SIDE2/3 differences

[+slx]

What are the functional differences between the two except for SD iso CF?

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

Quite considerable

 

Also the distinction needs to be made between SIDE3 and and the latest SIDE 3.1

 

Firslty check this out:

 

Source: https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3-beta-loader/

 

The main bonus feature SIDE3 has over SIDE2 is that you can mount carts up to 1MB whereas SIDE2 couldn't mount carts.

 

Also SIDE3 on it's own has limited ATR support and when integrated with U1MB full ATR support. SIDE2 doesn't.

 

Check this video out (where it starts at the point of describing the newer SIDE3.1)

 

 

The main pointd between SIDE2 and SIDE3 (excluding 3.1):

 

SIDE2:

• On-board SpartaDOS X
• Real-Time Clock
• Read only FAT
• Compact Flash card slot
• Switchable loader and SDX modes
• Programmable "SIDE button"
• 256KB external flash application cartridge space

 

SIDE3:

 

• Use of inexpensive, easily sourced SD cards instead of CF cards
• On-board SpartaDOS X
• Real-Time Clock
• Switchable loader and SDX modes
• Programmable "SIDE button"
• Emulation of a wide range of cartridge types, up to 1MB in size
• Real time clock with battery-backed NVRAM
• A massive 8MB of flash ROM and 8MB of fast SRAM
• Versatile ROM/RAM access with DMA engine
• Hot-swappable media
• Dual mode (SDX/Loader) operation, controlled by a switch
• Menu button (doubles as ATR swap button when used with Ultimate 1MB)
• The SIDE3 loader firmware and with beta a whole set of new features including the Fat DOS read and functionality. (This r/w functionality also having been integrated in the Loader menu itself - very handy) 

 

I am probably missing out things.

 

SIDE3 also has the bonus of FJC's beta loader which support FAT read AND write and it's own FAT DOS. This works for both SIDE3 and 3.1 carts

 

If you considering the SIDE3 cart make sure you get SIDE3.1 as the hardware is future proofed for up to 1MB external ram upgrade for any XE machine it plugs into and also hopefully at some stage Atari 800Xl and 600XL machines too.

 

More info above SIDE3 in the video above

 

Also for anything related to SIDE3 check out FJC's website:https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3-beta-loader/ where aside manuals there are also video's introducing the SIDE3 loader beta firmware.

New features are always in the pipeline with FJC's SIDE3 firmwares so I'd watch his website and AA announcements. 

 

IMHO if in the market for a Side cart it's definitely worth going for a SIDE3 over a SIDE2 and again a SIDE3.1 over the SIDE3 (the latter SIDE3 carts sell for the same price so no brainer ensuring you have the latest one with the extra hardware features, etc.)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[flashjazzcat]

I'll be changing that table shortly, since 'Simultaneous HDD/ATR/CAR' is technically possible with AVG, although this was not immediately obvious to me and requires the SIO cable.

 

There'll be a SIDE3 loader update imminently, as well, which corrects a pretty nasty bug in the beta concerning cartridge mounting (thanks to @Beeblebrox for reminding me of the problem and testing the fix). This should cure about half the issues reported over the past couple of months; the rest tends to require minor modification of the host machine.

 

[+Stephen]

5 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

IMHO if in the market for a Side cart it's definitely worth going for a SIDE3 over a SIDE2 and again a SIDE3.1 over the SIDE3 (the latter SIDE3 carts sell for the same price so no brainer ensuring you have the latest one with the extra hardware features, etc.)

Always the bane of being an early adopter (trying to buy everything on pre-order).  I've not even updated the firmware on my original SIDE3 yet, and there's already a newer version of the hardware.

[Beeblebrox]

31 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Always the bane of being an early adopter (trying to buy everything on pre-order).  I've not even updated the firmware on my original SIDE3 yet, and there's already a newer version of the hardware.

The good thing is with the SIDE3 beta loader you still get the majority of the new functionality running on the SIDE3. It's just Side3.1 will give you the future option of the plugin ram upgrade and a few more things in the pipeline if I'm not mistaken.

I'd be perfectly happy with SIDE3. (It's not as if 3.1 has made it obsolete). I was just saying if someone doesn't already own a SIDE3 already and are considering buying one it makes sense when buying to make sure you are getting a 3.1 as it is the same price.)

 

For your SIDE3 just pop the 0.47 Oct 22 version of the SIDE3 beta loader on it and enjoy testing it. 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[xxl]

due to the fact that this device has no connection with SIO, there is no physical possibility to write that it has full support for ATR even in a computer with the extension.

[+remowilliams]

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

For your SIDE3 just pop the 0.47 Oct 22 version of the SIDE3 beta loader on it and enjoy testing it. 

 

Yeah.. I did that with .67c and there was no enjoyment to be had 😄

 

Not the loaders code fault of course.

[Beeblebrox]

33 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

 

Yeah.. I did that with .67c and there was no enjoyment to be had 😄

 

Not the loaders code fault of course.

