wanted were ok, mostly thanks to ppera. Kudos to him always.

 

 

[Zogging Hell]

2 hours ago, anzac said:

Try YART (I think it’s like this, it’s for something like YetAnotherRamTest or similar). The boot test is not a good measure of memory quality, basically it’s a memory size check.

 

I don’t want to affirm but back when I had the TT and MSTE on the table I used them both for games and yeah, some games don’t like the TT much but my recollection is that most that I wanted were ok, mostly thanks to ppera. Kudos to him always.

 

 

Yes the memory test on the TT is completely unreliable, I installed TT ram with the wrong jumper settings (thanks to the backwards instructions) and the computer would crash after a few seconds use.. the TT inbuilt ram test gave the memory a clean bill of health though.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Things are way more complex than some RAM problems, or "it works on my TT from floppies", and some hard disk version works not .

First thing:  read what is written on DL site, pages, in README.TXT ...  There is talk about so called 'clean boot' and yet, people must have installed diverse ACCs and other things .  There are easy solutions to achieve clean boot. 

Gaming with Atari ST and followers, partially compatible TT and Falcon is much more complicated than with 8 bitters, and even than on Amiga. The reasons are used hierarchical filesystem, floppy controller and all possible copy protections related with it, then differences in TOS versions, CPUs, and even in PSG (by Falcon there are some differences, without real need).

Then, there is lot of not so well programmed games, SW overall, what needs corrections to be more compatible.

 

To make gaming more 'efficient' there are in most cases some extras:  cheats, trainers, even selectable start level and like. Then simple exit from game to Desktop, to same place where started it. So, no need for reset computer. And state saves - that is very helpful by complexer games, or even for some very hard stage, where even unlimited lives help not much.

To make game hard disk adapting more efficient there are diverse (shared) library, TOS in RAM files - HAGA, HAGE, D15R*.FIC ...

They hold code to perform common tasks - like hard disk file access, state save, restoring saved state, RAM config etc. 

Most of games does not use GEM (AES),  so no  need for complete TOS in RAM (1.04 is used, even for TT, Falcon) . HAGE is what is for game's using GEM, so complete TOS with GEM in RAM. With some smaller mods - so there is AUTO run of GEM SW (not possible with regular TOS versions, and it is not Desktop.inf auto start). HAGE works  with floppy image files, which can be of very large size, like 5 MB.  It is later development, and for now is only for ST, STE and their Mega versions. Falcon and TT support may happen, although, so far nobody asked specifically for it.

I wrote this because game Breach was mentioned - and it is one of rare GEM using games.  So, in case of TT (and Falcon) it could work by simple copy of all files to some DIR on hard disk - from not copy protected floppy (image) .  Such image is in BREACHHE - in DIR FILES.

Usual reasons why it might not work: there is A:\ before filenames, so it loads only from A:  - in such cases Virtual Floppy function may be useful.

Bothering, can it be done simpler ? No, not. And this is good chance to see how all it with game hard disk adaptations is hard, time consuming.

 

Randy: managed to make that 'clean boot' ?

 

[Randy]

H all, I think I have found the issue.  Peter, I have been able to run a clean boot and Breach, which is a hard drive installable and comes directly from the original disk, will run but the use of grenades can be an issue with regards to directionality, I think that is because of the speed the game is running.  None of the hage games will run, that special sauce breaks on the TT, all of those games will not run.  I also tried Walls of Illusion which was a MSA download and it ran fine, so I am left to think the hage thing is incompatible with the TT.  To further test this hypothesis I will need to find some other games without the hage system on them, unfortunately most games at the sites I have been on are in pasti or .st format so I can't uncompress them to install on the US.  If anyone knows of a site with MSA games, please let me know.  I am speaking of the good games, TB, DM, CSB, Sundog, etc.  Thanks!

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Thank you very much to not reading what I wrote.

[Randy]

6 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Thank you very much to not reading what I wrote.

Not sure what you mean, I read it several times carefully as I always do with your informative posts.  I think my reply indicates where I think the problem lies, and your response "It is later development, and for now is only for ST, STE and their Mega versions" would, to my mind, seem to suggest I am on the correct path, yes?

[Tillek]

Just to give you a heads up on Sundog, I don't think it runs well with newer TOS versions.  Can't speak for TT versions, but when I tried it on my MSTE it had issues (ran fine on my old 520) and even when I played it in Hatari, I had to use the older rom, the 2.06 rom did the same behavior as playing on the MSTE.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Quoting from PLM: "To make game hard disk adapting more efficient there are diverse (shared) library, TOS in RAM files - HAGA, HAGE, D15R*.FIC ..."

