Struggling with Atari 800 + 1050s

[TGB1718]

7 hours ago, mutil8 said:

dont have any anti static mat or anything similar. would simply touching metal laptop discharge static electricity?

Don't know why this double posted ???

Edited December 25, 2022 by TGB1718

[mutil8]

ok - installation of new pokey chip has not resolved issue. In fact at this point when I power up the 800 I simply get a blue screen.

Ive checked everything more than once dont see any simple issue like pokey chip in wrong or any cable not connected.

I will not be attempting any more repairs and will sell this to someone who has the skills to fix it or use for parts IF it has enough value to 

make it worthwhile. taking into account the high shipping costs I am not sure it will be financially viable, or worth the hassle.

 

I will be posting in marketplace.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered advice on repairs.

[BillC]

1 hour ago, mutil8 said:

ok - installation of new pokey chip has not resolved issue. In fact at this point when I power up the 800 I simply get a blue screen.

Ive checked everything more than once dont see any simple issue like pokey chip in wrong or any cable not connected.

I will not be attempting any more repairs and will sell this to someone who has the skills to fix it or use for parts IF it has enough value to 

make it worthwhile. taking into account the high shipping costs I am not sure it will be financially viable, or worth the hassle.

 

I will be posting in marketplace.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered advice on repairs.

I double checked the schematic, the COMMAND signal originates at pin 19(CB2) of the PIA(A102). Peripherals require this signal in order to respond to SIO requests.

Edited December 26, 2022 by BillC

[bfollowell]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:46 PM, mutil8 said:

wondering if I should take any steps to address static electricity when removing old chip installing new chip. I may also clean and retest the old chip as british car suggested.

watching arcade jasons video he just jams the pokeys into sockets - at least appears to me he isnt concerned about static.

 

dont have any anti static mat or anything similar. would simply touching metal laptop discharge static electricity?

 

Taking precautions is never a bad idea. That being said, I've been doing computer/electronics repairs and upgrades for over 35 years and, to be completely honest, I rarely use a static strap and I don't have any sort of grounded work mat, and I've never, ever had the first issue. Of course, I don't have carpet in my work area and I don't scuff my feet on the carpet on the way to work on my electronics or rub balloons on my arms before electronics work. I do make certain to touch some metal before I start working, just to discharge any static that I may have built up. Still, if you have a grounded work mat and a static strap, and working with those makes you feel more safe, by all means you should use them.

 

[Beeblebrox]

I've never had an issue with static but I generally touch a grounded metal source before doing any electrical work at the start. I think you are probably fine. 

 

One of my bug bears is buying and receiving populated Atari pcbs which have been wrapped in bubble wrap. The static that can build up in transit I believe isn't great for the chips. I always ask said pcb's are first put in an antistatic bag beforehand.

[Keatah]

The goal of static electricity protection is rather simple, you want everything including yourself to be at the same electrical potential. Doesn't matter what it is. Just that they're the same. And touching the ground planes (or power supply housing as taught in Apple II manuals) is a simple and good way to go about it.

 

For bonus points increase the RH.

 

Good solid advice taken from a time before the noise of the internet spawned myths through loud youtube videos and whatever else have you.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Keatah

[TZJB]

46 minutes ago, Keatah said:

The goal of static electricity protection is rather simple, you want everything including yourself to be at the same electrical potential. Doesn't matter what it is. Just that they're the same. And touching the ground planes (or power supply housing as taught in Apple II manuals) is a simple and good way to go about it.

 

For bonus points increase the RH.

 

Good solid advice taken from a time before the noise of the internet spawned myths through loud youtube videos and whatever else have you.

