Do I need a UAV to fix this ?

[Ricky Spanish]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

A wire from those to pin 5 of the din. 

So looking at the back of the 1200XL, which is pin 5 ?

[Ricky Spanish]

13 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

So looking at the back of the 1200XL, which is pin 5 ?

K so I downloaded the 1200XL schematics, and looking from the back J2-5 is the second from the right. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Ricky Spanish

[ACML]

5 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

K so I downloaded the 1200XL schematics, and looking from the back J2-5 is the second from the right. 

See photo.  Best to solder to the backside of motherboard.  It's the empty one going nowhere.

Edited September 30, 2022 by ACML

[Ricky Spanish]

5 hours ago, ACML said:

See photo.  Best to solder to the backside of motherboard.  It's the empty one going nowhere.

Shockingly, I remembered how to solder. Didn't really fix the problem in post #1, but all the colours are much richer now. 

[Ricky Spanish]

2 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

but all the colours are much richer now. 

Placebo. Didn't do a thing. 

Edit : I used my old (composite) cable with a Y-connector (lum+chroma) it shows no difference  as compared to my Hercules composite cable which doesn't have the splice in chroma signal (confirmed with multimeter). 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Ricky Spanish
added info

[ACML]

If you want to see the difference, you need to be using the "separate Y/C" (Y= luma & C= chroma) output which is also the S-video standard.  Buy the S-video to HDMI converter and try it on a modern HDMI TV.  You will see the difference between Composite and S-video.  In the words of Andy Dufresne "And if you've come this far, maybe you're willing to come a little further".  If you like what you see, install the Clearpic2002 modification and you will see the true potential of S-video with clear, sharp pixels good enough to use 80 column text like The Last Word and Omniview 80.  Trust me it's worth it.  You can order the components from Digikey and it takes minor soldering skill.  You'll need a cheap solder sucker to clear the solder out of the through holes.

 

[Ricky Spanish]

14 hours ago, ACML said:

Buy the S-video to HDMI converter and try it on a modern HDMI TV.

Will do. Where do I but the S-video cable for the ATARI ?

[ACML]

3 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Will do. Where do I but the S-video cable for the ATARI ?

This one has separate shielding and should not contribute to jailbars. http://herculesworkshop.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product.cgi?d=hercules-workshop&item=80304

 

I've used this one as well.  https://www.8bitclassics.com/product/atari-xlxe-5-pin-din-to-s-video-composite-av-cable/

 

My machines have slight jailbars regardless of which cable used, so it does not matter to me.  Both are well made, but the 8-bit Classics one does not have separate shielding of Y/C. I current use the 8-bit Classics one because it also has composite and L&R audio RCA outputs.

  

 

[Beeblebrox]

@ACMLThe hercules one is double sheilded and the only one that is. We'll documented on AA.

With an S-video on LCD monitors you will get jailbar/zig zag interferance /crosstalk from composite on 800XL and 1200XL machines. I install the well known 800XL switch mod all the time with my stock 800XLs:https://forums.atariage.com/topic/332130-source-for-5-pin-din-to-svideo-cable-for-a800/?do=findComment&comment=5032598

 

... and you can do the same for the 1200XL. I'll dig out the link to it sometime which shows which resistor to lift and hook up a switch to. 

 

 

[Ricky Spanish]

54 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

With an S-video on LCD monitors you will get jailbar/zig zag interferance /crosstalk from composite on 800XL and 1200XL machines.

Well, well. Adding all those additional mods. That's a hard pass for me. I'll just stick with my CRT and try to figure out some other way of fixing the problem in post #1.

[Beeblebrox]

It's actually not adding any new tech. It's just lifting a componet (a resistor's leg), and installing a switch to turn off composite whilst using an s-video cable on LCD monitors. Crosstalk is caused by the Atari's own composite when you are using a modern LCD with an s-video cable. The switch is optional but is there if you want to use composite again. I do it all the time on 800XLs and the little micro switch sits descreatly in the casing vent. No drilling. All reversable. 

 

[Mclaneinc]

Not every one is gung ho with a soldering iron, if Ricky is happy as it is then that's best..

 

It is a simple mod but anything can happen in the next half hour...Sorry, went all Stingray then 

 

 

[Ricky Spanish]

5 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Not every one is gung ho with a soldering iron

True, but it doesn't bother me. I already added the chroma. That was a piece-o-cake. And as said earlier, my color is spot on (with the CRT), no jail bars, no zig zags, etc. Just the problem presented in post #1 with multi-colours showing when it should be white in certain graphics modes. GR.8 is the main culprit. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Ricky Spanish
correction

[ACML]

You might be misunderstanding, the Cleapic2002 is not the cause of jailbars, its an artifact of modern LED monitors using S-video.  Once you've switched to Clearpic2002, you will be amazed at the clarity and sharpness of the video.  You can still use the CRT and composite, it won't have jailbars even with Clearpic2002 installed.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by ACML

[Ricky Spanish]

1 hour ago, ACML said:

You can still use the CRT and composite, it won't have jailbars even with Clearpic2002 installed.