"(1.04 is used, even for TT, Falcon) " .

Why I even bother to explain, write this details, when 2 posts later it is completely ignored.

People asking for help, and then simply ignores what is written, continue with own seeing of how to do it. Sure, you are welcome to do it by own ideas, your knowledge. You have right to write that 'it is buggy' - just because it is allowed.  Well, I don't see that I will come here with more detailed explanations which nobody reads, understands.  Will add some pages on my WEBsite (which will be barely read), but that's all what can do.

Some spending plenty of time doing things what other people can use, enjoy. Some spending lot of time with useless, shallow talk of deaf.

 

[calimero]

Quote

explanations which nobody reads, understands

I believe that everybody reads, but few understands you. 
 

From your writings I conclude that games that use HAGA will not work on Falcon or TT. Did I understand corectly?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It is HAGE (E from AES).  And why you did not understand ? Because did not read carefully. So, I apologize. It is ... which nobody reads carefully .

Surely there is lot of technical terminology involved, TOS, mass storage related things, etc.

But when I write about using TOS 1.04 in RAM, and then 2 posts later someone talks that SUNDOG don't like TOS 2.06 that's pure case of not reading what is written in thread.   I spent really lot of time with making TOS 1.04 Gemdos part working with TT and Falcon. And what owners of those machines see from that ? Most of them nothing. Things are that I getting much better feedback and comments in e-mails than in forums. To spend again several days with fixing AES, GEM part of 1.04 for TT, Falcon I need some positive attitude feedback in first place. Not threads in style and with title like this.

From my adaptations at least some 40-50% works for sure on TT - that's what is tested by me, or some other people tested and wrote about it to me.

So, the question is not 'gaming on TT ot not' . It is how to make all those games working on TT. And that's longer story. For instance in lot of cases must add slowdown in code, otherwise will be unplayable fast.

[calimero]

29 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

It is HAGE (E from AES).  And why you did not understand ? Because did not read carefully. So, I apologize. It is ... which nobody reads carefully .

I did read your post #13 many times. You wrote:

 

"HAGE works  with floppy image files, which can be of very large size, like 5 MB.  It is later development, and for now is only for ST, STE and their Mega versions. Falcon and TT support may happen, although, so far nobody asked specifically for it."

 

This lead me to believe that HAGE do not work with Falcon and TT.

 

To check if this is true, I then went on your website on https://atari.8bitchip.info/fromhd2.php#DL and in list I found "Dungeon Master" where in description you wrote: "DL ADMA v.  With improved sample playback - via STE (compatible) DMA audio. Only STE, Mega STE, TT, Falcon. Min RAM 2MB. With HAGA, 2 cheat modes selectable." - so based on this, I conclude that HAGA works on Falcon and TT (but now I am not sure if HAGA and HAGE is the same!...).

 

29 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Surely there is lot of technical terminology involved, TOS, mass storage related things, etc.

Absolutely true. I do believe that most of user does not have clue what is e.g. AES. I vaguely can tell what it is, but until you do not use it in programing, you can not fully understand it's role in ST.

29 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

But when I write about using TOS 1.04 in RAM, and then 2 posts later someone talks that SUNDOG don't like TOS 2.06 that's pure case of not reading what is written in thread.  

On you page about Sundog you wrote: "Works from hard disk on any ST(E), Mega ST(E), Falcon , TT".

Tilek commented (give us his findings) in #17 that Sundog does not work well in TOS 2.06 (which is default, build in, TOS on Mega ST(E)).

Now I am confused. Should it work or not on Mega ST(E).

and I do not understand why you think that Tilek did not read what is writen in this thread?

29 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

I spent really lot of time with making TOS 1.04 Gemdos part working with TT and Falcon. And what owners of those machines see from that ? Most of them nothing.

I do not understand this your statement? 

- how do you mean nothing? I suppose that they are glad that some more game will work with Falcon and TT!

29 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Things are that I getting much better feedback and comments in e-mails than in forums. To spend again several days with fixing AES, GEM part of 1.04 for TT, Falcon I need some positive attitude feedback in first place. Not threads in style and with title like this.

From my adaptations at least some 40-50% works for sure on TT - that's what is tested by me, or some other people tested and wrote about it to me.

So, the question is not 'gaming on TT ot not' . It is how to make all those games working on TT. And that's longer story. For instance in lot of cases must add slowdown in code, otherwise will be unplayable fast.

You can not choose, or inflict, how people will title threads.

I do completely understand you frustration with "lesser" minds, I do have same problem... (just watch thread Why I Love The Atari ST or my rant in atari-forum.com how internet is made by fools for the fools - endless stream of "404", one way links... utter and uber useless piece of shit!)

but I do know that if you do not make this ST games work on Falcon and TT, nobody will (dbug and klaz stop their work).

