Question about Player/Missile graphics and International Karate

[oky2000]

Now I am no expert but as I understand it you have 4 players at 8 pixels wide and up to screen height and you can combine 4 missile graphics to make a 5th player. So effectively that gives you 5x8 pixels per scanline if I am understanding this right. For a long time I thought players were 16 pixels wide but looking it up on info it seems this is not correct.

 

The fighters on International Karate are much bigger than 16 pixels wide, they look the same size as on the C64 port to me more or less. So how did the late, great Archer do International Karate on the Atari 800 via the PM hardware, or is it not just PMs to draw the fighters?

[adam242]

More than one player and regular playfield gfx for the fighters. Run the game in Altirra and hit ctrl-f8 to see the layers.

 

Archer was indeed a master at maximizing the A8's resources.

Edited December 26, 2022 by adam242

[Rybags]

Probably also worth checking out the IK+ conversion - the backdrop pics in both games are just as worthy as the softsprite techniques.

It's a mix of PF and PMs to achieve more colour - at the time the backgrounds in IK were leading-edge, very few programs bothered to attempt such methods to achive more colour, the most popular thing being the done to death cheap rainbow effect you get by incrementing a register per scanline.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Rybags

[oky2000]

Thanks for the info guys. He was indeed a very talented A8 game designer, playing IK you would think it was a pair of 16 pixel wide PMs as I always thought but even more impressive now I know that's not the case, so I guess they are expanded monochrome players giving 16 pixel width. I bet when doing Jimmy White's Snooker for ST/Amiga he was thinking about how the A8 would do it, it was his favourite machine AFAIK.

 

Used to play both his A8 games on my friend's 800 and 800XL back then. 

 

I did see a few videos of IK+ for A8 pop up. With 3 fighters it is very impressive for the A8 I thought, hence the question here.

[Heaven/TQA]

He even run out of C64 sprites on IK+ so he took the character based a8 IK as basis for the c64 Ik+
 

 

[+MrFish]

One of the things that makes the large softsprites in char mode more feasible here on the A8's is that the area where they are has a solid, single-color background. All the fancy backgrounds are up above them; but it works, in a semi-3D way. Notice the difference between this and "Way of the Exploding Fist", where you have sprites and complex background graphics overlapping -- at least partially (more so when jumping) -- which would be a bit more tricky to pull off on the A8's.

 

[oky2000]

That's really the genius of a good game designer technically, you take what you have and make it work and if you do it well it's like the best movie effects, you don't even realise that something extra is going on. If you look at the two versions of the game you would never know the differences in the hardware. I suppose it's like when I was trying to replicate "a sprite" in a game I wanted to put into my own game and it didn't occur to me that it was actually two different high-res sprites overlapped. It seems obvious now but people had to invent ways to make the games as they wanted them to be made and I think Archer had one of those minds, perhaps a lateral thinker.

 

In the PS3 era that was sometimes still the case, there is no way the Xbox 360 architecture could do Killzone 3 7 layer rendering process as an example. Today people write some high-level code and hit the "render for PS5" / "render for Switch" button. It's an artform that's been dead since the last console generation. I guess that's really why 8bit machines will always be my favourite, most innovation/least bloat between coders mind and CPU/chipsets

[+MrFish]

Notice the system requirements for the Atari version too. This is a 48K game; but a high-quality release, well into the lifespan of the machine. It's not crippled when using a 48K machine either (I see all seven backgrounds, in full color; and I hear all the sound effects and music).

 

 

[+MrFish]

Two things the A8 version didn't get. I suppose they wanted to add a screen for the new version (A8 was done first).

 

Did anyone ever hack it into the A8 version (if not, it should be done)? Hi-res, colored score-panel text... eh... no problem there...

 

Purple sky and water? Hmm... I'll pass on that one...  (although, we got some of it in the NTSC version, by default).