Can you elaborate?

 

.67c is a working beta currently being tested by the community so by definition a work in progress.  feedback any issues so fjc can factor it in where possible. 

 

Edit: 0.47 will fix the car mounting issue in the beta. Working really well. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[+remowilliams]

26 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Can you elaborate?

 

Yes, I mentioned it in the other thread.  https://forums.atariage.com/topic/337634-new-side3-loader-testing-and-development-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5122056

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

Imagine my shock.

Edited November 20, 2022 by flashjazzcat

[xxl]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Imagine my shock.

Thank you, but it does not change the fact that the table is misleading - it is very easy to create an ATR that this device will not support. This device does not have full ATR support. Yes, I imagine your shock, don't be offended by the facts 🙂

[flashjazzcat]

As the table here shows, the precedent of the author/designer using whichever definition of 'full' that puts 'yes' in the column of their favoured device and a 'no' in that of the competitor was set a long time ago. ATRs which don't work without an SIO connection are generally limited to those using custom serial loaders which bypass the OS entirely, and most users understand this and appreciate the fact the ATRs which do work load multiple times faster than any SIO solution. Of course it's very easy to create an ATR that the device will not support if you spend much of your time deliberately creating ATRs that the device will not support and then advertising the fact on forums and using this as a specious argument that slow SIO loaders are canonically superior to anything faster.

 

The pendantic reader might notify the author of the above linked table that it is out of date with respect to one other 'no' in the SIDE3 column which should now be a 'yes', while deftly avoiding anything pertaining to non-volatile RAM, real-time clocks, copying entire directory trees, etc, etc. Not that I'm interested in this kind of oneupmanship since AVG is a nice, popular device and I'm sure recently added SIDE3 features are the last thing on tmp's mind.

 

 

 

[as...]

Side 3 full atr support?

For examples:

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9083

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9748

and etc.

it will work on side 3?

Edited November 20, 2022 by as...

[xxl]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Of course it's very easy to create an ATR that the device will not support if you spend much of your time deliberately creating ATRs that the device will not support and then advertising the fact on forums and using this as a specious argument that slow SIO loaders are canonically superior to anything faster.

 

25 minutes ago, as... said:

Side 3 full air support?

For examples:

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9083

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9748

and etc.

it will work on side 3?

yes, those groups in 1995 or 1997 spent a lot of time to write a program that won't work on side3.

 

--

this device ignores 2 out of 3 canonical load sources. fact.

Edited November 20, 2022 by xxl

[as...]

On side #1, side #2 this product not working.
But avgcart with sio cable working, sio2sd also working.

Off course on the ide+ also not working.

 

I don't have side#3 that's why I'm asking about side#3.

 

 

@xxlThere are more productions that only work with sio. Like: Joyride, Bitter Reality and more.

Edited November 20, 2022 by as...

[IndusGT]

 I thought AVG cart already gave a RAM extension of 576K w/ the PBI cable.

[+slx]

Thanks for all explanations! 

[Stormtrooper of Death]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:35 AM, IndusGT said:

 I thought AVG cart already gave a RAM extension of 576K w/ the PBI cable.

It does.

[bfollowell]

I debated starting a new thread or reviving this one after a four-month nap. You can see which I decided.

 

I've never used any Side card before, with my only Multi-Cart being an Ultimate cart. As much as I liked that cart, the Side3 is just so much more than a run of the mill multi-cart, especially when combined with an U1MB upgrade. In preparation of repairing my ailing 800XL, I purchased a 64k SRAM Module (v3), a UAV, and a Side3 v3.1 cart. I'll be purchasing an U1MB as soon as Marlin has them back in stock at The Brewing Academy. I'm curious about the Side3. With Atari 8-bit software, there's really no need for massive capacity SD cards, but it's getting harder to find the "smaller" cards these days. Is the Side3 v3.1 compatible with the whole range of SD cards? SD, SDHC, and SDXC? Does anyone know the theoretical size limit of the Side3 cart? Will it accept all the way up to a 2TB SDXC card? Again, I know that would be crazy overkill, and I certainly have no plans to waste the money on anything nearly so large. I'm just curious of the actual limitations of the cart.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[Beeblebrox]

I think you can run with up to 128GB sdcards. I've run 8GB, 16GB, 32GB and 64GB cards with no issues.

 

There have been whole threads on the rating of cards, brands, and other specs - all of which have an effect on performance. Or at least at some stage these did. Some brands are ones to avoid.

Best scour AA threads for these as it's been discussed at length.

 

I'd go for a 16GB or 32GB card if you plan on popping loads of games, demos, and images as well as PDM music files. Some of my much played Stereo PDM music tracks are 8-12GB IIRC correctly.

