Question about Player/Missile graphics and International Karate

[Gunstar]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:13 AM, Rybags said:

Probably also worth checking out the IK+ conversion - the backdrop pics in both games are just as worthy as the softsprite techniques.

It's a mix of PF and PMs to achieve more colour - at the time the backgrounds in IK were leading-edge, very few programs bothered to attempt such methods to achive more colour, the most popular thing being the done to death cheap rainbow effect you get by incrementing a register per scanline.

Sorry, I don't know or recall what PF's are, but didn't he use all PM's for the player sprites? Or did I totally misunderstand and the players are all done with character graphic soft sprites? In any case, PF's (whatever those are) and PM's are beyond my artistic capabilities at the moment as I'm not a programmer. Though I started teaching myself a couple of years ago, life has kept me from learning programing since, due to a lack of time. And also my A8's being down on numerous occasions for repairs and upgrades...I'm a hardware guy right now, not software...

Edited December 28, 2022 by Gunstar

[Beeblebrox]

PF, I believe is playerfield aka background graphics. 

 

I'll let someone else elaborate.

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Sorry, I don't know or recall what PF's are, but didn't he use all PM's for the player sprites? Or did I totally misunderstand and the players are all done with character graphic soft sprites? In any case, PF's (whatever those are) and PM's are beyond my artistic capabilities at the moment as I'm not a programmer. Though I started teaching myself a couple of years ago, life has kept me from learning programing since, due to a lack of time. And also my A8's being down on numerous occasions for repairs and upgrades...I'm a hardware guy right now, not software...

With a DLI, players can be "sliced" and reused since they are 255 scanlines tall.  Just because they may be used for the fighters at the bottom of the screen, does not preclude their use in different positions and colours at the top of the screen.

[+MrFish]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

With a DLI, players can be "sliced" and reused since they are 255 scanlines tall.  Just because they may be used for the fighters at the bottom of the screen, does not preclude their use in different positions and colours at the top of the screen.

You can also change their priorities and width attributes.

 

[pseudografx]

I made a couple of backgrounds for IK as well so if anyone is willing to try incorporating them in the game, I can send them over.

[+MrFish]

12 minutes ago, pseudografx said:

I made a couple of backgrounds for IK as well so if anyone is willing to try incorporating them in the game, I can send them over.

Originals? Can we see them?

 

[Rybags]

The irony of the Sydney pic is - there are actually 2 PF colours that seem to be black most of the time with the PMs providing the extra colour.

Entirely possible this pic and possibly others could have easily included more colour at no cost.

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, Rybags said:

The irony of the Sydney pic is - there are actually 2 PF colours that seem to be black most of the time with the PMs providing the extra colour.

Entirely possible this pic and possibly others could have easily included more colour at no cost.

None of the pictures are all that colorful, really. The important things are that they're all decently rendered, there are enough of them to keep things interesting, and that he cared enough to add any extra color at all beyond what the graphics mode itself offers. Too many other games can give you the impression that the 8-bits are only capable of 4 colors per screen... a little extra color can go a long way.

 

But, yeah, it might be interesting to see if the existing set of scenes could be improved (without too much trouble) by a noticeable factor. According to @pavros "The (London) picture requires 8 DLIs while each of 7 existing backgrounds required only 3. Perhaps that's why it was not added to the original. Adding this picture caused a need to modify several existing DLI handlers."

 

[Gunstar]

Thank you for all who responded for clearing the graphics up for me, I knew that PM's could be re-used since they are the height of the screen, but not how exactly, I figured that if the players moved across the bottom of the screen that this would cause any being used at the top to move with them resulting in color shifts at the top. Now I also know there are other tricks like VBI's to help with this, but since my understanding is rudimentary in it all I'm not quite sure how it works with Rastaconverter or in games like IK. But none the less, without an actual graphic art program that can allow the end-user artist to take advantage of these programming tricks, that I personally am still stuck with only the use of DLI's.

 

can do my best to recreate C64 screens and create new original background graphics with just the use of DLI's, for examples of what can be done this way through the graphic art programs that do allow use of DLI's, but if the actual backgrounds are using PM's for more color as well as DLI's (seems to me with both, it seems the backgrounds should or could be much more colorful than they are, as it looks to me that they don't yet even approach 16 colors in them, even though, with DLI's alone, more than 16 colors could be used, obviously only 4-5 per scan line or double-scan line like Rambrandt uses) then without PM's what I do won't be the best they could be either, and someone else who does know programming would have to "finish" them up to be inserted into the actual game, if that were even possible if I do use a graphic art program with it's file type. Obviously Rambrandt and other ilk do not save the images in the common Micro Illistrator format or whatever, and any program has to be made to allow the use of their formats to get these images into the program.

