Was it worth it upgrading to a 128 from a C64?

[Chinese Cake]

At the time I though the 128 was a pointless upgrade, for games and for general computing. Almost every expert I talked to or ales person who was knowledgeable and were honest called the 128 a "scam upgrade" putting it mildly. Of course, that may have been just people who were expecting more out of the 128 than what came out. In the end I and many others stayed with the C64 and didn't see any reason to upgrade (though the casing was stylish) at all.

 

So for those who did get a 128 or who have compared the 128 to the C64, was it actually worth the upgrade at the time? Do any games take advantage of it? Any productivity or various other software that were improved? Faster loading? Compatibility with add-ons and accessories?  

[+Rick Reynolds]

I'm kind of interested in this question as well. I don't think I knew about the C128 back in the day, but just the name would have made me want it.

 

From other retrospectives I've seen, I think it didn't end up being a big step up just because not much original software got made for it.  But I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

[Casey]

I never had a C-64 but I did have a 128 that spent 95% of its time in C-64 mode, so from my perspective I could have easily just gotten a 64 and been fine.  (I didn't buy the 128/1571 - it was a Christmas gift).

 

However, while almost all of the games I had were 64 games, as time went on, developers figured out how to make them autoboot in 128 mode, which also allowed them to load in fast, and then switch to 64 mode to run the actual game.  Probably the only 128 specific feature I ever was able to take advantage of.

 

I do remember the SpeedScript word processor from COMPUTE! was patched to use the 80 column display from 64 mode before a 128 version was published.  I never had a monitor that could display 80 columns, just using a TV set for the display, so I never was able to really take advantage of that.  But I also think hacks like that were pretty rare.

 

I think if you were a GEOS user, the 128 versions would have given you a much better experience than the 64 version, due to the 80 column display and being able to run at 2 MHz.

[+SpiceWare]

For me, yes.

 

I wrote a BBS that I first ran on my VIC-20, migrated to a 64, and finally the 128. I was writing a version for my Amiga when I gained access to the internet and realized that was the future. Here's a blog entry about my BBS, which featured realtime music at 300 baud, on-the-fly font control, sprite support, and even joystick support for online games.

 

Main benefit for the BBS was significantly faster disk performance.  This was not only for data, but also programs as my BBS was comprised of multiple BASIC programs - you could load a BASIC program from another BASIC program while preserving all the variables. The 128's drives also held more data.

 

Other benefits were faster performance (2 MHz vs 1 MHz) and 80 columns. I had a 14" TV with CGA input that worked great for the 80 column output.

 

CP/M support was also interesting - a friend used CP/M on a TRS-80, we put one of his disks in my 1571. The programs loaded and ran just fine, though were a little slower than on his system.

 

I also wrote one of the ~30 games that used the 128's 80 column display.

 

 

[Virtualsky]

3 hours ago, SpiceWare said:

I also wrote one of the ~30 games that used the 128's 80 column display.

 

Cool!  I like Alien Invaders.  It's a very good implementation of Space Invaders.

 

To be very honest, when I first got my C128, I rarely ever used anything than the C64 mode.  One reason was because I didn't really know of, or have access to, the software available for the C128.  I also didn't have the proper monitor to run in 80 column mode.  But, that aside, I was really glad I got the C128.  It was more comfortable to type on (I used GEOS quite a bit back then) than my breadbin 64.

 

Now, once the early 2000s rolled in, I started to discover for the first time all of the software that was published for the C128 (thanks to the wonders of the Internet).  Most importantly, I now had access to the office-type software that was mostly published on Loadstar and UpTime.  I also had a proper monitor that I could use 80 column mode.  It was well over 13 years since getting my C128, but now to discover all of these applications, I'm very glad I upgraded to my C128.  If I knew about and had this software back "in the day", I would have been using it for much more than just GO64.  And GEOS 128 would have been fantastic to have back then, too!

 

Many of the productivity software I used in 64 mode has now been "upgraded" to something specific to the 128.  I still use it for quite a bit of things, other than just C64 gaming.  And in this respect, I'm very glad I upgraded, even though I couldn't really appreciate it way back then, when I did.

 

If you were just gaming on your C64, then the upgrade probably wouldn't have been worth it to you.  But, if you did office/productivity work on it, I think it was worth it; as well as the upgraded 1571 disk drive (with burst mode) and 80 column screen.  GEOS 128, ArcheType, Free Base, Turbo Calc, Master File II, are all excellent office-type programs for the C128.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Virtualsky
correction

[+OLD CS1]

Initially, not really.  All of the stuff I had was for the Commodore 64, especially games.  My WarpSpeed cartridge works in 128 mode, which was a big start to usefulness in my eyes.

 

Within a few weeks I had a number of 128 programs: DesTerm, GEOS 128, QWKRR (QWK reader,) Zed 128 (80 column text editor,) and a couple of others to get me going.  CP/M mode also helped me as I found a number of good CP/M programs, like C and COBOL compilers for school.

