800xl vs 65xe systems

[iscariot]

Hi everybody.  As from my posts, I got myself a nice but dirty 800xl that, with the help of some of you, I was able to clean up really well.  Today at the local thrift store the put out a 65xe with the box, PSU, and manual.  I couldn't resist and snapped it up.  I had a chance to test it an hour ago and it looks like it's working.  I'm glad to have another system but I'm now wondering if I should keep the 800xl as my go-to for playing on, or if I should put the 65xe n it's place.  It's in good shape.  I have an AVG cartridge I use for playing games, and I noticed that the 65xe lacks the big edge connector that the 800xl had.  I've also not been able to get into the memory test.  Any suggestions?  Should I use the 65xe?

[Zolaerla]

As far as I know, from the software side anyways, the 800XL and 65XE are practically identical, except one looks cooler than the other. I have a stock 130XE already, but I've actually been debating picking up an 800XL to mod up (add a U1MB and maybe one of the display output mods like UAV), but if you're not interested in doing upgrades, I'm not certain why you'd keep both other than for keeping a collection?

[iscariot]

I just grabbed it on a whim.  I had to do the video mod on the 800xl so I could use svideo.  Do I have to do that here?  Also, why doesn't it have that big edge connector?

[darwinmac]

25 minutes ago, iscariot said:

I have an AVG cartridge I use for playing games, and I noticed that the 65xe lacks the big edge connector that the 800xl had.  I've also not been able to get into the memory test.  Any suggestions?  Should I use the 65xe?

Having just gotten an 800XL, the bigger edge connector is the PBI interface. Since you have the AVG Cart (lucky guy!), you can use it with its PBI cable as an external memory expansion. Since both systems only have 64K by default, the PBI connector would allow you to expand the memory without soldering anything inside. 
 

If you got a North American 65XE, it will not have the small ECI connector near the cartridge port, that means none of the external memory options (like AVG) will work for you on the 65XE.

 

The 65XE was created near the end of the 8-bit run and Atari was looking to make a cheaper version that could sell especially in Eastern (Central) Europe. The European models had the ECI connector which appears to be as good as the earlier PBI connector. I will defer to more knowledgeable people here if that is incorrect. I am assuming Atari was saving space on the motherboard by removing the PBI connector. It could have also been cheaper to remove it. Those are just guesses on my part. They could be completely wrong. 

 

Bob C

Edited January 13, 2023 by darwinmac
More info

[Beeblebrox]

Personally I'd keep both but if I had to choose it would be the 800XL (especially if the keyboard was one of the nicer ones (Awc or Alps made) and feels good to type on) .

 

Also if it is Hong along made, (check the underside label), it will be fully socketed. (You may be lucky and some of the chips may be socketed even if it isn't HK made tbh). 

 

Main reasons choosing an 800XL over an XE IMHO:

 

-Top loading cart way more accessible, (esp when using SIDE3, SIDE2 or AVG cart's and others with removable media cards). Plus I never like the way a cart feels wobbly when plugged into the XE cart slot and it takes up more of a footprint. You need more space to unplug it too behind the XE on your desk. 

- If socketed better for upgrading.  (XE machine were never socketed and socketing it yourself is generally trickier as due to the build quality of the pcb you are more likely to lift traces and vias and damage the board. Lots of experience between the two pcbs of XL and XE has taught me this). 

- related to above the build quality better than XE, (pcb, solder, vias, etc more robust on the XL in my experience and Atari reduced build quality in the later XE lines I've read). 

- IMHO all the PAL XEs I've owned (quite a few) have generally inferior display output quality than the 600/800XL. Relates to the placement of the pcb components, inferior grounding and again build quality - so I've read. 

-PBI connector as mentioned above

 

Incidentally if you want to use S-video on a stock 800XL (so not an XLF) you can do a quick tweak and hook up chroma to enable it and then have colour S-video output. (Edit: since re-read your initial post and realised you have already done this so cool).

There are some other small tweaks that can improve video quality as well on the 800XL.

 

I have 65XE/130XE and 800XE, (basically the same to look at), as well as 800XLs and 600XLs, a 1200XL and a tank of a 800. I love em all but the 600XL and 800XLs are great for many reasons. The 800XL has a good amount of space inside for upgrades and can accept modern plug in Ram upgrades as well (as mentioned via PBI). 

 

Plus of course the retro look of the XL is always nice. 

 

Anyway, I'd keep em both.

****

Edit : you mention you can't get into the memory test on the XE. Do you mean you can't get into self test in the first place? (Power on the XE whislt holding down the option key or type BYE at the ready prompt once it is powered on to get in) 

 

Or do you mean you can actually get into the self test but can't navigate it to select the memory test because the select key doesnt work? 

