Neo Geo to Jaguar ports in 3,2,1 GO!

[youxia]

I don't think anybody here forgets about the importance of artwork or programming skills, this is kinda stating the obvious. But if you want to discuss something like ports from a very capable 2D console then talking about hardware capabilities is unavoidable. Games like Metal Slug are not just some pretty backgrounds, there is also a jaw-dropping truckload of things happening on the screen at times, and that is an important element of their success and lasting legacy.

 

Could Jaguar handle that? I don't know. f people who code for it say it could, then I suppose that's good enough. I haven't seen anything comparable though yet, IUbut admittedly I don't know much about the new releases.

[agradeneu]

56 minutes ago, youxia said:

I don't think anybody here forgets about the importance of artwork or programming skills, this is kinda stating the obvious. But if you want to discuss something like ports from a very capable 2D console then talking about hardware capabilities is unavoidable. Games like Metal Slug are not just some pretty backgrounds, there is also a jaw-dropping truckload of things happening on the screen at times, and that is an important element of their success and lasting legacy.

 

Could Jaguar handle that? I don't know. f people who code for it say it could, then I suppose that's good enough. I haven't seen anything comparable though yet, IUbut admittedly I don't know much about the new releases.

I explained that part of the awesomness of Metal Slug is that it creates a great illusion for the player.

 

If you have no idea what happens behind the curtain, speculations or vague assumptions about hardware capabilities make not much sense.

 

If homebrew programmers and artist could work 24/7 on new Jaguar games, with great talent, a similar game might be possible. But most ppl here have families.

 

For the Atari era, they clearly lacked the production values for such 2D monsters, and they focused on 3D while filling the gaps with cost effective ports from lesser systems.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by agradeneu

[Lostdragon]

9 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I explained that part of the awesomness of Metal Slug is that it creates a great illusion for the player.

 

If you have no idea what happens behind the curtain, speculations or vague assumptions about hardware capabilities make not much sense.

 

If homebrew programmers and artist could work 24/7 on new Jaguar games, with great talent, a similar game might be possible. But most ppl here have families.

 

For the Atari era, they clearly lacked the production values for such 2D monsters, and they focused on 3D while filling the gaps with cost effective ports form lesser systems.

 

 

You've also the Atari marketing factor to consider, which saw Atari asking developers to move away from 2D.. 

 

 

Deathwatch was a victim of such a decision.. 

 

"Although rumoured to have been completed, the game was actually cancelled at around a 50-60% complete stage, when DDI decided to drop the title when Atari kept stalling on feedback and payments for milestones. Atari even at one stage wanted DDI to turn the game into a fully 3D title, but DDI refused after the lack of engagement and confidence with Atari over the course of its development. Focus switched to projects that paid, and on time."

 

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/10/deathwatch/

 

 

 unfortunately Atari

stopped development before we were finished. They were wanting to

concentrate on 3D environments, 2D backdrops looked fantastic but they

didn't appeal to the marketing bods. Soon after Atari sold up and stopped

production. 

 

 

 

[youxia]

25 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I explained that part of the awesomness of Metal Slug is that it creates a great illusion for the player.

Every single videogame does that, it doesn't really need explaining. Again, it is stating the obvious, same as saying artwork is important or that homebrew devs don't have as much time/resources as full time programmers.

 

If such platitudes need to be used it's probably safe to say that this thread has ran its course. Minus the squabbling, the hardware specs info was at least interesting, and it's not like those who know what happens behind the curtains have reached some consensus.

[agradeneu]

32 minutes ago, youxia said:

Every single videogame does that, it doesn't really need explaining. Again, it is stating the obvious, same as saying artwork is important or that homebrew devs don't have as much time/resources as full time programmers.

 

If such platitudes need to be used it's probably safe to say that this thread has ran its course. Minus the squabbling, the hardware specs info was at least interesting, and it's not like those who know what happens behind the curtains have reached some consensus.

I was under the impression it was not very obvious. And you are missing the point of what was said because  what may sound like a platitude to you is the very thing that keeps programmers and artist occupied with hard work. Because it always easier said than done. However if you want to hear complicated numberwang, speculations and theories, look elsewhere.

Edited March 26, 2022 by agradeneu

[Gunther]

I'd like to see original 2D Jaguar games that use graphical effects and ideas from Neo-Geo games.

Screen-zooming, rotation, scaling, and other arcade-style eye candy.

The Jaguar port of Xevious is a great example of the kind of game I'd like to see on the Jaguar along with all the recent and upcoming releases.

I always wanted to see if the Jaguar could pull-off 1:1 arcade-conversions of Double Dragon 1, and 2; surely it could?

Edited March 26, 2022 by Gunther

[youxia]

15 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Because it always easier said than done.