And keep in mind that half of the "problems" is yours (and mine) knowledge of english. It is fucking no easy to express complex things in language that we "learn" much later in our life, by ourself.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

"but now I am not sure if HAGA and HAGE is the same!" - and why should be same ?  That's the first problem - assuming that it is similar, so must be mistype or whatever. No sir, there is some people who is aware how accuracy, details are important in computer things (and not only in it), so takes care to not make such mistakes, and usually checks what wrote before clicking that Submit Reply button.

This is not language problem, everyone active here is pretty good with English. Difference is in way of thinking, attitude, how much time  willing to give before getting in discussion in thread. I can only say - if want it quick, better skip whole thing. Shallow posts spiced with not reading (carefully) what was written surely are good only to make it more confusing, annoying others, instead clarify things.

 

Term (abbrev) AES is used a lot in Atari ST talk, and it is minimal respect toward Atari ST (who is beloved admittedly by many people active here) to know what is it.    http://toshyp.atari.org/en/008002.html

 

And how hard is to understand that TOS in RAM is special for cases when some SW does not work well under some specific TOS version(s) .

So, not relevant what TOS is in Mega STE or TT when hard disk adaptation will install TOS 1.04 in RAM and set it as active before starting game.

It can work even from floppy disk in many cases (problem can be with longer games, which fit not on 1 floppy) .

"and I do not understand why you think that Tilek did not read what is writen in this thread? "  Because what wrote was  very inappropriate. Actually disregarding of someone's hard work.  At least should say something like 'original Sundog ... ' . And that game is interesting because there is only 1, short regular file on floppy, other parts are loaded with XBIOS 8 call (use google if don't know what is it) . Interesting because it needs to be redirected to hard disk instead floppy disk when want to play from hard - and which TT is without hard disk or SD card adapter ?

 

"I suppose that they are glad that some more game will work with Falcon and TT! "  .  I suppose that they would be more happy if reading instructions, readme files and like ... Surely, there are many who do it, and then what ? - will not see their posts here, because people write in forums mostly when have some problems. Often almost impossible to solve based on very limited problem description.

 

It is not title self, words in title what is problem, but such attitude.  It is for instance too general. Like if some games work not, better to not play at all on TT ... No, Atari ST was not made like some very smart people joined forces, made HW and SW design, and voila ! - we have now Macintosh killer .

It was lot of experimenting, tries with different solutions, then correcting, testing again, and so on, over many months - and we got first ST, with unfinished TOS . Similar is with games - lot of games made in ST's golden years have flaws (partially caused by poor official DOCs) . And even with adaptations it was similar - it needed time to develop efficient solutions for all types of games. To make adapting easier. TOS in RAM is one of most useful solutions in all this - much easier to fix now well coded game for only 1 TOS version, that patching it for multiple TOS versions - just one of benefits.

 

That "endless stream of "404" is result of plenty earlier active Atari ST sites shut down, abandoned. Reminds me on my city and smaller shops - not many left of them.

 

End something so bad, that I'm glad that it was not me who experienced it: about some 10 years ago D-bug asked publicly that people post on their forum demands for what game to 'patch for hard disks' - and there was plenty of posts about. Only with 'small' error in many cases:  they asked something what was already done, by D-bug self, or Klaz, listed on their site, with DL, ?  That was really so counter productive, reckless ... 

 

I hope my English was good enough for most. Was my style good for all - I doubt. Sorry, not nice things happen, and they will not disappear by self, without pointing on them, and working on making it better - life is like computer SW - full with bugs, and not only in Summer ?

 

i

[Randy]

18 hours ago, Tillek said:

Just to give you a heads up on Sundog, I don't think it runs well with newer TOS versions.  Can't speak for TT versions, but when I tried it on my MSTE it had issues (ran fine on my old 520) and even when I played it in Hatari, I had to use the older rom, the 2.06 rom did the same behavior as playing on the MSTE.

 

Interestingly, that one does boot up from the files I got from PP, although I have not yet run the game to see if there is some in-game issues like I have with Frontier.

[+DarkLord]

Well, I appreciate everyone who takes the time to learn English and contibute

to these forums.

 

Where would the Atari scene be without the spirit of international co-operation!?

 

I submit that it would be in a much poorer state... 

 

[anzac]

8 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

Well, I appreciate everyone who takes the time to learn English and contibute

to these forums.

 

Where would the Atari scene be without the spirit of international co-operation!?

 

I submit that it would be in a much poorer state... 

 

I’ll drink to that ?