Struggling with Atari 800 + 1050s

[Keatah]

On 12/10/2022 at 1:59 PM, mutil8 said:

OK - thanks guys - I will go the route of purchasing a power supply board. Would never have realized this was an option without the help.

 

Its weird, but this takes me all the way back to my start. Atari has always been a struggle for me. My first computer was a 400. Couldnt get anywhere with it.

Next computer was a apple IIe. learned 6502 (barely), did some minor consulting programming with it, and then a job due to it.

 

and still to this day I view the apple 8 bit line easier to figure out and program on than the atari 8 bit. 

 

Apple II was always more imminently accessible and easier to make do my bidding. Heh. And I had both, Apple II and Atari 400/800. State of affairs may have stemmed from the rigid bare-metal'ish TTL aura about it. Or maybe it was the excellent documentation. Came with tutorial material understandable by a kid. And it encouraged personal discovery. Just complex enough (to a kid) to teach them how to find information on their own. A valuable skill.

[mutil8]

pokey chip close to $100? with no guarantee this will fix the issue Im starting to think getting 65xe or similar is better path to take.

[_The Doctor__]

could try pokeymax or pokeyone chips

[Beeblebrox]

@mutil8Thanks for posting the image of your Hi-tek keyboard. That will be tricky to fix if the white plastic squares are starting to split. I don't know of any replacement parts for it. (3D printed square parts is an option but unlesss really good printing quality is used they are lighly to be too roughly printed to not stick themselves.

 

If you are giving up on the 800, (and I am sure this goes without saying), you can sell it on for parts to an Atarian near you. I've heard of some people simply throwing these beauties away, which - aside from an environmental standpoint - is a total waste of a 40 year old vintage computer. Someone will be able to salvage the casing, keycaps, components, cages, etc etc. I'd take it off your hands but I am in the UK.

 

If you are looking for another A8 then personally I'd look to get either an 800XL or 600XL, (and easily upgrade the latter from 16k to 64k sa 600XLs are pre-socketed).

 

600/800XLs are generally better built and easier to maintain. If getting an 800XL look for one with a label that states made in Hong Kong as it will be fully socketed also. 65XE/130Xe and 800XE computers were not socketed in the factory and if you do want to ever socket it yourself they are prone to lifting traces/viasa. XLs PCB are tougher. Talking from personal experience.

 

Plus IMHO I really do not like the cart port access at the back of 65/130/800XEs. The top mounted cart port is so much easier to access.

 

Wish you like if you do perservere with the 800 fix. It's worth it but totally depends on hoe much time and effort you wish to put into it.

[mutil8]

Not sure how I will proceed. Of course I wouldnt just trash it - it definately has value. I suspect it would be a very easy for someone with atari/hardware experience to identify and repair the problem.

Not having those skills, it is obviously not easy for me. Having spent close to  $300 now to get it up and running and waiting weeks on end for parts to arrive, only to not solve the issue is frustrating.

I was able to solve poor video quality finally by purchasing a magnavox LCD monitor and a Atari to s-video cable, after trying another video converter to a flat screen monitor (never clear graphics).

However puchasing another 1050 drive and then new power board for the 800 has not solved the sio / 1050 issue. Information given to me here indicates replacing pokey chip could resolve the issue,

but obviously might not. Chip looks to be 80+ $.

The_Doctor suggested pokeymax or pokeyone - something I am not familiar with. Doing a brief search for these looks like price is close to a regular pokey chip. I could be wrong.

 

One question I have is if the pokey is socketed or soldered in?

[Beeblebrox]

@mutil8  I fell your pain. Been there before with XEs.

 

So I wonder if there is anyone near you with the skills to diagnose the issue?

 

Also - no chips on the 800 are soldered on - they are all socketed. 

 

The modern replacements for Pokey such as pokey max are stereo chips and of course new - so better investment.

 

IMHO if sourcing a replacement old Pokey chip it makes no sense to buy it separately as you could pick up an entire XL or XE for the same price and potentially salvage it. 

 

As I say if you do this with a stock 65/130/800XEthe Pokey chip will be soldered in. If a stock Taiwanese mand 800XL it will very likely be soldered in. If a Hong Kong made 800XL it will be socketed, and afaik any 600XLs will come fully socketed.