 

By a couple of months, I was working between 128 and 64 modes equally and I was very pleased with my upgrade.

[digdugnate]

For us it was definitely worth the upgrade!  We had started to shift towards using the computer for productivity (spreadsheeting/word processing) so 80 column mode was a natural winner.  CP/M made for a compelling argument, too.

 

The vast majority of the games (which of course was what I was interested in) ran in C64 mode just fine.

 

We'd later sell our C128 for a Tandy PC-Compatible, but I sure miss that C128.

[Virtualsky]

41 minutes ago, digdugnate said:

We'd later sell our C128 for a Tandy PC-Compatible, but I sure miss that C128.

Funny... my next computer was a 486 I bought from Radio Shack, too.  I still used my C128, but I had to have a 486 so I could play X-Wing Fighter.  I was just so impressed with that game, I had to have it... and of course the B-Wing followup and then Tie Fighter after that.

[+OLD CS1]

Another note about upgrading to the 128: getting an 80 column monitor as my 128 was second hand and the guy kept his monitor for his new Amiga.  I had been using a green phosphor Apple monitor with my 64 as the color TV was not satisfactory (and given to my TI.)  I remembered seeing an 80 column card in use on the monitor and suspected it would work just fine with the 128, so I made a special cable to take the monochrome signal from the 128's RGBI port and modified the Apple monitor with a video input selector switch.  I was a Commodore boy living in an Apple green world.

 

Sometime shortly afterward I managed to pick up a PCjr monitor and made an adapter to connect to the 128.

 

♪♬ I was living in an Apple green world,

 And I was such a Commodore boy! ♪♬

[Arnuphis]

The answer to any computer question of this type is always 'depends what you are using it for'. If it was solely for games then probably not really worth the upgrade at the time. However if you were into productivity or using GEOS or wanted to look at CP/M then it was an excellent upgrade. Being able to fall back on C64 software was also an added bonus. This alone made the 128 more of a success than the C16/Plus/4.

[Atari 6900]

For me, totally. I was into the c/pm scene and hunting down 128 specific software. It really was a powerful 8bit computer. 

[oracle_jedi]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:44 AM, Arnuphis said:

 This alone made the 128 more of a success than the C16/Plus/4.

 

Not a very high bar though....

[Atari 6900]

Anyone remember the iPaint and iPort software package for the 128? It used the 64k 80 column mode and could render 640x400 interlaced images. With the iPort you could convert and view early gif images.

[TheDash]

My friend was a game programmer back in the day, and he 'upgraded' to the C128 because he swore the keyboard was better. Still used it as a C64 tho!

[Lostdragon]

From a gaming perspective, your looking at things like the  following native C128 titles:

 

A Mind Forever Voyaging (Infocom)
Backgammon 
Beyond Zork (Infocom(80 Column Mode)
Bureaucracy (1987)(Infocom)(80 Columns Mode)
Burgerwhop (Brian L. Copeland)
Das Ding (1988)(Commodore Disk)
Dice Poker (Louis Avanz)(CW)
Elite 128 (1985)(Firebird)
Elite128 v0.8 (1985)(Firebird)
Elite128 v0.9 (1985)(Firebird)
Hearts (80 Column Mode)
Invaders 128 (Spiceware)
Kickstart 128(Mr. Chip)
Kickstart 2 (1985)(Mr. Chip)
Last v8 
Mah-Jong 
Mikes Maze
Millifoot 80 (1988)
Rocky Horror Picture Show 128, The (1986)(CRL)
Seeraeube (Christian Baenke)
Trader v2.2 
Trinity (Infocom)

 

 

Then you have C128 Enhanced titles like:

 

Test Drive 2

Ultima V
Alleykat

 Morpheus:Always remember this one, as Jane Whittaker claimed he'd coded it, wasn't even aware it was 128K enhanced 😂

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Atari 6900]

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

From a gaming perspective, your looking at things like the  following native C128 titles:

 

A Mind Forever Voyaging (Infocom)
Backgammon 
Beyond Zork (Infocom(80 Column Mode)
Bureaucracy (1987)(Infocom)(80 Columns Mode)
Burgerwhop (Brian L. Copeland)
Das Ding (1988)(Commodore Disk)
Dice Poker (Louis Avanz)(CW)
Elite 128 (1985)(Firebird)
Elite128 v0.8 (1985)(Firebird)
Elite128 v0.9 (1985)(Firebird)
Hearts (80 Column Mode)
Invaders 128 (Spiceware)
Kickstart 128(Mr. Chip)
Kickstart 2 (1985)(Mr. Chip)
Last v8 
Mah-Jong 
Mikes Maze
Millifoot 80 (1988)
Rocky Horror Picture Show 128, The (1986)(CRL)
Seeraeube (Christian Baenke)
Trader v2.2 
Trinity (Infocom)

 

 

Then you have C128 Enhanced titles like:

 

Test Drive 2

Ultima V
Alleykat

 Morpheus:Always remember this one, as Jane Whittaker claimed he'd coded it, wasn't even aware it was 128K enhanced 😂

Gunship by Microprose was also enhanced. Didn’t know about Test Drive 2 though.