That's yet another platitude. I know quite a lot of programmers and artists, and most of them get stuff done without the need for proclaiming such lofty utterances. But, if that's something that keeps you going, who am I to judge.

 

21 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

However if you want to hear complicated numberwang, speculations and theories, look elsewhere.

This sounds pretty much like your post #97 from previous page though. I quite enjoyed that, even if I'm not quite sure that using the apples vs oranges example actually does prove your conclusion

 

Anyway, I don't want to prolong the bickering, so I'll leave it at that. I'm just quite fascinated by these endless "could it be done" threads, and people who follow other platforms know they are present in every community, so I thought I'll chek the Jag one too.

[agradeneu]

5 minutes ago, youxia said:

That's yet another platitude. I know quite a lot of programmers and artists, and most of them get stuff done without the need for proclaiming such lofty utterances. But, if that's something that keeps you going, who am I to judge.

 

This sounds pretty much like your post #97 from previous page though. I quite enjoyed that, even if I'm not quite sure that using the apples vs oranges example actually does prove your conclusion

 

Anyway, I don't want to prolong the bickering, so I'll leave it at that. I'm just quite fascinated by these endless "could it be done" threads, and people who follow other platforms know they are present in every community, so I thought I'll chek the Jag one too.

Look, maybe you do 3 years of developing Jaguar games, then tell me some things I can judge as platitudes. Ok?

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by agradeneu

[Punisher5.0]

Alright lets not turn this into another flame war please or the thread will get locked. 

[phoboz]

On 3/26/2022 at 3:19 PM, Lostdragon said:

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/10/deathwatch/

There are some very nice visuals here, what is the copyright status?

Could these be used in a homebrew game without legal issues?

[alucardX]

On 3/26/2022 at 3:21 PM, Gunther said:

I'd like to see original 2D Jaguar games that use graphical effects and ideas from Neo-Geo games.

Screen-zooming, rotation, scaling, and other arcade-style eye candy.

The Jaguar port of Xevious is a great example of the kind of game I'd like to see on the Jaguar along with all the recent and upcoming releases.

I always wanted to see if the Jaguar could pull-off 1:1 arcade-conversions of Double Dragon 1, and 2; surely it could?

A Jag Battletoads Double Dragon would be great. Licensing wise it would probably never happen.

[Lostdragon]

19 minutes ago, phoboz said:

There are some very nice visuals here, what is the copyright status?

Could these be used in a homebrew game without legal issues?

I've honestly no idea, will raise it with Frank Gasking. 

[Lostdragon]

14 hours ago, phoboz said:

There are some very nice visuals here, what is the copyright status?

Could these be used in a homebrew game without legal issues?

Reply from Frank Gasking of GTW:

 

"Could possibly be owned by Atari, but then they never properly paid DDI, so it could have reverted back to them."

 

He's going to check with John Court and try and see what the state of play is. 

 

 

[Punisher5.0]

To give an example of what it takes to run Metal Slug on the PSX:

 

 

Im sure the Jaguar could handle the simpler games like Magician Lord but I think most games are too far of a reach.

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Punisher5.0 said:

To give an example of what it takes to run Metal Slug on the PSX:

 

Im sure the Jaguar could handle the simpler games like Magician Lord but I think most games are too far of a reach.

 

We will see....

[alucardX]

3 hours ago, Punisher5.0 said:

To give an example of what it takes to run Metal Slug on the PSX:

 

 

Im sure the Jaguar could handle the simpler games like Magician Lord but I think most games are too far of a reach.

Wow, by comparison the Playstation version kind of sucks. In all fairness to the PSX, it was not built for 2D and who's to say that more couldn't have been done to improve the visuals. I'm specifically looking at animation frames at first glance.

[Leonard Smith]

To be fair, even the NEO GEO CD version of Metal Slug was lacking a bit, due to limited RAM compared to the cartridge system.

These mega monster carts didn't translate well to the CD ROM-based systems of the era.

[alucardX]

1 hour ago, Leonard Smith said:

To be fair, even the NEO GEO CD version of Metal Slug was lacking a bit, due to limited RAM compared to the cartridge system.

These mega monster carts didn't translate well to the CD ROM-based systems of the era.

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=JYnzCJdtfOo

 

This video is Metal Slug 2 Neo Geo CD and Metal Slug X PSX and it looks like the Neo Geo CD is actually seeing some slowdown the PSX isn't. As far as animation frames this one looks comparable to the Neo Geo CD from what I can tell.

[Punisher5.0]

9 minutes ago, alucardX said:

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=JYnzCJdtfOo

 

This video is Metal Slug 2 Neo Geo CD and Metal Slug X PSX and it looks like the Neo Geo CD is actually seeing some slowdown the PSX isn't. As far as animation frames this one looks comparable to the Neo Geo CD from what I can tell.

