Why I'm temporarily leaving the Retro programming community

[Ecernosoft]

Before you tell me, NO, I'm not leaving Atariage. I've just decided to pause my retro- programming "experiments".

I've only done ASM for the 6502 systems (NES, 2600, 5200, 7800, and some AII and C64 stuff) and some Z80 stuff (SMS, ZX spectrum). I've always wanted to make a game but doing Assembly is just too much work. It takes way too long to make something good in Assembly language and I, still being in school, don't really have time to put as much effort into it as I'd like.

 

However, all is not lost! I will still be here on Atariage to see what you have done. Specifically what you guys can accomplish on the Atari 7800- as that's always nice to see. As someone who chose team Atari instead of team Nintendo, I always was upset at people comparing the NES to the 7800 like the 7800 was weaker. Sure, the sound isn't the best on the 7800, but compared to many platforms it's nice to have sound not directly driven by the CPU. That's what most IBM platforms dealt with in the 7800's time! Not to mention the 7800 had the highest resolution.

 

I'm also not going to be done period- I'd like to come back when I know more as a programmer. Remember, I'm only 14 as of posting this post. It's already insane that someone that young even attempted assembly language- most of my friends have no idea what such even is, much less the Atari. (They are probably still under the 1 vs 2 vs 4 vs 8 vs 16 vs 32 vs etc bits impression)

 

I'd like to get back into other languages (C, C++, javascript (maybe), python) where I can actually get something of use done in a day. It's Conner time (Where it is now) took me 3.5 months to do, whereas It's Conner time on Scratch took me just a weekgend. Actually, it took me 4 days. 4 days, versus 100 days.

 

Thanks for understanding. 😃

[Mr SQL]

1 hour ago, Ecernosoft said:

I'd like to get back into other languages (C, C++, javascript (maybe), python) where I can actually get something of use done in a day. It's Conner time (Where it is now) took me 3.5 months to do, whereas It's Conner time on Scratch took me just a weekgend. Actually, it took me 4 days. 4 days, versus 100 days.

 

You might find BASIC more inspiring for retro coding.

 

Many retro machines have a BASIC interpreter built in that is great for learning functional programming and BASIC Compilers like the one in my signature can turn BASIC programs into fast Assembly. 

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, Mr SQL said:

 

You might find BASIC more inspiring for retro coding.

 

Many retro machines have a BASIC interpreter built in that is great for learning functional programming and BASIC Compilers like the one in my signature can turn BASIC programs into fast Assembly. 

Thanks, but also no thanks.

 

I've had a better experience ASMing than using Basic quite often on the 2600 and 7800. I tried that first. I appreciate the offer, though. 😃 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

Thanks, but also no thanks.

 

I've had a better experience ASMing than using Basic quite often on the 2600 and 7800. I tried that first. I appreciate the offer, though. 😃 

Those aren't exactly BASIC as it's usually understood to be.  The best way to describe them is that while they have a lot of common structure, syntax, etc. with most dialects of BASIC, they're a little more specialised in terms of the types of programs they're expected to create.

 

However, I will say that in a modern context python now occupies a similar position to the one that BASIC did on home computers.  Frankly, I wouldn't recommend BASIC to someone these days as a starter language simply because it's just not in wide enough use anymore to be relevant.

 

WRT assembly: I don't understand why you feel that learning assembly somehow relates to your current age.  FWIW, I started in on 6502 in earnest at around 12, and was getting my feet wet in 68000 by about 15 or so - and this wasn't terribly unusual for someone my age at the time.  If anything, you're right at the age where lots of folks were getting into machine language.

 

Having said that, I certainly understand having the available time to dedicate to it.  If it's not there, it's just not there.

[Ecernosoft]

5 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Those aren't exactly BASIC as it's usually understood to be.  The best way to describe them is that while they have a lot of common structure, syntax, etc. with most dialects of BASIC, they're a little more specialised in terms of the types of programs they're expected to create.

 

However, I will say that in a modern context python now occupies a similar position to the one that BASIC did on home computers.  Frankly, I wouldn't recommend BASIC to someone these days as a starter language simply because it's just not in wide enough use anymore to be relevant.

