ColecoVision adapter for the Master System - available now!

[RockLobster]

11 hours ago, Apocalypse said:

On my other TV with the default settings it's even brighter than in your video.

I did a bad job of explaining my demo videos more.

 

I actually reduced the exposure setting when capturing that video to reduce bloom from the brightness.   My point at doing that was to show how clearly even the SG-1000 dark red shows up even when the overall image isn't at its brightest.  

 

I'm also looking forward to @rednakes1 and @DNA128k 's test at cranking up the appropriate adjustments on their displays to show those dark reds.  Because if we see colors being washed out and/or black become gray and we still don't see the dark red in games like Cosmic Avenger's bombs or the cheese, power pellets and more from Mouse Trap, then maybe they're onto something.

 

For example, the brightness, contrast and color settings shouldn't be cranked up so much that the blacks become gray in order to see those dark red elements.

 

Instead, the dark reds should be visible even when the blacks are as black as a CRT can make.

 

Edited Monday at 04:41 PM by RockLobster
Added photo

[+-^CrossBow^-]

36 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

I did a bad job of explaining my demo videos more.

 

I actually reduced the exposure setting when capturing that video to reduce bloom from the brightness.   My point at doing that was to show how clearly even the SG-1000 dark red shows up even when the overall image isn't at its brightest.  

 

I'm also looking forward to @rednakes1 and @DNA128k 's test at cranking up the appropriate adjustments on their displays to show those dark reds.  Because if we see colors being washed out and/or black become gray and we still don't see the dark red in games like Cosmic Avenger's bombs or the cheese, power pellets and more from Mouse Trap, then maybe they're onto something.

 

For example, the brightness, contrast and color settings shouldn't be cranked up so much that the blacks become gray in order to see those dark red elements.

 

Instead, the dark reds should be visible even when the blacks are as black as a CRT can make.

 

Mousetrap isn't something I tested but I could load it up and see how it looks on my AV setup? I will state that I'm using a modern OLED and newer FW on my OSSC now implements a form of HDR into the HDMI output so many of the colors are more vivid than they might be for others.

 

Also my SMS is an early one with just the snail game and uses leaf switches for the pause and reset. So it has the earlier VDP in it I'm pretty sure along with the older sony video encoder chip and not the more common 1145P that was used in the later models.

 

[+Apocalypse]

3 hours ago, RockLobster said:

For example, the brightness, contrast and color settings shouldn't be cranked up so much that the blacks become gray in order to see those dark red elements.

That is absolutely correct. That TV was damaged during my last move and the tube was swapped for a more or less compatible model, hence the picture quality not being great. Pretty sure the cutoffs are set too high for this tube.

[RockLobster]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I will state that I'm using a modern OLED and newer FW on my OSSC now implements a form of HDR into the HDMI output so many of the colors are more vivid than they might be for others.

Hmm...  is there a way you can have samples of both your Mouse Trap "dark red test" done with and w/o going through the OSSC?    even if it's going to a flat panel of any sort?

 

Mouse Trap is a great test game because not only does it have plenty of dark red color mapped but there are multiple size/shapes of it, other colors and all against a black background so we can see if brightness is too high or not in the picture adjustment (even if the camera is compensating via exposure)

[+-^CrossBow^-]

39 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

Hmm...  is there a way you can have samples of both your Mouse Trap "dark red test" done with and w/o going through the OSSC?    even if it's going to a flat panel of any sort?

 

Mouse Trap is a great test game because not only does it have plenty of dark red color mapped but there are multiple size/shapes of it, other colors and all against a black background so we can see if brightness is too high or not in the picture adjustment (even if the camera is compensating via exposure)

No. the current TV in my gameroom is HDMI and COAX input only now. So everything has to go through the OSSC. I can turn off the HDR but it just generally makes everything look a little darker. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Here are direct captures from the Colecoco and my actual CV. My CV has the TMS-RGB upgrade installed but both my SMS and the CV are using the same Genesis to component cable in these setups. Also while I am viewing these from my OLED and it does show an HDR signal and I can tell the different with it on or off, it turns out that my video capture device does NOT support HDR so it is ignored and the actual captures look the same regardless of that option being on or not.

 

Here is Mouse Trap on my actual Colecovision:

Here is Mouse Trap from the Colecoco:

 

Here is Cosmic Avenger from my actual Colecovision:

And here it the game from the Colecoco:

 

Here is Donkey Kong from my actual Colecovision:

 

And finally, here is Donkey Kong from the Colecoco:

 

So it is obvious that some of the colors are more vibrant and pronounced while others like the light red that appears much darker through the Colecoco suffers. There are other changes in the hues as well. The girders are very much a hot pink through the Colecoco vs the more usual purple we are used to on the the actual CV. And of course DK himself is much darker on the Colecoco than on an actual CV.