Metal Slug X is considered an updated version of 2. Two had a lot of slowdown on all hardware.

[alucardX]

Just now, Punisher5.0 said:

Metal Slug X is considered an updated version of 2. Two had a lot of slowdown on all hatdware.

@Punisher5.0 Thank you for clarification on that.

[phoboz]

35 minutes ago, Punisher5.0 said:

Metal Slug X is considered an updated version of 2. Two had a lot of slowdown on all hardware.

Yes, it actually has severe slowdowns even on the NeoGeo MVS, the system it was designed for. Metal Slug X is a little bit better, but still some slowdowns (besides from that, I don't like the palette they switched to in the X version. The desert is some kind of blue/purple color)

 

Metal Slug 3 is way more playable.

 

Actually I think that the Metal Slug series is a little bit overrated, because the main character's sprite is quite small (neither do I like the proportions of it), and it's very easy to loose track of where you are on the screen, especially in 2 player mode (and then I also play on an arcade cabinet with 25 inch screen)

 

I am a bigger fan of Contra III/Super Probotector on the SNES. I have beaten that game once on HARD, with 3 LIVES. A game must have something very special for me to play it so much, because no one can doubt that this is one of the hardest games ever made. I even dreamt that there would be some kind of secret code on the end screen in that mode. Some code you could show to a retailer, and get another free game as a reward. Unfortunately, it turned out to be nothing, but the end BOSS started to chase you on your way out, which it doesn't in the easier modes.

Edited March 28, 2022 by phoboz

[sd32]

2 hours ago, alucardX said:

Wow, by comparison the Playstation version kind of sucks. In all fairness to the PSX, it was not built for 2D and who's to say that more couldn't have been done to improve the visuals. I'm specifically looking at animation frames at first glance.

From experiencing most of the PS1 library, I would say the only thing keeping it from matching or exceeding the Neo Geo 2d is lack of VRAM in comparison… I always wondered why Sony didn’t release a RAM expansion for the PS1 like Saturn and N64 had… maybe it wasn’t designed for such an upgrade?

 

With extra RAM, we would have seen almost perfect ports of all the great 2d arcade games from BITD on PS1, and maybe improve on them with lightning and transparency effects, and faster scaling and rotation. It had the sprite pushing power and superior color over Neo Geo and CPS2

 

And we could have also seen more high resolution 3D engines on it too from what I have read

[sd32]

30 minutes ago, phoboz said:

Yes, it actually has severe slowdowns even on the NeoGeo MVS, the system it was designed for. Metal Slug X is a little bit better, but still some slowdowns (besides from that, I don't like the palette they switched to in the X version. The desert is some kind of blue/purple color)

 

Metal Slug 3 is way more playable.

 

Actually I think that the Metal Slug series is a little bit overrated, because the main character's sprite is quite small (neither do I like the proportions of it), and it's very easy to loose track of where you are on the screen, especially in 2 player mode (and then I also play on an arcade cabinet with 25 inch screen)

 

I am a bigger fan of Contra III/Super Probotector on the SNES. I have beaten that game once on HARD, with 3 LIVES. A game must have something very special for me to play it so much, because no one can doubt that this is one of the hardest games ever made. I even dreamt that there would be some kind of secret code on the end screen in that mode. Some code you could show to a retailer, and get another free game as a reward. Unfortunately, it turned out to be nothing, but the end BOSS started to chase you on your way out, which it doesn't in the easier modes.

Due to its limited RAM, I think the Jag is better suited for a Contra type of game instead of the animation heavy Metal Slug series

 

Instead of massively animating everything, Contra is more about special effect and fast moving sprites, wouldn’t that be less VRAM hogging?

 

And I too prefer Contra over the also awesome Metal Slug… I love both series anyways

[agradeneu]

9 hours ago, alucardX said:

Wow, by comparison the Playstation version kind of sucks. In all fairness to the PSX, it was not built for 2D and who's to say that more couldn't have been done to improve the visuals. I'm specifically looking at animation frames at first glance.

This is kinda a stretch. The PS1 version is still a stellar game and it would be so on the Jaguar.

[agradeneu]

6 hours ago, sd32 said:

Due to its limited RAM, I think the Jag is better suited for a Contra type of game instead of the animation heavy Metal Slug series

 

Instead of massively animating everything, Contra is more about special effect and fast moving sprites, wouldn’t that be less VRAM hogging?

 

And I too prefer Contra over the also awesome Metal Slug… I love both series anyways

Contra is more sophisticated, I agree. 

The SNES Contra does some cool tricks to achieve impressive setpiece moments that the hardware, on paper, should not be capable of.  

Still, even the SNES is a far cry away from Jaguar in terms of RAM - it's 128+64KByte, Jaguar has 2000KB.