 

I'm going to go ahead, being inspired and do some "fake screens" looking as much like the backgrounds in IK/IK+, but it seems they will just be more show-and-tell than something that someone else could just insert into the game, easily anyway, without extensive reworking, I imagine. This won't stop me from doing one or a few just because I feel inspired and would like to show some of my actual artistic talents. I've been meaning to start a thread similar to Rastaconverter for legacy graphic art programs anyway, which is probably how I will approach this. The images can be considered PD, IF anyone would choose to use them and rework them for program insertion, if that is possible.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Gunstar

[Rybags]

G2F might be another option although isn't it entirely character mode, or was there recent updates that allow bitmap also?

[+MrFish]

5 hours ago, Rybags said:

G2F might be another option although isn't it entirely character mode, or was there recent updates that allow bitmap also?

It's always had bitmapped modes -- as long as I've been using it. Character modes are more commonly used, I guess.

 

[+MrFish]

7 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I knew that PM's could be re-used since they are the height of the screen, but not how exactly, I figured that if the players moved across the bottom of the screen that this would cause any being used at the top to move with them resulting in color shifts at the top. Now I also know there are other tricks like VBI's to help with this, but since my understanding is rudimentary in it all I'm not quite sure how it works with Rastaconverter or in games like IK.

A DLI can just be set at a particular scanline to position a PM at a specific horizontal location. You could theoretically position a given PM at any horizontal position on every scanline of the the display, if you wanted to.

  

7 hours ago, Gunstar said:

But none the less, without an actual graphic art program that can allow the end-user artist to take advantage of these programming tricks, that I personally am still stuck with only the use of DLI's.

Graph2Font is your graphic art program. It does have a learning curve, and the only documentation available is old. I basically learned it without documentation. There are plenty of examples (included with the program) to examine, though. The program is highly capable of producing some complex images, containing many DLI's and PM's used however you want.

 

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

A DLI can just be set at a particular scanline to position a PM at a specific horizontal location. You could theoretically position a given PM at any horizontal position on every scanline of the the display, if you wanted to.

  

Graph2Font is your graphic art program. It does have a learning curve, and the only documentation available is old. I basically learned it without documentation. There are plenty of examples (included with the program) to examine, though. The program is highly capable of producing some complex images, containing many DLI's and PM's used however you want.

 

I'm aware of Graph2Font, though I haven't used it as I don't care to do my A8 graphic art on a PC, I want to do it on the Atari, that's my personal entire point in doing A8 graphic art at all, is to create art for my Atari on my Atari as I like using my Atari to do the art even more than just having it the final destination of the art. Rastaconverter is the exception because I'm not creating, I'm converting. However, if I can use an art program on the Atari, and then load the file into G2F for some "final touches" I'll will do that. But doesn't G2F just spit out an .xex file like Rastaconverter? And if so, could that be used to install in the code of IK/IK+?!?

 

Thanks for the info on the DLI positioning. I knew that the PM's could have DLI's within them, as I've seen it done in games with the PM's having shading done with DLI's, but I was totally unaware that using DLI's on the PM's would also allow you to split them and place them in a specific horizontal location. I knew that Rastaconverter uses PM's for added color, but I though the ability to position them anywhere horizontally was part of the DLI's ability. I thought some other clever coding beyond just DLI manipulation was used to accomplish that! I did learn it wasn't using VBI's and that's why there is no flicker, but I thought there was some other coder's trick to it beyond just DLI coding.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Gunstar

[+CharlieChaplin]

18 hours ago, pseudografx said:

I made a couple of backgrounds for IK as well so if anyone is willing to try incorporating them in the game, I can send them over.

 

YES, please send them!

 

[Gunstar]

18 hours ago, pseudografx said:

I made a couple of backgrounds for IK as well so if anyone is willing to try incorporating them in the game, I can send them over.

Did you use G2F to do this?