 

Also, if you click on those screenshots, you will see that I captured the shot while dropping a bomb on Cosmic Avenger. On the Colecoco it is much darker and harder to see but I can see it on my TV all the same. It is brighter on the the actual CV. But here is an odd thing. When you get the cave levels, the enemy ships are harder to see on the actual CV as they are more dark grey vs the Colecoco where they are lighter and easier to see?

 

Here is the section in question on my actual CV:

 

Here is how it looks on the Colecoco:

 

In this cases I think that due to the blue background also being much darker than the blue n the actual CV, the enemies just stand our more on the Colecoco vs the CV. It is possible they are actually close to the same brightness but again stand out due to the darker background blue being shown.

 

 

 

[RockLobster]

19 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Here are direct captures from the Colecoco and my actual CV

I should have asked if you had a capture device.   That certainly eliminates any sort of display setting as @Apocalypse had suggested for people who aren't able to see the dark reds at all to try.

 

It'll be a challenge for he and @mitsurugi-w to decide on if someone simply has a incorrectly configured display or one that's not bright enough even with adjustments to see some of the darker colors.

 

 

21 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

both my SMS and the CV are using the same Genesis to component cable in these setups.

OIC, you're using one of those HD Retrovision "cables" with the inline / embedded RGB to Component transcoders?  

 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

6 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

I should have asked if you had a capture device.   That certainly eliminates any sort of display setting as @Apocalypse had suggested for people who aren't able to see the dark reds at all to try.

 

It'll be a challenge for he and @mitsurugi-w to decide on if someone simply has a incorrectly configured display or one that's not bright enough even with adjustments to see some of the darker colors.

 

 

OIC, you're using one of those HD Retrovision "cables" with the inline / embedded RGB to Component transcoders?  

 

 

 

Correct the video I released yesterday was also all direct capture from the console. I do that for the reason you stated. To capture the actual output as it is and not really as I might see it.

 

Yes the cable is similar but it is the version that is made by Retro Gaming Cables in the UK. They basically make their own version of that cable that uses a Retrotink2x core in the heart of it for the conversion process from RGB to YPbPr. Very handy cable to have and I have it connected to my Extron AV selector loose so I can plug in any console that uses Sega Genesis model 2 RGB wiring.

 

[mitsurugi-w]

We are pretty much certain it is not possible to be missing a color because of the adapter.  It is almost certainly a display issue. If the adapter was bad you'd have glitchy gfx or no picture at all.

[9phoneman]

Add me to the list

[phoenixdownita]

13 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Here are direct captures from the Colecoco and my actual CV. My CV has he TMS-RGB upgrade installed but both my SMS and the CV are using the same Genesis to component cable in these setups. Also while I am viewing these from my OLED and it does show an HDR signal and I can tell the different with it on or off, it turns out that my video capture device does NOT support HDR so it is begin ignored anyway and the actual captures look the same regardless of that option being on or not.

 

Here is Mouse Trap on my actual Colecovision:

Here is Mouse Trap from the Colecoco:

 

Here is Cosmic Avenger from my actual Colecovision:

And here it the game from the Colecoco:

 

Here is Donkey Kong from my actual Colecovision:

 

And finally, here is Donkey Kong from the Colecoco:

 

So it is obvious that some of the colors are more vibrant and pronounced while others like the light red that appears much darker through the Colecoco suffers. There are other changes in the hues as well. The girders are very much a hot pink through the Colecoco vs the more usual purple we are used to on the the actual CV. And of course DK himself is much darker on the Colecoco than on an actual CV.

 

Also, if you click on those screenshots, you will see that I captured the shot while dropping a bomb on Cosmic Avenger. On the Colecoco it is much darker and harder to see but I can see it on my TV all the same. It is brighter on the the actual CV. But here is an odd thing. When you get the cave levels, the enemy ships are harder to see on the actual CV as they are more dark grey vs the Colecoco where they are lighter and easier to see?

 

Here is the section in question on my actual CV:

 

Here is how it looks on the Colecoco:

 

In this cases I think that due to the blue background also being much darker than the blue n the actual CV, the enemies just stand our more on the Colecoco vs the CV. It is possible they are actually close to the same brightness but again stand out due to the darker background blue being shown.