 

WRT assembly: I don't understand why you feel that learning assembly somehow relates to your current age.  FWIW, I started in on 6502 in earnest at around 12, and was getting my feet wet in 68000 by about 15 or so - and this wasn't terribly unusual for someone my age at the time.  If anything, you're right at the age where lots of folks were getting into machine language.

 

Having said that, I certainly understand having the available time to dedicate to it.  If it's not there, it's just not there.

I get it, I get it.

 

I've coded python as well, and HTML, and as much as I like Python it can be a little limited.

I really enjoy coding, but I think it's time for me to move back to modern languages. I might try C out on the 7800 though!

[+Gemintronic]

Sounds like you're not asking the right questions.  Even if assembly is too hard and BASIC is not preferred there are still other options.  You just have to ask for help.

 

It's OK to just not want to program.  But, if you have an urge there's always a way forward.

[+x=usr(1536)]

53 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

I get it, I get it.

Do you, or are you simply being dismissive of advice?  It's hard to tell from a response like that.

53 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

I've coded python as well, and HTML, and as much as I like Python it can be a little limited.

Before writing python off completely, do a bit more research on it.  It's likely not as limited as you may believe it to be.

53 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

I really enjoy coding, but I think it's time for me to move back to modern languages. I might try C out on the 7800 though!

C on the 7800.  Interesting choice.  Is there even a native compiler for that?

 

Out of curiosity, why are the 2600 and 7800 systems that you're targetting for learning to program?  Given the prevalence of x86/x64/ARM platforms these days - and the wide range of freely-available development tools each one has available for it - they're an unusual choice.  I can understand wanting to get to know and understand the nuances of each machine, but that's going to be best accomplished on either one through use of assembly, not a higher-level language.

[Mr SQL]

11 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

Thanks, but also no thanks.

 

I've had a better experience ASMing than using Basic quite often on the 2600 and 7800. I tried that first. I appreciate the offer, though. 😃 

 

Like @x=usr(1536) pointed out the BASIC you tried is more complex than BASIC from the 80's.

 

Atari Flashback BASIC and SuperCharger BASIC are like classic BASIC from the 80's that let you code an entire game in as little as 10 lines of code. That can make learning programming a lot of fun.

 

Here's a download link with 10 line BASIC game programming examples and larger programs.

 

They are also compatible with the Commodore 64:

 

 

 

[miker]

But if you really stick with assembler, here you are: https://github.com/milkeybabes

 

(some game source codes from C64)

 

In case you will want to return.  

 

[miker]

Some more?

 

https://mrcook.uk/arcade-game-source-code

[+splendidnut]

On 9/26/2022 at 2:32 PM, Ecernosoft said:

It's already insane that someone that young even attempted assembly language- most of my friends have no idea what such even is, much less the Atari.

It's probably not as unusual (or insane) as you think for this crowd.  I was fiddling around with assembly language (x86) at around that age.  I wrote a tile-based scrolling engine in assembly (Intel 386) for a game programmed in Turbo Pascal 7.   Ah, the good ole DOS days...

[MrTrust]

The average age of a US soldier in Vietnam was 22.  In the Iraq war, it was 33.   An 18 year-old kid signing up and fighting in a war would not be a remarkable thing a few generations ago, but today it would be.  Just in value-neutral terms, there is a qualitative difference between being a 14 year-old now, and being a 14 year-old when you guys were learning.

 

Hope you stick with it, @Ecernosoft.  Truth be told, many of olds are going to start dying relatively soon, and if not for kids like you, this whole thing will just evaporate.  Be a shame if that happened.

[Ecernosoft]

11 hours ago, Gemintronic said:

Sounds like you're not asking the right questions.  Even if assembly is too hard and BASIC is not preferred there are still other options.  You just have to ask for help.

 

It's OK to just not want to program.  But, if you have an urge there's always a way forward.

Ok, I apologize if I come across with negativity. I will NEVER. NEVER EVER. Leave the homebrew scene. Honestly, I might find myself coding in Basic! But my plan is to learn C.

2 hours ago, MrTrust said:

The average age of a US soldier in Vietnam was 22.  In the Iraq war, it was 33.   An 18 year-old kid signing up and fighting in a war would not be a remarkable thing a few generations ago, but today it would be.  Just in value-neutral terms, there is a qualitative difference between being a 14 year-old now, and being a 14 year-old when you guys were learning.