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

I'm aware of Graph2Font, though I haven't used it as I don't care to do my A8 graphic art on a PC, I want to do it on the Atari, that's my personal entire point in doing A8 graphic art at all, is to create art for my Atari on my Atari as I like using my Atari to do the art even more than just having it the final destination of the art. Rastaconverter is the exception because I'm not creating, I'm converting. However, if I can use an art program on the Atari, and then load the file into G2F for some "final touches" I'll will do that. But doesn't G2F just spit out an .xex file like Rastaconverter? And if so, could that be used to install in the code of IK/IK+?!?

It's a noble task. I use to do all my artwork on the Atari (in Diamond Paint and/or MacroEdit), and then code up the DLI's needed. I find it hard to justify these days, when time is precious and I can be so much more productive with PC-based tools. Also, I think about this way: back in the day, Atari programmers used more powerful machines as tools for writing Atari 8-bit game software too. So, I'm just using tools; but my mind is focused on the target machine and attributes.

 

Graph2Font can produce a ton of different output files besides XEX, including assembly source code (and apparently Pascal, now), and data files for all the different attributes (font, PMG, character screen codes, etc.). It can also open and save Micropainter files (plus all the standard PC graphics file formats).

  

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

Thanks for the info on the DLI positioning. I knew that the PM's could have DLI's within them, as I've seen it done in games with the PM's having shading done with DLI's, but I was totally unaware that using DLI's on the PM's would also allow you to split them and place them in a specific horizontal location.

Because you're working per scanline, once a scanline is drawn, you can direct PM graphics in the next scanline to do something different (as long as it fits in the time constraints).

 

[pseudografx]

2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Did you use G2F to do this?

No, I did them in a Windows graphics editor and then tried to use RC on them with reasonable success.

[Gunstar]

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

It's a noble task. I use to do all my artwork on the Atari (in Diamond Paint and/or MacroEdit), and then code up the DLI's needed. I find it hard to justify these days, when time is precious and I can be so much more productive with PC-based tools. Also, I think about this way: back in the day, Atari programmers used more powerful machines as tools for writing Atari 8-bit game software too. So, I'm just using tools; but my mind is focused on the target machine and attributes.

 

Graph2Font can produce a ton of different output files besides XEX, including assembly source code (and apparently Pascal, now), and data files for all the different attributes (font, PMG, character screen codes, etc.). It can also open and save Micropainter files (plus all the standard PC graphics file formats).

  

Because you're working per scanline, once a scanline is drawn, you can direct PM graphics in the next scanline to do something different (as long as it fits in the time constraints).

 

I used to use Diamond Paint too, to use a mouse, and then load the file into Rambrandt for the DLI finishing touches and use the solid object module as well sometimes. But I didn't have an Atari Touch tablet at the time (I know you can use it with D paint too) and now I do, and prefer it to a mouse, but since Rambrandt uses the touch tablet. But I recently got Diamond 3.0 on cart again, so we'll see/ I also like using Atari Artist with the tablet too. I do prefer the icon menus of Diamond Paint and Atari Artist better than Rambrandts interface at the bottom of the screen, but Rambrandt has so many features beyond the other two, it'll get used from time to time even if I start with the other two.

 

I'm glad to here G2F has different output options, so I probably will use it in some cases (like with IK/IK+) for some final touches, but I'm still going to always start out on my Atari. But I have no need to justify using G2F on the PC because others in the past (I know too, like Lucasfilm Games for example) used bigger, better computers to code for the Atari; whether learning to program (eventually programming) or doing art or gaming, I prefer the real thing because I an a vintage hardware guy at heart and enjoy fixing, upgrading and using the Atari's far more than any other way, I love using my Atari and it, itself gives me half the inspiration and drive to do these things. Anything I can do on my Atari and get to use it productively is what I am all about.

 

I use the Synapse Syn-series apps to run my small business even, and it has the advantage of being un-hackable, except for in person (and get by the locked bar across my portable construction site office trailer door and bars on the windows and my very nasty blood hound. And the axles are removed and it is attached to a foundation, so no pulling away with it either). I doubt any burglar would happen to know how to use my Atari and access my private files? Chances are about the same as getting struck by lightning I figure. and no need for security features beyond a lock on my office door and my blood hound guard dog. And any thief that might break in could steal my Atari, but they would probably have no idea how to access any of my private files and books on this antique computer! The trouble it would take to break in and survive is also a strong deterrent. My vicious dogs growls and barks coming from within are probably enough. Shades keep prying eyes from seeing in too, so for all they know, it could be an empty trailer.