 

Makes sense to source an 800XL which is fully socketed. Try the Pokey from it in the 800 and if no joy then at least you have an 800XL which is either working of you could probably much easily fix. Then sell the 800 to cover it all. You will definitely sell the 800 - even in it's current state.

 

EDIT:  Here ya go - case in point - just searched Ebay and in the States there is a Hong Kong made non working 800XL:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285073397056?

 

IMHO it propably (he said optimistically) won't take much to get the 800XL working (probably a RAM issue - maybe a dead CPU). Either way you can borrow the Pokey from it which statistically is more likely to be working and - as I say - if no joy then you can do what I said above.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[_The Doctor__]

Listen very closely, I will share a trick that I have used to fix cabinet arcade game Pokey's and I've done it for the 8 bit as well...

crystal tin creep can kill a pokey over time, you can remelt the tin inside the pokey by baking it. I forget the temp and for how long but I did flip the chips over half way through the process. This yielded about 70 percent success and many of the chips are still in use today.

 

You can try it like others. some swear dead bug is best others right side up... I split the difference. This works for other old chips as well, it's not far from BGA reflow technique honestly (I wonder if that's why the first guy tried baking his pcb knowing our old trick)

 

It's got to be documented on the 'net somewhere.

Edited December 20, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Listen very closely, I will share a trick that I have used to fix cabinet arcade game Pokey's and I've done it for the 8 bit as well...

crystal tin creep can kill a pokey over time, you can remelt the tin inside the pokey by baking it. I forget the temp and for how long but I did flip the chips over half way through the process. This yielded about 70 percent success and many of the chips are still in use today.

 

You can try it like others. some swear dead bug is best others right side up... I split the difference. This works for other old chips as well, it's not far from BGA reflow technique honestly (I wonder if that's why the first guy tried baking his pcb knowing our old trick)

 

It's got to be documented on the 'net somewhere.

 Poot du Pokey in du oven....

[Keatah]

Pretty sure Adrian's Digital Basement and Arcade Jason did videos about baking chips.

[ClausB]

I have seen a few times when soldering on a suspect chip fixes it. Of course, I couldn't be sure whether it was just a bad solder connection.

[mutil8]

wow ok so sticking the antic chip in an oven is really a thing? I will probably take the 800 apart once again - ID the antic chip and go from there.

[BillC]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:19 AM, mutil8 said:

Yes he used to be located in bay area of california - where I am to this day. he had a retail store I barely remember driving to a couple times to purchase documentation. still have de re atari I bought from him decades ago.

He relocated years ago to wisconsin or some faraway state - He was telling me he moved all the inventory himself driving back and forth in a truck for days. Holy smokes.

He moved to El Dorado California, east of Sacramento.

Edited December 23, 2022 by BillC

[mutil8]

15 hours ago, BillC said:

He moved to El Dorado California, east of Sacramento.

yes youre right. I got him confused with 8 bit classics which is in WI.

 

On another note I found an affordable pokey chip from best electronics - this will most likely be my last attempt to get my 800s sio port functioning.

 

[BillC]

1 hour ago, mutil8 said:

yes youre right. I got him confused with 8 bit classics which is in WI.

 

On another note I found an affordable pokey chip from best electronics - this will most likely be my last attempt to get my 800s sio port functioning.

There's only so many possibilities for the SIO to fail, signal path(I include the SIO port in this)/and IC(POKEY) are among the most likely. The damaged SIO port made it reasonable to start there, replacing the power board replaced a good portion of the signal path in addition to the SIO port. Have you checked the the header between the main board/power board is good, no cold solder joints or corrosion?

[R.Cade]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:23 PM, _The Doctor__ said:

Listen very closely, I will share a trick that I have used to fix cabinet arcade game Pokey's and I've done it for the 8 bit as well...

crystal tin creep can kill a pokey over time, you can remelt the tin inside the pokey by baking it. I forget the temp and for how long but I did flip the chips over half way through the process. This yielded about 70 percent success and many of the chips are still in use today.

 

You can try it like others. some swear dead bug is best others right side up... I split the difference. This works for other old chips as well, it's not far from BGA reflow technique honestly (I wonder if that's why the first guy tried baking his pcb knowing our old trick)

 

It's got to be documented on the 'net somewhere.