[+OLD CS1]

9 hours ago, TheDash said:

My friend was a game programmer back in the day, and he 'upgraded' to the C128 because he swore the keyboard was better. Still used it as a C64 tho!

While I cannot say I dislike the 64 keyboard, I can see that the 128 is better-liked.  I also thought the SX-64 keyboard had a better feel to it.

7 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Then you have C128 Enhanced titles

Enhanced how?  Test Drive 2 and Gunship??  Two games I played the absolute shit out of on my 64.

 

In high school, a buddy of mine used to come over after school and we would either do a Gunship campaign or fire up Pool of Radiance.

[Atari 6900]

51 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

While I cannot say I dislike the 64 keyboard, I can see that the 128 is better-liked.  I also thought the SX-64 keyboard had a better feel to it.

Enhanced how?  Test Drive 2 and Gunship??  Two games I played the absolute shit out of on my 64.

 

In high school, a buddy of mine used to come over after school and we would either do a Gunship campaign or fire up Pool of Radiance.

Gunship used the fast mode when loading certain segments of the game and auto booted when in 128 mode.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, OLD CS1 said:

While I cannot say I dislike the 64 keyboard, I can see that the 128 is better-liked.  I also thought the SX-64 keyboard had a better feel to it.

Enhanced how?  Test Drive 2 and Gunship??  Two games I played the absolute shit out of on my 64.

 

In high school, a buddy of mine used to come over after school and we would either do a Gunship campaign or fire up Pool of Radiance.

Trivia
Commodore 64 version
The Commodore 64 version has a better frame rate when played on a Commodore 128, because it switches the processor to 2 MHz mode while the TV's or monitor's electron beam is off-screen. (The VIC chip can't handle a 2 MHz clock frequency, so it would show garbage on the screen.

 

 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/duel-test-drive-ii

 

 

The coder apparently confirmed this. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lostdragon

[+OLD CS1]

8 hours ago, Atari 6900 said:

Gunship used the fast mode when loading certain segments of the game and auto booted when in 128 mode.

Ah, I never saw that as an enhancement.  Still cool, though.  I was under the impression that a lot of late games with V-MAX! protection auto-booted into 64 mode on the 128.

 

7 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Trivia
Commodore 64 version
The Commodore 64 version has a better frame rate when played on a Commodore 128, because it switches the processor to 2 MHz mode while the TV's or monitor's electron beam is off-screen. (The VIC chip can't handle a 2 MHz clock frequency, so it would show garbage on the screen.

 

 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/duel-test-drive-ii

 

 

The coder apparently confirmed this. 

That is pretty smart.  I programmed my BBS to do the same thing, and saw at least one "Gazette" article describing this facility.

[Atari 6900]

Sublogic’s Stealth Fighter also took advantage of some of the 128s processing power when booted on the 128.

[Virtualsky]

There's also:

Frantic Freddie II

Magic Blocks

Knight's Quest (80 column)

Hydra (80 column)

Astra Invaders 3 (80 column)

Labyrinth 128 (80 column)

Wreck of the Copericus

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Virtualsky

[motrucker]

Back then, just before the Amiga came out I bought a C-128, 1571 and a 1750 REU as soon as they were available. I still think the C-128 was the best 8 bit computer released.

There were loads of great software packages for the C-128. GEOS was great on the C-128 in 80 columns (mostly - I wish they had made GeoPublisher 80 columns). It sure didn't stop there, or with games either............

 

[Lostdragon]

I probably should of made an attempt to detail the extras found in C128 games, so in attempt to make ammends:

 

Rocky Horror Show features  reworked graphics (more detailed characters and more colourful backgrounds), plus new locations.

The Last V8 contains extra level with a slightly more open layout and more advanced mission objectives.

For example, the opening level  revolves around picking up fuel canisters inside a secret base, instead of the 64K version's plain objectives of survival and punctualness.

Better speech? 

Kick Start II has different courses and obstacles. 

 

 

Some of Andrew Braybrook's  titles Alleykat, Morpheus etc detect and to some degree  use the  extra power to throw more stuff at the player,he detailed Morpheus in the Zzap 64 Making of feature, think it runs faster, has more stars on the screen, in Alleykat, the Katerkiller is larger..

Uridium Plus might increase  the max speed of the Manta craft, have extra shots on-screen. 

Stratton:The playing area was larger with more variety in the graphics and the difficulty level was slightly easier

 

 

Ultima V on the 128 has music playing, the 64k version only has sound FX. 

 

Elite.. I believe the 128 hack increases the framerate (claims say by 40%),gives an autopilot upgrade to the docking computer ( availabe on worlds with   tech level 10 and above), option to sell ship equipment and an an I.F.F. system is available on worlds with tech level 10 or higher.