 

 

 

I don’t see anything that cannot be explained by the palette the sms vdp uses for legacy modes (9918)

https://www.smspower.org/Development/Palette

 

 

Even just playing segagalaga on sms (the game from the sg1000) is very hard due to the dark blue enemy bullets that are neigh invisible. Wonder boy sg1000 is also … challenging to watch.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

6 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I don’t see anything that cannot be explained by the palette the sms vdp uses for legacy modes (9918)

https://www.smspower.org/Development/Palette

 

 

Even just playing segagalaga on sms (the game from the sg1000) is very hard due to the dark blue enemy bullets that are neigh invisible. Wonder boy sg1000 is also … challenging to watch.

Oh I know the differences are due to the VDP changes. I only took the captures I did as a point of comparison. Many games are fine to play in this setup even with the changes in the color palette present and I noticed something else as well. When playing Cosmic Avenger for instance, it scrolls smoother on the SMS vs on my actual CV. I think the main issue for me with this is how some games graphics appear to be corrupted such as the text in some homebrew games that is shown not being visible or in the game graphic elements in something like L'Abbye des Morts for instance? If you didn't know about the pits in the beginning screens of play on that game, you will simply fall and wonder why you died as an example. I figured games like it and others that show these artifacts are due to some programming tricks that perhaps the sg1000 mode isn't able to replicate.

 

[RockLobster]

12 hours ago, mitsurugi-w said:

We are pretty much certain it is not possible to be missing a color because of the adapter.  It is almost certainly a display issue.

I agree with you regarding how it's more likely people with problems seeing the dark red or other colors is due to display rather than the colecoco adapter issue.

 

I've been taking photos of my ColecoVision and Master System from my CRTs while reading this thread and looking photos from a generic 4K flat panel I have on my desktop computer.   This is how I've been remarking on this color palette thing...

 

However, I pulled up this thread and looked at @Apocalypse's direct captures from my iPhone 13 and it was clear to me how even with the phone's brightness cranked up, the dark reds were very difficult to see.   So I took my spouse's iPhone 13 and took a photo of the screen while adjusting for exposure to ensure things don't get blown out.  The difference between a real CV vs the SG-1000 palette of the SMS becomes much more pronounced.  

 

I can totally appreciate that even if the adapter is performing as designed that someone on a good flat panel with properly adjusted colors would still have issues seeing some of the darker SG-1000 palette colors.

 

For those users...  Is there a way to swap or not use that dark red?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, RockLobster said:

I agree with you regarding how it's more likely people with problems seeing the dark red or other colors is due to display rather than the colecoco adapter issue.

 

I've been taking photos of my ColecoVision and Master System from my CRTs while reading this thread and looking photos from a generic 4K flat panel I have on my desktop computer.   This is how I've been remarking on this color palette thing...

 

However, I pulled up this thread and looked at @Apocalypse's direct captures from my iPhone 13 and it was clear to me how even with the phone's brightness cranked up, the dark reds were very difficult to see.   So I took my spouse's iPhone 13 and took a photo of the screen while adjusting for exposure to ensure things don't get blown out.  The difference between a real CV vs the SG-1000 palette of the SMS becomes much more pronounced.  

 

I can totally appreciate that even if the adapter is performing as designed that someone on a good flat panel with properly adjusted colors would still have issues seeing some of the darker SG-1000 palette colors.

 

For those users...  Is there a way to swap or not use that dark red?

Yeah it seems to me that based on the palette that the SMS VDP is using, that the medium red on the SMS would be pretty close to the dark red on the CV's actual VDP? But I'm not really sure how any of that would be changed here? Unless the games themselves were changed do use different colors that work better on the SMS VDP side of things?

 

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Oh I know the differences are due to the VDP changes. I only took the captures I did as a point of comparison. Many games are fine to play in this setup even with the changes in the color palette present and I noticed something else as well. When playing Cosmic Avenger for instance, it scrolls smoother on the SMS vs on my actual CV. I think the main issue for me with this is how some games graphics appear to be corrupted such as the text in some homebrew games that is shown not being visible or in the game graphic elements in something like L'Abbye des Morts for instance? If you didn't know about the pits in the beginning screens of play on that game, you will simply fall and wonder why you died as an example. I figured games like it and others that show these artifacts are due to some programming tricks that perhaps the sg1000 mode isn't able to replicate.

 

If memory serves the vdp on the CV is connected to the NMI line on the z80 which is not the case on the SMS (or was that just the MSX …) … not sure if that alone explains anything plus I may be wrong, my memory is not that good anymore.

Edited Tuesday at 04:00 PM by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

35 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Yeah it seems to me that based on the palette that the SMS VDP is using, that the medium red on the SMS would be pretty close to the dark red on the CV's actual VDP? But I'm not really sure how any of that would be changed here? Unless the games themselves were changed do use different colors that work better on the SMS VDP side of things?