 

Also there's the fact that I live in the middle of nowhere 10 miles from the nearest one-horse town at the end of a dead end road with security lights and cameras all over the place and I own guns too (it takes the county police and other emergency vehicles at least half an hour to arrive if needed, which is the reason for the guns) I'm not a crazy red-neck, but there are some around, which is how I know the time it takes as I've had to call in domestic disturbances before, and also an ambulance for my elderly mother more than once. One of the red-necks got in a fight with another red-neck neighbor the week before Christmas and was shot and still in the hospital recovering! They are all at least a half mile away from me but yelling red-neck voices and gun shots carry out here! But I've lived on my ranch for 7 years now, and had no personal issues or encounters with the red-necks.

 

Sorry for the tangent, but I am very security conscious in every way in this mad, mad world we live in. And my Atari's are a part of that. I only use this PC I'm on now for internet and Rastaconverter, and nothing else, nothing important is on it.

 

Nobody, but nobody will ever convince me otherwise (to use anything but my Atari for these things, that is).

Edited December 30, 2022 by Gunstar

[+MrFish]

I usually code short programs directly on the Atari; and I still use MacroEdit for creating character graphics. TBH, I'd prefer to use Atari applications more, but most of what I need (in spite of being possible on the Ataris) just doesn't exist, or doesn't exist in a form that I find worthwhile to use. The Last Word is a good, more-recent word processor; I've used it for coding, and it's quite good for that; but we could still use a more modern-type of word processor, and also a good coding editor. Similarly, there are various database-types of applications that would be useful. I have in mind to create a good To Do list manager on the Atari. TBH, I haven't even found one on the PC that meets my needs. I have a lot of ideas about various Atari applications and tools I'd like to make and use in the future; but for now, that's just in the future. I agree with you, though, that one good use for the Ataris is data security; and it's a concern/goal of mine as well. I'm also interested in using my Atari for alternate forms of communication, such as ham radio data.

 

I would still always use a PC for the power to handle heavier processes, larger screens, etc. There's no denying their usefulness for music, video, images and such. I don't find them better than the Atari for these things, just different. The Atari formats for these are completely unique to the hardware, and greatly interesting in their own right. My attraction to the Ataris is not purely nostalgic. I was highly aware and appreciative of the differences back when computers already existed (mid 1980's Sun and HP graphics workstations) that were doing things that we think of as more modern; I used these from time to time at Michigan State University. I never thought of the more powerful machines as better; in fact I immediately found much of what the power was used for as boring/uninteresting; and I still do till this day. 

 

As far as security goes, having a separate PC just for the internet is one thing that can be done; but I can still have an additional PC for other uses, that's not hooked up to the internet. Multiple PC's for different uses can be set up with a single keyboard, monitor, and mouse. I've been doing this for years (for using PC's, Macs, and additional PC's together). In fact, with a properly capable Atari (like the 1088XEL), it can also be hooked up to the same keyboard, monitor, and mouse -- which is something I'd also like to do eventually.

 

[pseudografx]

Sorry, as the end of the year was a bit busy, it took me a while to finally reply. Here are the backgrounds I made. Not sure if all of them would convert well in RC, but I tried some and they were quite fine. I can do a bit more retouching / color reduction if necessary.

Edited January 2, 2023 by pseudografx

[+CharlieChaplin]

Ooooh, the capitol? You should add security guards for political reasons... just in case...

 

In the other surroundings I have seen James Bond (Roger Moore), but I don't see him there...?!? 

(India: James Bond Octopussy, afair; Frisco: James Bond View to a kill, Paris: James Bond View to a kill)

 

Other than that, great background pictures!

 

[_The Doctor__]

Yeah you never know when unarmed ladies need to be gunned down for doing less than what some of the leaders admit they've done themselves before being elected. Best to leave guards etc out. The screens look beautiful.

Edited January 2, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, pseudografx said:

Sorry, as the end of the year was a bit busy, it took me a while to finally reply. Here are the backgrounds I made. Not sure if all of them would convert well in RC, but I tried some and they were quite fine. I can do a bit more retouching / color reduction if necessary.

These look great.

 

The main thing about your images is that they're designed with the A8 hardware in mind -- which is a better approach for such things than trying to convert C64 images (as nice as they might be).

 

I don't see these as being any problem converting in Rastaconverter; but what would be a good test would be to attempt some Graph2Font versions.

 

[adam242]

Those backgrounds are gorgeous! Would love to see them integrated into the game.

[Steril707]

Would be really cool if we had our own backgrounds in the A8 version instead of just copying the C64 ones... : )