 

Hope you stick with it, @Ecernosoft.  Truth be told, many of olds are going to start dying relatively soon, and if not for kids like you, this whole thing will just evaporate.  Be a shame if that happened.

Of course. @MrTrust, I'm not going to leave this, I had too much fun with it to do that!

 

3 hours ago, splendidnut said:

It's probably not as unusual (or insane) as you think for this crowd.  I was fiddling around with assembly language (x86) at around that age.  I wrote a tile-based scrolling engine in assembly (Intel 386) for a game programmed in Turbo Pascal 7.   Ah, the good ole DOS days...

Ok, you are right. But then again, name another person <15 years old here at Atariage, besides me.

 

8 hours ago, miker said:

But if you really stick with assembler, here you are: https://github.com/milkeybabes

 

(some game source codes from C64)

 

In case you will want to return.  

 

Return? pff! I'm not actually leaving!

I was honestly thinking of writing my own basic for use in games like ICT, a basic for platformers. I see so many people try to make platformers on the 7800 but little things like jump physics or Enemy AI or bugged or missing or implemented poorly.

 

And by the way, by "Leaving" I meant mainsteam coding in ASM. I'll still do ASM but you probably won't see a game from me soon.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Just in value-neutral terms, there is a qualitative difference between being a 14 year-old now, and being a 14 year-old when you guys were learning.

Which is true, but in quantitative terms not much has changed.  We all had to start learning somewhere, and we all had to do it from a position of having never touched an assembler before.  That's not much different today.

 

The one qualitative advantage I would be willing to assign to someone in their early teens today, however, is simply that of communication (and communications) making the learning process easier to research.  Effort is still ultimately down to the individual, but between just social media and YouTube there are a huge number of outlets for help that we didn't have access to.

 

This forum is a great example - every subforum for a particular system has subforums of its own dedicated to programming.  Compared to waiting for replies on a BBS or to a letter, a magazine to hit the newsstands, or the next user group meeting to roll around, it's nearly real-time and with a huge brain trust behind it.

[Ecernosoft]

1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Which is true, but in quantitative terms not much has changed.  We all had to start learning somewhere, and we all had to do it from a position of having never touched an assembler before.  That's not much different today.

 

The one qualitative advantage I would be willing to assign to someone in their early teens today, however, is simply that of communication (and communications) making the learning process easier to research.  Effort is still ultimately down to the individual, but between just social media and YouTube there are a huge number of outlets for help that we didn't have access to.

 

This forum is a great example - every subforum for a particular system has subforums of its own dedicated to programming.  Compared to waiting for replies on a BBS or to a letter, a magazine to hit the newsstands, or the next user group meeting to roll around, it's nearly real-time and with a huge brain trust behind it.

I didn't start at 14, I started christmas of 2 years ago. with the 2600 of course. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

Ok, you are right. But then again, name another person <15 years old here at Atariage, besides me.

There are a few known to be around, and probably a few more that are unknown simply because they haven't stated their age(s).

 

As for naming the ones that I know...  No.  That's just not appropriate.  Frankly, I'd find it creepy if some middle-aged rando on a forum started making a list of minors known to frequent the forums.

[Ecernosoft]

5 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

There are a few known to be around, and probably a few more that are unknown simply because they haven't stated their age(s).

 

As for naming the ones that I know...  No.  That's just not appropriate.  Frankly, I'd find it creepy if some middle-aged rando on a forum started making a list of minors known to frequent the forums.

That's sort of my point.

 

Most people don't state their age on a forum, especially youngsters like me. It's because some are more scared than others, I was pretty nervous. The first time I stated my age was "Bad news for It's Conner time!" (I think) where I mentioned my busy life and the fact ICT was just taking way too long.

 

Also, Hackers. I'll tell you, young people can be very scared of hackers. Either because of their parrents telling them the dangers of the internet, or the "Stranger danger" stuff.

As a result, most people will be anonymous as possible online as to not reveal their identity. Now, I know Atariage is much safer than most online forums but still.

 

Actually, I think the first time I mentioned it was in a reply to one of Muddyfunster's games.

[+save2600]

Talk less, read more.

[Ecernosoft]

1 minute ago, save2600 said:

Talk less, read more.

You are right.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, Ecernosoft said:

The first time I stated my age was "Bad news for It's Conner time!" (I think) where I mentioned my busy life and the fact ICT was just taking way too long.

