130XE failing to read some Atari cartridges

[Mark2008]

Last year I significantly paired down my collection, and my  main machine is an Atari 130XE, w/VBXE & Rapidus.

 

It was installed professionally and worked great, but then one day I decided to put it on a new desk.

 

I plugged up everything, including a device that should never have been powered, that device burned out my Rapidus.

 

I replaced the Rapidus - everything was working again, as far as I knew....but yesterday, I discovered my 130Xe doesnt' really work with most cartridges any longer.

 

Of course - I've done something, but anyway....not going to panic.  

 

Basically the reason I didn't discovered this right away, is because the machine still works perfectly with my side 2, and I rarely plug in cartridges.

 

But it will play cartridges like Centipede, Pac-Man, Miner 2049'er.  Minder 2049er is a 16k cart, so I don't know of it failing on any certain cart type.

 

However, I can say this, Donkey Kong Junior, I have 2 carts - they both work, both tested on another Atari - they fail in exactly the same way on this 130Xe - sort of loading but putting garbage on the screen.

 

And DK Jr, works fine if loaded as a xex.

 

I tried blowing out the cartridge port, using deoxit, but like I said, the machine works with many carts.  any ideas?

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

Maybe the CCTL line is bad?  I'd check the MMU and the 74LS138 chip first.

[Peri Noid]

Go to the Rapidus menu and make sure that the option disabling cartridges is off. I guess, it's not the point but worth checking.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Peri Noid

[Ray Gillman]

Just looked at Rapidus for the first time.  $200 sounds pricey.  "Heck, we cannot even guarantee it will be stable if WE install it alongside an Ultimate 1M"  Only three wires and we should expect it may not work because we installed it ourselves?  Heck you had me at rapids accelerator!  The name just makes me go weak in the knees hehehe

[Mark2008]

@Peri Noid I checked it, Cartridge ROMs are enabled.  

 

@reifsnyderb  thanks...I was hoping someone would suggest hitting the machine on the side a couple times but OK, I will try swapping out the ls138 sometime.

 

It seems to me that in the past I was able to remove a VBXE, and today, I tried removing the VBXE and it doesn't even boot, I put the VBXE back in, and it works except for still having the cart issue.

 

elementary question, but does the memory controller swap out access from RAM to the cartridge area?    In other words, the cart doesn't load itself into RAM, the CPU directly accesses cart rom at those addresses?

 

 

[Mark2008]

oh goodness, my humor doesn't always translate - I meant to say that given that some of these chips are soldered, I"m not really going to be fixing them any time soon.  If only it was as easy as shaking the machine, but alas....

 

now that I think about it, the 2600 didn't even have but 128 bytes of ram and 4k carts. So the CPU was reading the ROM, not from some kind of shadow ram schem.  And another thing, the rapidus menu makes it clear that cart support enabled means that area is not shadowed.  And so on and so forth, I clearly need to have the mobo repaired now. 

 

 

 

I'm thinking I don't need to even use carts, I have all the cart games on my side 2.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, i do need those carts to work, tho

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Mark2008

[Peri Noid]

9 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

@Peri Noid

 

@reifsnyderb

It seems to me that in the past I was able to remove a VBXE, and today, I tried removing the VBXE and it doesn't even boot, I put the VBXE back in, and it works except for still having the cart issue.

 

elementary question, but does the memory controller swap out access from RAM to the cartridge area?    In other words, the cart doesn't load itself into RAM, the CPU directly accesses cart rom at those addresses?

 

 

Instalation of VBXE actually physically disables the on-board video clock so it's pretty reasonable why after removing it the computer doesn't boot any more - you'd need to undo all the changes. 

Carts don't load into memory, they are directly accessible by the CPU. The problem may be the timing of signals or their electrical level - adding a new device influences them (capacity changes hence latencies and levels also get changed) and it may lead to instabilities and other problems. 

 

One of the proposed changes is replacing an 74LS08 chip (located between PIA and POKEY chips) with a 74F08, which usually fixes a problem with the clock signal, affecting cartridge communication in expanded systems. 

[Rybags]

I'd agree with the timing theory - either that and/or board thickness of carts which can sometimes be an issue.

 

CCTL shouldn't matter with DK Jr or for that matter any of the old 16K carts.  But modern day upgrades like SIDE2 and the Atarimax flashcarts do need CCTL and wouldn't function without it.

[Beeblebrox]

@Mark2008  Yup the VBXE install in a PAL machine for example - removes a crystal and some other passive components since the VBXE provides the system clock as Peri says. So pulling the VBXE and popping in the ANTIC will see a dead machine as no system clock, etc is present.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[gilsaluki]

I had a 600XL (upgraded to 64K) that would not load some XEGS carts, Battlezone for example. Fixed.  74F08 I ordered.  Took out the 74LS08 (U7), installed the 74F08 (U7).  Not sure if I am talking Apples & Oranges here.  But changing out that chip fixed that unit, now loads all carts.

[ACML]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:54 PM, Mark2008 said:

Last year I significantly paired down my collection, and my  main machine is an Atari 130XE, w/VBXE & Rapidus.