Interesting. I tried baking about 30 Commodore SID and VIC-II chips that were dead and I had zero success with it. Maybe what goes wrong in those chips is not the same thing...

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Yes those chips die from thermal burnout, totally different mode of failure as they 'self bake'  

[mickster]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:21 AM, _The Doctor__ said:

could try pokeymax or pokeyone chips

those may not support serial i/o,  also they are pretty much unavailable.  Best thing would be to just buy another 8 bit until everything is fixed and running and then resell if you want the money back.

[_The Doctor__]

PokeyMax did SIO afair. PokeyOne does not last time I checked. PokeyOnes appear in stock at online sites but PokeyMax 1-3 are commanding 2 times their price and appear sold out in a few places I checked.

He's going with a real pokey so it's of no consequence.

[mutil8]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:22 PM, Keatah said:

Pretty sure Adrian's Digital Basement and Arcade Jason did videos about baking chips.

thanks - I watched this video a few nights ago. He baked a lot of chips, and if I recall correctly got a very small percentage of them working.

Decided not to go this route due to this, as well as fact I dont know what I am doing, and dont know the pokey chip is the issue.

If I did bake the chip, I wouldnt have a way to test it other than jam it back into the 800, hope it works, and hope it doesnt further damage the computer.

 

 

[Britishcar]

To be certain simple environmental oxidation on one or more of the POKEY chip's legs isn't the problem, be sure that you have lifted it from the socket, cleaned each leg carefully with either alcohol or better yet DeOxit (https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-Laboratories-D100L-2DB-Electric-Cleaner/dp/B0002BBVN2/ref=sr_1_7?crid=C1VLX3O0ZHU8&keywords=deoxit&qid=1671917906&sprefix=deoxit%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-7) and carefully reinsert the chip. Your 1050 may fire right up.

[Keatah]

58 minutes ago, mutil8 said:

Decided not to go this route due to this, as well as fact I dont know what I am doing, and dont know the pokey chip is the issue.

When it comes to baking chips I don't think anyone knows what's really happening. Could be bond wires are loose, could be 2 bits of metal are cracked, and the heat from all this baking moves things around to where it now makes contact again. And that is of course a guess. You'd need to do some pro-level failure analysis before and after, with imaging, and all that forensic stuff - to determine the precise cause. And that'll cost $$$.

 

58 minutes ago, mutil8 said:

If I did bake the chip, I wouldnt have a way to test it other than jam it back into the 800, hope it works, and hope it doesnt further damage the computer.

A wise precaution. Who knows if any new latent shorts are developed in the process. Ones that can appear after a certain logic condition arises.

 

Semiconductor whiskers are thing. Look up the NASA research behind it. I've seen them happen in some aluminum/zinc backplane cases and support panels. Without a microscope even!

[_The Doctor__]

when the choice is nothing or something, well sometimes something will have to do. But as stated, since they're buying NOS ones, no need to try, just send the old pokey to someone who will.

[mutil8]

4 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

when the choice is nothing or something, well sometimes something will have to do. But as stated, since they're buying NOS ones, no need to try, just send the old pokey to someone who will.

yes agreed. If I had no other option I might try baking. I just watched arcade jasons video on baking and testing pokey chips.

again limited but some success. He didnt seem optimistic about any chip restored this way to have longevity.

 

in any event the pokey from best electronics showed up today, along with an interesting book I ordered from him that I havent seen anywhere.

wondering if I should take any steps to address static electricity when removing old chip installing new chip. I may also clean and retest the old chip

as british car suggested.

watching arcade jasons video he just jams the pokeys into sockets - at least appears to me he isnt concerned about static.

 

dont have any anti static mat or anything similar. would simply touching metal laptop discharge static electricity?

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by mutil8

[_The Doctor__]

I always take precautions, learned the hard way. discharge to ground or a strap. Safe than sorry!

Clean and reseat means just that so of course if you have not you definitely should. deoxit for sockets and cards/card slots

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[TGB1718]

7 hours ago, mutil8 said:

dont have any anti static mat or anything similar. would simply touching metal laptop discharge static electricity?