Pro-tip: the way in which you communicate belies your age.  Might not have been able to put an exact number on it, but 'less than 18 or so' was very evident.

1 hour ago, Ecernosoft said:

Actually, I think the first time I mentioned it was in a reply to one of Muddyfunster's games.

Out of genuine curiosity: why would your age matter?

[Ecernosoft]

1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Pro-tip: the way in which you communicate belies your age.  Might not have been able to put an exact number on it, but 'less than 18 or so' was very evident.

Out of genuine curiosity: why would your age matter?

(I honestly don't know)

[Ecernosoft]

Probably because the "freaks" target the younger ones due to their naivety?

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 minute ago, Ecernosoft said:

Probably because the "freaks" target the younger ones due to their naivety?

Fair enough.  FWIW, I'm not arguing against being cautious.  Being cautious is a survival skill, and a good one to have.

 

As a part of survival skills, observing your environment before wading into it is one of the more valuable ones.  This saves on friction and embarrassment later, and makes it generally easier to get along with people.  It also doesn't reveal anything about you personally, and gives you a chance to get a feel for the community from a slight distance.  This, in turn, should help you progress with the projects that you're working on once you do begin interacting with people.

 

The trick is to remain aware of your surroundings without assuming that every interaction is - actually or potentially - a threat.  This isn't to say that your concerns are unfounded, but rather that established communities all have their own way of doing things and responding to people.  You'll find that this is a remarkably supportive (and helpful) one when given a chance.  It's also one that doesn't typically care about factors such as age, placing more value on things like the willingness to learn and ability to accept criticism in the vein in which it was intended.

 

All of this is a roundabout way of saying the following: talk less, read more   Keep doing what you're doing.  Ask questions, take advice, show what you're capable of, and help others.  And have fun doing it.  That's the most important part.

[Ecernosoft]

53 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Fair enough.  FWIW, I'm not arguing against being cautious.  Being cautious is a survival skill, and a good one to have.

 

As a part of survival skills, observing your environment before wading into it is one of the more valuable ones.  This saves on friction and embarrassment later, and makes it generally easier to get along with people.  It also doesn't reveal anything about you personally, and gives you a chance to get a feel for the community from a slight distance.  This, in turn, should help you progress with the projects that you're working on once you do begin interacting with people.

 

The trick is to remain aware of your surroundings without assuming that every interaction is - actually or potentially - a threat.  This isn't to say that your concerns are unfounded, but rather that established communities all have their own way of doing things and responding to people.  You'll find that this is a remarkably supportive (and helpful) one when given a chance.  It's also one that doesn't typically care about factors such as age, placing more value on things like the willingness to learn and ability to accept criticism in the vein in which it was intended.

 

All of this is a roundabout way of saying the following: talk less, read more   Keep doing what you're doing.  Ask questions, take advice, show what you're capable of, and help others.  And have fun doing it.  That's the most important part.

I'm not arguing against you, quite the opposite is actually happening. Thanks for the advice.

[MrTrust]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The one qualitative advantage I would be willing to assign to someone in their early teens today, however, is simply that of communication (and communications) making the learning process easier to research.

 

That's true, although I suspect starting with an 8-bit micro, a line-item basic interpreter, and a programming book (that probably came with it) was probably a more efficient way of getting the fundamentals down than trying to drink out of the fire hose that's available on the internet.

 

I'm not much of a programmer, but I can use high-level languages to get things done that I need/want done mostly by groping around with a reference to look at.  If I hadn't come across an old TRS-80 at a yard sale when I was a kid, I don't know that I would have been able to find a toehold to actually start doing things that were useful.

 

Also, just being on the internet is an issue.  Many distractions and rabbit holes.  I'm 40 and I can feel the number it's done on my ability to focus.  I can only imagine what it would be like to have your brain completely bombarded like that while it's still developing.

 

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Effort is still ultimately down to the individual, but between just social media and YouTube there are a huge number of outlets for help that we didn't have access to.

 

This feels intuitively correct, but I notice I tend to internalize the information less the easier it is to access it, and I tend to overlook what is probably valuable information the easier it is to just search quickly for what I need.

 

Okay, maybe that's me, but I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an adolescent today, I feel like it's probably a lot easier to hit a certain plateau of competence than it once was, but I imagine it being more difficult to rise beyond that.