 

I believe the GameGear could do it as it sets the indices but not the palette itself (according to the page above) … does this adaptor work on a GameGear via its SMS mode?

[speculation based on v9 os of the old master everdrive https://krikzz.com/pub/support/master-everdrive/v1/os-bin/chagelist.txt … that change afaik only affects GameGear but it may just use an identical palette … not sure]

 

Wrt a real SMS I am pretty sure it is not possible (or by now we would be playing sg1000 games with proper colors on sms via flash carts) and each game gfx assets may have to be fixed separately.

Edited Tuesday at 04:26 PM by phoenixdownita

[RockLobster]

9 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

my memory is not that good anymore.

Don't worry. 

 

This is very common with 80's consoles and old farts.  A simple chip replacement addresses both.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, phoenixdownita said:

If memory serves the vdp on the CV is connected to the NMI line on the z80 which is not the case on the SMS (or was that just the MSX …) … not sure if that alone explains anything plus I may be wrong, my memory is not that good anymore.

I did notice there is a dedicated z80 inside the Colecoco adapter. Perhaps that explains part of what I was experiencing?

 

[rednakes1]

OK guys I increased the contrast and now it looks a little better to differentiate the browns from the black background (Donoey Kong and Cosmic Avenger).  If I want to see the browns better I could increase the brightness.

[RockLobster]

2 hours ago, rednakes1 said:

OK guys I increased the contrast and now it looks a little better to differentiate the browns from the black background (Donoey Kong and Cosmic Avenger)

how does it look now compared to some of the photos above?

[+Gemintronic]

I'm 7th on the interest list but haven't heard anything.  Excited to see John Hancock is showing off a unit soon. 

 

Figured I'd double check to make sure I understand the process.  Is the ordering process on that other forum replacing the interest list?  It'd suck to lose my place in line

[mitsurugi-w]

We hadn't been contacting people on the list individually.  We suspected we made enough units to cover initial demand so just told everyone to contact me.

[dipdoodle]

I've read through and tried to catch up on the testing people have done so far.  I will have mine next month (long story but not for here)

 

Anyway I see lots of people with modded systems which especially for the sms2 will be the norm I think because almost no one will be playing RF only consoles these days. And once you open it for av mods you end up ordering other experience enhancing mods like the pause button mod

 

A few thoughts and ideas

 

If it is determined that the sms2 is more likely to have glitches than sms1 then my hunch would be related more to the changes in the VDP between the two consoles. And one way that could rule that out is to use a pal va3 model 1, which uses the same Io chip and vdp as the sms2 normally have. As well as there is a sms2 from usa and France which use the vdp and Io chip the model 1 normally have 

 

For controller input options, what about supporting a Sega Genesis 6 button controller? That gives 5 extra face buttons vs an sms controller and would be readable entirely by software, no hardware mods required and the controllers are easily available and directly pin compatible.

 

For the common pause mod people do, this adds a new button and some diodes to simultaneous press up+down or sometimes left+right and when received by the system it sends a pulse to the actual pause button.  The system itself ignores these 2 impossible combinations by default but I believe it is possible to have a flash cart read them, not sure.

 

For the video stuff and rgb colors, there won't be a fix. Not on sms. The vdp simply has different color palette as pheonixdownita link shows

[+Apocalypse]

@Gemintronic don't worry, @mitsurugi-w has an adapter ready to be sent to you. Just get in touch guys to arrange payment and shipping.

 

@dipdoodle if using OG carts (from BITD, not modern releases) you shouldn't experience any glitch whatever the model you have.

 

For MD controllers, in order to read the extra buttons you need to set one pin on the controller port as an output then toggle it (2 to 1 mux). That would mean inserting code somewhere, somehow.

 

The PAUSE mod is just conflicting with the scheme I'm using to simulate the keypad: PAUSE will be detected so as both directions being pressed.

e.g. if you press PAUSE on the controller and try to simulate key 1 by pressing the left/up diagonal, what will be seen is either UP + DOWN + LEFT (UP + DOWN = PAUSE) or LEFT + RIGHT + UP (LEFT + RIGHT = PAUSE).

[RockLobster]

4 hours ago, dipdoodle said:

Anyway I see lots of people with modded systems which especially for the sms2 will be the norm I think because almost no one will be playing RF only consoles these days.

Possibly off topic for this thread but in terms of any kinda of impact as the result of model variants...

 

While AtariAge buyers are skewed from the general population, aren't the vast majority of sales the SMS Model 1 especially in N.America?