Like I said earlier, I don't have any of those problems. the only problem I have is white lines displaying multiple colors. Especially in GR.8.

 

[Eyvind Bernhardsen]

8 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Like I said earlier, I don't have any of those problems. the only problem I have is white lines displaying multiple colors. Especially in GR.8.

 

Isn’t that just perfectly ordinary composite video colour artifacting?

[Mclaneinc]

14 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

True, but it doesn't bother me. I already added the chroma. That was a piece-o-cake. And as said earlier, my color is spot on (with the CRT), no jail bars, no zig zags, etc. Just the problem presented in post #1 with multi-colours showing when it should be white in certain graphics modes. GR.8 is the main culprit. 

It wasn't meant to sound passive-aggressive toward anyone, I just think many of us are so handy about getting an iron out that we forget others may not be. I'm as guilty as any of encouraging people to do mods that may or may not be above their pay grade. It may be that some have not used an iron in many years so may be a bit worried.. Just me trying to make amends for past sins

 

Looking at Bebbles sig I get the idea he eats breakfast with his soldering iron, just in case a mod needs doing

 

Anyway, glad things are ok apart from what looks like classic Gr.8 artifacting...Blame the TV system  (or be happy about it for all those Gr.8 games that are in colour)

[Beeblebrox]

11 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

Looking at Bebbles sig I get the idea he eats breakfast with his soldering iron, just in case a mod needs doing

  not far off these days! 

[ACML]

4 hours ago, Eyvind Bernhardsen said:

Isn’t that just perfectly ordinary composite video colour artifacting?

BINGO!  Composite video will show artifacting on a CRT.  That's why we have S-video or in it's raw form "Separate Y/C" video.  You remove artifacting by keeping LUMA and CHROMA separated.  ClearPic2002 will fix your issue, but you have to use S-video.  

 

P.S.  Remember, once you complete the ClearPic2002 mod, you lose the RF channel 3-4 modulated output.  All video has be from the monitor jack.  UAV would also cure your problem.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by ACML

[Ricky Spanish]

6 hours ago, ACML said:

UAV would also cure your problem.

K, just ordered one. Let's see if it'll fix it. Hope you I hook composite to it. Haha.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ricky Spanish

[Ricky Spanish]

Just got my confirmation. 

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

K, just ordered one. Let's see if it'll fix it. Hope you I hook composite to it. Haha.

Even with the UAV, if you use composite and not s-video, you will get exactly the same results.  It's not a limitation or bug of the Atari.  it is how NTSC video works.

[Ricky Spanish]

30 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Even with the UAV, if you use composite and not s-video, you will get exactly the same results.  It's not a limitation or bug of the Atari.  it is how NTSC video works.

So you're saying @ACML is wrong & I just wasted 70 bucks CAD ?

[+Stephen]

Several people have posted here stating this. There is no video mod that can be done to any NTSC Atari, that will not have this issue show when using composite.  It is just how the NTSC video standard works.  Because of the way NTSC video is generated, and the fact that Atari's 1.79MHz CPU is exactly 50% of the 3.58MHz NTSC colour clock, this happens.  I will demonstrate this with a BASIC program.  What it does, is plots every other pixel.  When starting on an even pixel, you get one "colour".  When starting on an odd pixel, you get another "colour".  This is absolutely unavoidable - without using separate luma/chroma.  This is also why, if you look at the font, you will never see a single pixel vertical width line in any character.  EVERY vertical line in the text font, is 2 pixels, to guarantee it shows as white, and not one of the artifact colours.

 

I will go write this little demo program now, and edit the post with it.

[code]

10 GRAPHICS 8
20 POKE 710,0
30 COLOR 1
40 PLOT 0,0
50 FOR X=0 TO 319 STEP 2
60   FOR Y=0 TO 10
70     PLOT X,Y
80   NEXT Y
90 NEXT X
100 FOR X=1 TO 319 STEP 2
110   FOR Y=11 TO 21
120     PLOT X,Y
130   NEXT Y
140 NEXT X
150 FOR X=0 TO 319
160   FOR Y=22 TO 32
170     PLOT X,Y
180   NEXT Y
190 NEXT X

[/code]

 

This is what you will see when using Composite

 

This is what you will see when using separate luma/chroma

 

[ACML]

4 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

So you're saying @ACML is wrong & I just wasted 70 bucks CAD ?

I thought we all were very clear that composite by its' nature is the reason for what you are seeing.  Everyone has this issue if using composite on a CRT, your situation is normal.  My posts, along with many others, repeatedly stated that S-video or synonymously Y/C separate video is "required" to eliminate the issue.  Both the ClearPic2002 and UAV will produce great clear and sharp pixels without artifacting, but "you must use Y/C S-video" to achieve it.  The money is not wasted.  If you bought a UAV, just buy the S-video to HDMI converter and you are good to go.  As Mclaneinc stated above, we sometimes forget that others may not be as knowledgeable with electronics and may not always get what we're putting down.  Sorry for the confusion.