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

On 12/26/2022 at 8:20 AM, Heaven/TQA said:

He even run out of C64 sprites on IK+ so he took the character based a8 IK as basis for the c64 Ik+
 

 

Love this, the detail and genius he used to almost mo-cap in a crude form..Man was a true out of the box thinker. The physics for Pool etc are just amazingly good, playing pool was something I did on a club level, he nailed it.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Mclaneinc

[Steril707]

On 12/26/2022 at 8:13 AM, Rybags said:

Probably also worth checking out the IK+ conversion - the backdrop pics in both games are just as worthy as the softsprite techniques.

It's a mix of PF and PMs to achieve more colour - at the time the backgrounds in IK were leading-edge, very few programs bothered to attempt such methods to achive more colour, the most popular thing being the done to death cheap rainbow effect you get by incrementing a register per scanline.

Wow, didn't know about that one. Looks amazing. Just tried it out. Crazy they were able to pull off all three fighters on the A8.

 

Bit sad that it just stops after a few seconds, usually when hits connect. 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Steril707

[Heaven/TQA]

4 hours ago, MrFish said:

Two things the A8 version didn't get. I suppose they wanted to add a screen for the new version (A8 was done first).

 

Did anyone ever hack it into the A8 version (if not, it should be done)? Hi-res, colored score-panel text... eh... no problem there...

 

Purple sky and water? Hmm... I'll pass on that one...  (although, we got some of it in the NTSC version, by default).

 

 

Wasn’t there an IK update with all missing screens?

[oky2000]

On 12/26/2022 at 8:20 AM, Heaven/TQA said:

He even run out of C64 sprites on IK+ so he took the character based a8 IK as basis for the c64 Ik+
 

 

Was very interesting watching that, thanks for posting. He used Neochrome too

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, Heaven/TQA said:

Wasn’t there an IK update with all missing screens?

You're right, it's in the Enhanced IK. I thought someone had done it. Thanks.

 

By @pavros, the author of IK+ for the 8-bits.

 

    

 

[Heaven/TQA]

Need to download that version 😂

[+MrFish]

10 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said:

Need to download that version 😂

Get it! It has a lot of great additions -- including online help, various stereo/mono sound options (and improved sound engine), etc. (he posted a list of features and detailed description down a ways in the thread I linked to)

 

[Rybags]

Did we get all the backgrounds?

Wasn't it like Sydney, London, NYC, Rio, Egypt, Fuji, Parthenon?

 

Looks like a C64 update was done also with some nice new backgrounds back in 2017 https://csdb.dk/release/?id=160800

Edited December 27, 2022 by Rybags

[Steril707]

5 hours ago, Rybags said:

Did we get all the backgrounds?

Wasn't it like Sydney, London, NYC, Rio, Egypt, Fuji, Parthenon?

 

Looks like a C64 update was done also with some nice new backgrounds back in 2017 https://csdb.dk/release/?id=160800

Yes, that was amazing. Would be fun to do a A8 version bg gfx contest like they did back then for the C64 version.

[Steril707]

7 hours ago, Steril707 said:

Bit sad that it just stops after a few seconds, usually when hits connect. 

Found out, that this stop means that one player has won. And you can simply press start to get into the next round.

Nice port even without the "win"-sequence.

 

[+MrFish]

6 hours ago, Rybags said:

Did we get all the backgrounds?

Wasn't it like Sydney, London, NYC, Rio, Egypt, Fuji, Parthenon?

London was the only one we were missing, AFAIK.

  

6 hours ago, Rybags said:

Looks like a C64 update was done also with some nice new backgrounds back in 2017

First time I'd seen that before. Yeah, nice artwork; I particularly like the Asian locations.

 

(Seems to glitch when running in NTSC mode, though.)

 

                            

 

[Gunstar]

Ok, now after seeing the new C64 IK Ultimate screens, I'd like to take a shot at making those half-screen backgrounds for the A8! But I've no idea if the A8 version's backgrounds were made with a specific A8 graphic art program, or if they are all done with a proprietary graphic utility for the A8? Can anyone tell me? Of course I'd need a programmer to insert them into the IK or IK+ game, if it's a common file format from an Atari graphic art program. If I'm able to use a graphic art program that can use DLI's like Rambrandt or other graphic art program that allows the use of DLI's, I'll get on it! Obviously the A8 version did use DLI's for the backgrounds to create more than 4-5 colors on-screen...does the video posted above 'Creating International Karate & IK+' discuss this? Maybe a redundant question, since I'm about to check out that video!