 

The main selling points for me with SIDE3 (aside the usual things like 1MB car mounting (you get with AVG and Ultimate as well),are:

 

• FJC's excellent loader and the current firmware having the FATFMS read/write functionality and custom FAT CMS DOS. More info on FJC's pages: https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3/
• The features the loader itself boasts by way of file management.
• The loader can be set to remember the last folder and even file you loaded and often pressing escape takes you back to the loader, (after say loading an image or playing a music file).
• Speed - loading software on SIDE3 is fast. Navigating files and folders is fast also.
• Inbuilt PDM music player. If you have your Atari hooked up to powered speakers it's great and tracks load and play almost instantly. Even better if you have a Stereo enabled A8. Just get to Fujiconvert and start converting those tracks.(https://lybrown.github.io/fujiconvert/) Also check out the Fujiconvert thread.
• SIDE3's symbiotic hardware fucntionality when used in conjunction with the excelent U1MB.

 

It goes without saying for the SIDE3 and also AVG - both FJC and TMP respectively provide excellent support and features for these two carts. FJC's dedication to the SIDE3 and also U1MB firmwares is legendary.

[bfollowell]

1 minute ago, Beeblebrox said:

I think you can run with up to 128GB sdcards. I've run 8GB, 16GB, 32GB and 64GB cards with no issues.

 

There have been whole threads on the rating of cards, brands, and other specs - all of which have an effect on performance. Or at least at some stage these did. Some brands are ones to avoid.

Best scour AA threads for these as it's been discussed at length.

 

I'd go for a 16GB or 32GB card if you plan on popping loads of games, demos, and images as well as PDM music files. Some of my much played Stereo PDM music tracks are 8-12GB IIRC correctly.

 

The main selling points for me with SIDE3 (aside the usual things like 1MB car mounting (you get with AVG and Ultimate as well),are:

 

• FJC's excellent loader and the current firmware having the FATFMS read/write functionality and custom FAT CMS DOS. More info on FJC's pages: https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3/
• The features the loader itself boasts by way of file management.
• The loader can be set to remember the last folder and even file you loaded and often pressing escape takes you back to the loader, (after say loading an image or playing a music file).
• Speed - loading software on SIDE3 is fast. Navigating files and folders is fast also.
• Inbuilt PDM music player. If you have your Atari hooked up to powered speakers it's great and tracks load and play almost instantly. Even better if you have a Stereo enabled A8. Just get to Fujiconvert and start converting those tracks.(https://lybrown.github.io/fujiconvert/) Also check out the Fujiconvert thread.
• SIDE3's symbiotic hardware fucntionality when used in conjunction with the excelent U1MB.

 

It goes without saying for the SIDE3 and also AVG - both FJC and TMP respectively provide excellent support and features for these two carts. FJC's dedication to the SIDE3 and also U1MB firmwares is legendary.

Thanks @Beeblebrox. I appreciate your reply. I don't see myself ever getting into pdm music or anything along those lines. I'll mainly be using it as a cart emulator, for xex files, and as an 8-bit hard drive for atr storage, though I have a Fujinet v1.5 as well, so either are sort of redundant when it comes to atr storage/access. I'm not sure of the number of hd partitions or the size of each that I can access from the Side3, so that's probably the main reason I curious about size limitations. Either way, it sounds like we can use fairly large capacity cards, which allows me to be just about as lazy and unorganized as I care to be and still have plenty of storage space.

 

[Beeblebrox]

@bfollowellNo worries. You can set up many partitions (FAT and APT). Check out FJC's video tutorial's on the subject:https://atari8.co.uk/apt/toolkit/

 

and also these two vids (where these were for the beta side3 loader but are still totally relevant now it's been released and is present in the latest firmware): 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJgnJ10SVzU&t=1483s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roID-Rzy5Aw&t=1477s

 

I find watching the latter two vids really gives you a great grounding.

 

Being able to not only read/ but write also to FAT is pretty amazing. The Fat writing functionality in the Side3 loader alone means you can create new ATR disk images of up to 32MB in size, move, copy, rename files and folders, etc etc, without leaving the loader. The FAT based CMS mini DOS functions are great also.

 

Some old image grabs from the beta vids but you get the gist:

 

 

     

 

BTW I found a segment in the latter video where FJC talks about SDcard compatiblity (Video set to play at the point he starts to talk about it to save you having to find it ):

 

https://youtu.be/roID-Rzy5Aw?t=1626

 

Finally check out the updated Side3 loader firmware manual which covers it all in detail: https://atari8.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/SIDE3-Loader-Manual.pdf

 

I've said this before but is is quite amazing just how much functionality the latest SIDE3 loader firmware introduces over previous versions and the amount of work FJC put into this last year is nothing short of impressive to say the least.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[bfollowell]

Thanks again @Beeblebrox! Tons of useful information that will undoubtedly help me get up to speed on my new device. I look forward to getting my original 800XL going again, getting it upgraded, and starting to use my Side3. For years I've used SanDisk cards exclusively and, as a result, I've had very few issues with any device, though I know even SanDisk runs into compatibility issues occasionally.

 

Thanks again for the wealth of information. I look forward to watching through the videos at work tonight, on breaks and lunch, of course. 😜