I agree that everything needs to be at the same electrical potential to limit damage from static electricity. Anti-static precautions were a big thing in the business that I worked in as they save early component failure and thus downtime and repair costs. Anti-static precautions normally rely on "leaking" everything to electrical earth to equalise the potential difference. Anti-static bonding cables have 2 MOhm resistors at each end of the cable to limit the discharge current and for safety should the cable accidentally become live. Discharging oneself directly to earth doesn't necessarily work that well as the item that you are working on is at an unknown potential unless it too is connected to earth, however I agree that touching a board ground plane would equalise the potential difference, but then you could be charged to a higher potential. In my opinion it is best practice to use an earthed anti-static mat connected to both the person and board/item via antistatic bonding cables.

[Keatah]

33 minutes ago, TZJB said:

In my opinion it is best practice to use an earthed anti-static mat connected to both the person and board/item via antistatic bonding cables.

Well sure. Absolutely.

 

When a problem crops up I think most hobbyists here are simply going to open up their classic console and start working on it. Not waiting 2-3 weeks for a proper and professional-grade anti-static mat and wrist strap to arrive. Not to mention the cost.

[Vyvyan B.]

I acquired multi8's 800 in the hope that it could be revived and... well, I'll just leave this here...

 

[_The Doctor__]

do we have a failure to orientate.

[Vyvyan B.]

  

21 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

do we have a failure to orientate.

 

We have a winner!

Edited January 14, 2023 by Vyvyan B.

[Bee]

Check the notch in the end of the socked and the notch of the chip are both in the same direction.  I think that socket points left and the chip is facing right.  Unplug rotate 180 degrees and plug it back in.

 

Thank you

[Vyvyan B.]

The pokey likely got flipped round from reseating the chips. The print on this one is upside-down so I could totally see that happening. Then when he found the broken pins in the SIO and replaced the power board, it still didn't work. Then he replaced the pokey, which was backwards and it didn't work again. I flipped the pokey back around and it's working fine. The old pokey works just fine too. I'm surprised that installing them backwards didn't damage them. This is a good example of why you should always double check your work.

[mimo]

2 hours ago, Vyvyan B. said:

This is a good example of why you should always double check your work.

And post pictures when asked.

Such a shame they spent all that money for such a simple fix

[Beeblebrox]

Yup, pretty much my default request when replying to posts requesting advice is to ask them to upload a hi res image of the PCB. 

[Vyvyan B.]

In all fairness, they got some really bad advice in this thread. Including someone telling them to stick parts in oven to rejuvenate them. It seems that there's a thread like this here every few days, encouraging people to destroy their shit.

[_The Doctor__]

   Following the timeline and being provided no Main Board pictures, most of the advice was not all that bad. When a picture (thank you for the photo) of the Main Board had been provided the problem was identified on sight, within minutes of it's being posted.

     Baking a pokey chip if it was truly dead has worked and is hardly a bad thing or terrible advice, and baking a good one hasn't damaged any in the past. When the choice is a last ditch effort, something vs nothing it couldn't hurt and subsequent post even said as much.

 

    A person can miss the same thing repeatedly and a fresh set of eyes might see it right away. The upside down silk screen did the fellow no favors. He looked at everything repeatedly. You and I looked at chip pin one indicator marks, most people look at the writing. On hack a day an experienced/veteran hardware hacker was putting Atari ST TOS/OS in a handheld portable word processing machine and made the same mistake when reading the schematic and looking at the chip, he was off 90 degrees on locations, outside eyes saw it instantly but had to wait it out until he figured it out some time later.

 

It would appear the SIO port needed to be replaced, the machine needed a clean and re seat, it's not clear when any chip was reversed, as it could have been during re-seat, or when it was replaced with a new one. So chips needed a look over and placed in the correct orientation.

 

Hopefully the OP has working drives now, and all Ataris involved are in good working order. Sometimes remote diagnosis does not go smoothly and isn't ideal. Looking back on such things afterwards and seeing the simple fix, it's easy to see. Just like watching a sports event.

 

Do I get to keep my balloon? Or do I have to give it back

Edited January 15, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[Vyvyan B.]