 

I'd also create some unique backgrounds of my own for the A8 version as well...

 

Edit: Just watched the video above, and unfortunately he did say he had to create his own graphic tools/utilities for the backgrounds if I understood him correctly. Unless he was specifically talking about the animated sprites and not the backgrounds, but I don't think that is the case, I think I did understand that he had to do all the graphics from scratch, himself, and didn't use any available graphic art programs for the 800, unfortunately for me, as I can do graphic art on the A8, but only with available graphic art utility programs...

 

I think I still will do some background graphics using Rambrandt or some other graphic art utility that allows DLI's, just for the hell of it, but I guess they'd have to be reprogrammed pixel-by-pixel by a programmer to get them into IK/IK+ anyway...and chances are said programmer would just do the graphics himself or have a graphic art buddy of his do them and not use mine. Not that it will stop me from doing it just for the hell of it, for show-and-tell...

Edited December 28, 2022 by Gunstar

[Rybags]

My guess would be either a custom program for the task of doing it manually, or maybe even some sort of automated system that took a source image with the extra colour then used PM objects to serve as underlays for the extra colours.

Though I suspect the first, the use of objects (not that I've checked it out lately) does seem kind of orderly and planned.

 

I did a similar program about 10 years ago that does similar - it uses shortened Mode 4 characters to give 5 colours per 4x4 cell and PMGs to add more.  I think I might have used it to do my Christmas pic/music piece a long time back.

 

Theoretically we could do RC pictures though I suspect the 100% CPU load for that portion of the screen would cause a lot of game slowdown.

[oky2000]

 

This is the C64 update, not a fan of the new music but the rest is cool.

[+MrFish]

I stripped out the backgrounds from the C64 IK Ultimate yesterday. I was just thinking of processing them in RastaConverter, to see how they look on A8. I did a couple already, and they look good so far. I'll probably make a slide show for them.

 

[Gunstar]

7 hours ago, Rybags said:

My guess would be either a custom program for the task of doing it manually, or maybe even some sort of automated system that took a source image with the extra colour then used PM objects to serve as underlays for the extra colours.

Though I suspect the first, the use of objects (not that I've checked it out lately) does seem kind of orderly and planned.

 

I did a similar program about 10 years ago that does similar - it uses shortened Mode 4 characters to give 5 colours per 4x4 cell and PMGs to add more.  I think I might have used it to do my Christmas pic/music piece a long time back.

 

Theoretically we could do RC pictures though I suspect the 100% CPU load for that portion of the screen would cause a lot of game slowdown.

He couldn't be using any PM objects for more color, as they are all used for the player sprites. It's just good use of DLI's only switching a couple of colors per scan line or per scan line region. I've done such art (unfortunately lost with lost disks years ago) with Rambrandt. I've been meaning to get back into A8 pixel art with DLI's, but due to a lack of inspiration, I've just been doing Rastaconverter conversions. This has been that inspiration I lacked, though it's obviously not just as simple as a half screen of an A8 graphic art program slapped in there apparently, though he could have done it that way if he knew about programs like Rambrandt and similar ilk back in '86. Rambrandt and similar ilk were out by then, but apparently he didn't know of them, so he apparently did his own art using DLI's via code, if I understood him in the video correctly. I will at least whip up one example, copying the graphic art from the C64 Ultimate version by eye. It won't, of course, be perfect copies, but I can come close using DLI's.

 

Though it's a bit more rough and primitive, Philip Price created an art utility with DLI's for Alternate Reality The City. And I may decide to do that instead, as I just recalled that Rambrandt and other DLI capable art programs only allow DLI change every two scan lines, and Philips crude art utility, I believe, allows DLI's changes every scan line which would help the end result look better. He released his art utility to the public domain many years ago and I have it, but haven't used it much because of it's crudeness.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Gunstar