 

It was installed professionally and worked great, but then one day I decided to put it on a new desk.

 

I plugged up everything, including a device that should never have been powered, that device burned out my Rapidus.

 

I replaced the Rapidus - everything was working again, as far as I knew....but yesterday, I discovered my 130Xe doesnt' really work with most cartridges any longer.

 

Of course - I've done something, but anyway....not going to panic.  

 

Basically the reason I didn't discovered this right away, is because the machine still works perfectly with my side 2, and I rarely plug in cartridges.

 

But it will play cartridges like Centipede, Pac-Man, Miner 2049'er.  Minder 2049er is a 16k cart, so I don't know of it failing on any certain cart type.

 

However, I can say this, Donkey Kong Junior, I have 2 carts - they both work, both tested on another Atari - they fail in exactly the same way on this 130Xe - sort of loading but putting garbage on the screen.

 

And DK Jr, works fine if loaded as a xex.

 

I tried blowing out the cartridge port, using deoxit, but like I said, the machine works with many carts.  any ideas?

 

 

I had the exact same behavior on one of my 1200XLs.  Turned out to be the 6502C (SALLY).  I swapped it out and no more cartridge pickiness.  It makes sense since the CPU controls the boot process.  If you have a spare SALLY (C014806), try the swap and see if also cures your issue.

 

[Mark2008]

3 hours ago, ACML said:

I had the exact same behavior on one of my 1200XLs.  Turned out to be the 6502C (SALLY).  I swapped it out and no more cartridge pickiness.  It makes sense since the CPU controls the boot process.  If you have a spare SALLY (C014806), try the swap and see if also cures your issue.

 

I haven't had time for the Atari hobby in 6 weeks, so I don't remember what I discussed previously.

 

As it happens, I have two rapidus, each with its own 6502 and W65C816 (software selectable) so I've tried 4 cpus, all of which fail to boot the same set of cartridges.

 

 when I remove the rapidus and plug in the 6502C directly into the socket, the cartridges work fine!

 

So it is pinpointed to be some kind of rapidus issue, except, also these carts, like Wizard of Wor, they used to work, even with the rapidus plugged in.   Something has gone wrong, but it's specifically a misbehaving rapidus install, but there is no known way to fix this, unfortunately.  It's beyond my skills, but there isn't even a source of documentation or someone you can pay to fix this.  

 

I have changed my mindset to not use cartridges with this system.   

 

Once I gave up on the dream of it also working with carts, this particular system is a beauty.  I have it setup with a 21" samsung 4:3 monitor, and a GBSC scaler. No discoloration and its as sharp as an emulator as far as the look.

That plus a side 2 card and syscheck for 512k extended ram, xf551 disk drives + sio2d + fujinet...not to mention the software stack of sdx/pl65/kedit.  Love it, just wish I had any time to use it.

 

This always happens, the hobby has ground to a complete halt.....pity, and really I need to get back to work now, ugh...later!

 

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, Mark2008 said:

I have it setup with a 21" samsung 4:3 monitor, and a GBSC scaler. No discoloration and its as sharp as an emulator as far as the look.

Which exact monitor?

[Mark2008]

6 hours ago, Keatah said:

Which exact monitor?

Samsung SyncMaster 213T

 

Incidentally it can sync down to 15khz without adapter, but it doesn't look good that way.  The GBS-Control is highly recommended.  I bought a GBS-C AIO from an american maker, which looked beautiful, but had a problem with the solder joints for the power/on/off switch, just wouldn't reliably turn on.  Ended up buying a chinese GBS-C for $61 - that one worked.   Here I must stress, using the monitors own 15khz gets jailbars. GBS-8220 looks better but also jailbars.   GBS-C - astonishing! no jailbar.

 

 

 

 

 

[drac030]

I guess it may be this:

 

 

The solution is in post 7.

[Mark2008]

10 hours ago, drac030 said:

I guess it may be this:

 

 

The solution is in post 7.

Oh thanks - I'm glad to have anohter thing to try.

 

Honestly I had no idea how to proceed.   I will try it this weekend.

 

By the way, this fits in exactly with what happened.

 

I try to remember all the crazy things I've done, but its a lot.

 

I fried the original Rapidus because of an errant part that I bought off the internet - no need to go over that, but it was fried.

 

THis is a replacement rapidus.  Obviously it may have a different core, perhaps the original installer knew about this update, but I didn't.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Mark2008

[Mark2008]

Well I couldn't wait till the weekend.

 

That was it.  It reads 16k carts now.

 

Oh goodness, pity that the cards aren't coming out of the factory with this update, that would've saved me some time.

 

An

 

anyhow - thanks @drac030  I am so glad to have carts working again

 

This inspired me to photograph the setup...it's not a great photo, but, in real life this is absolutely gorgeous screen and the keyboard is genuine cherry mx switches.

 

It's a majestouch, which means even though it is a brand new keyboard, it also happens to have ps/2 compatibility.

 

That allows me to use the custom keycaps.   Perfectly working keyboard too.

 

My personal "ultimate" atari is finally complete.