Sticking parts in the oven is last resort kind of shit. Like when you know with 100% certainty that there's nothing to lose. I've fixed an xbox 360 this way, so there is definitely some merit to this method. You get to keep your balloon for now.

 

[_The Doctor__]

[Vyvyan B.]

19 hours ago, mimo said:

And post pictures when asked.

Such a shame they spent all that money for such a simple fix

Yea, I feel bad that there was not something more wrong with it and debated not posting this at all.

[mutil8]

None of it seems a big deal to me. From the moment I unboxed it and realized that it wasnt fully funcitonal I would have sold it off for $75 or whatever. I just have no interest in working on hardware.

I guess I bought around $100 in parts including the tax and shipping. Thats really nothing - overall I would say this is a pretty inexpensive hobby compared to a lot of other options.

I did spend an additional $120 on a 1050 but that drive is fine and I consider it worth the $.

Main issue for me was the large amount of time I was spending - both in trying to figure out and fix the problem and waiting for parts to arrive. A LOT of time. Time I wanted to spend relearning 6502.

A side issue was the shipping cost to get rid of it. $70 to ship a computer that in its state was worth about that is a losing proposition.

 

Now as for the 800 itself I will be honest - I took a look at the picture and I still cant identify the problem. And I dont see how anyone without some type of electrical engineering background could.

I cant see any notch on the chip. It was stated that the ID info was printed on it upside down - like how the hell could that not throw almost anyone off except you electronics gurus?

 

Also really strange if both pokey chips are ok. With original pokey in I had replaced power board which resulted in blue screen. I moved the original pokey a little to reseat it - this didnt help. No way the original pokey was

oriented incorrectly. So if nothing has been changed and the 800 works with the original pokey as well that has me puzzled.

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, mutil8 said:

None of it seems a big deal to me. From the moment I unboxed it and realized that it wasnt fully funcitonal I would have sold it off for $75 or whatever. I just have no interest in working on hardware.

I used to always mess around with hardware. Doing mods. Effecting repairs. Making enhancements. Soldering and multi-layer repair done to certain professional standards. All that stuffage. Nowadays if it's more involved than patching up a connector I avoid it. Unless it's a priceless "uber ebay LQQK [R*A*R*E]" SteveJobs or JayMiner thing - then out comes the 'scope and logic analyzer and DMM and all that.

 

So most everything I do is emulator based. With the occasional Sunday drive of my OG hardware.

 

1 hour ago, mutil8 said:

Now as for the 800 itself I will be honest - I took a look at the picture and I still cant identify the problem. And I dont see how anyone without some type of electrical engineering background could.

I cant see any notch on the chip. It was stated that the ID info was printed on it upside down - like how the hell could that not throw almost anyone off except you electronics gurus?

In most of my beginner books, pre-electronics 101, they describe Pin 1 of IC's having a mark on their left side for Pin 1. Well designed boards (not cost cut) will have a square hole for that pin. And some PCB's will have "1" silk-screened on the board too. They warn that text orientation is irrelevant. Some parts like EPROMS print it sideways anyway. Oftentimes sockets are notched too. Bad comes to worse you can ID pins via datasheet and trace out +5V and Ground.

 

Those Heathkits and RadioShack kits were always great tutorials for learning parts identifications and orientations.

 

1 hour ago, mutil8 said:

Also really strange if both pokey chips are ok. With original pokey in I had replaced power board which resulted in blue screen. I moved the original pokey a little to reseat it - this didnt help. No way the original pokey was

oriented incorrectly. So if nothing has been changed and the 800 works with the original pokey as well that has me puzzled.

When cleaning sockets and pins I'll pull the chip and reseat it 1 or 2 times, then pull it again and use deoxit on all contacts. Sometimes using an eraser depending on how bad. Or even re-tin or re-plate if it's a rare chip. Sometimes even replacing the socket too. So just a little sliding and wiggling may not have been enough.

[Keatah]