 

The XEs will work with S-video out of the box as they have the Freddie chip. It is only the 800XLs (Excluding the XLF which is essentially an 800XL with a Freddie chip), which didn't have chroma colour hooked up at the factory. (Again I've just read that you already hooked this up to give you colour output when using S-video. ) 

 

I have a feeling I've signposted this to you before but there is a tweak you can do when using S-video on a modern lcd monitor on your 800XL which gets rid of the interference coming from the composite signal inside the machine. 

 

See herehttps://forums.atariage.com/topic/345055-scart-s-video-cable-setup-atari-65xe130xe800xe800xl/?do=findComment&comment=5172850

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[iscariot]

5 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Personally I'd keep both but if I had to choose it would be the 800XL (especially if the keyboard was one of the nicer ones (Awc or Alps made) and feels good to type on) .

 

Also if it is Hong along made, (check the underside label), it will be fully socketed. (You may be lucky and some of the chips may be socketed even if it isn't HK made tbh). 

 

Main reasons choosing an 800XL over an XE IMHO:

 

-Top loading cart way more accessible, (esp when using SIDE3, SIDE2 or AVG cart's and others with removable media cards). Plus I never like the way a cart feels wobbly when plugged into the XE cart slot and it takes up more of a footprint. You need more space to unplug it too behind the XE on your desk. 

- If socketed better for upgrading.  (XE machine were never socketed and socketing it yourself is generally trickier as due to the build quality of the pcb you are more likely to lift traces and vias and damage the board. Lots of experience between the two pcbs of XL and XE has taught me this). 

- related to above the build quality better than XE, (pcb, solder, vias, etc more robust on the XL in my experience and Atari reduced build quality in the later XE lines I've read). 

- IMHO all the PAL XEs I've owned (quite a few) have generally inferior display output quality than the 600/800XL. Relates to the placement of the pcb components, inferior grounding and again build quality - so I've read. 

-PBI connector as mentioned above

 

Incidentally if you want to use S-video on a stock 800XL (so not an XLF) you can do a quick tweak and hook up chroma to enable it and then have colour S-video output. (Edit: since re-read your initial post and realised you have already done this so cool).

There are some other small tweaks that can improve video quality as well on the 800XL.

 

I have 65XE/130XE and 800XE, (basically the same to look at), as well as 800XLs and 600XLs, a 1200XL and a tank of a 800. I love em all but the 600XL and 800XLs are great for many reasons. The 800XL has a good amount of space inside for upgrades and can accept modern plug in Ram upgrades as well (as mentioned via PBI). 

 

Plus of course the retro look of the XL is always nice. 

 

Anyway, I'd keep em both.

****

Edit : you mention you can't get into the memory test on the XE. Do you mean you can't get into self test in the first place? (Power on the XE whislt holding down the option key or type BYE at the ready prompt once it is powered on to get in) 

 

Or do you mean you can actually get into the self test but can't navigate it to select the memory test because the select key doesnt work? 

 

The XEs will work with S-video out of the box as they have the Freddie chip. It is only the 800XLs (Excluding the XLF which is essentially an 800XL with a Freddie chip), which didn't have chroma colour hooked up at the factory. (Again I've just read that you already hooked this up to give you colour output when using S-video. ) 

 

I have a feeling I've signposted this to you before but there is a tweak you can do when using S-video on a modern lcd monitor on your 800XL which gets rid of the interference coming from the composite signal inside the machine. 

 

See herehttps://forums.atariage.com/topic/345055-scart-s-video-cable-setup-atari-65xe130xe800xe800xl/?do=findComment&comment=5172850

 

 

 

 

Cool.   Thanks for the feedback.  I just grabbed it b/c I didn't want it going some place that wouldn't really appreciate it.  That it runs is just gravy.  I didn't realize it didn't have the expansion--I thought that it was built in for some reason.  I'm not going to use it, I might see if someone here wants to give it a good home  because I am rather happy with my 800xl.  I've already done the video mod, as well as putting in a UAV board and the video looks fantastic.  Also I like the look of the 65 but I didn't even think about the footprint.  I have a sort of bookcase thing I use to store consoles and the depth isn't an issue for me so much as the height. and that is what I was looking at but it seems that the benefits of the 65(height, look) don't make it better than the 800 so the 800 will stay.  It'd be cool if someone made a version of the AVG that had the sd port on the side or something(like the way the memory module plugged into the famicom for the FDD) but that's not a big deal for me.  Maybe that would be a good project for me.

[zzip]

Only reason the 65XE exists is when Jack Tramiel bought Atari they refreshed the 8-bit line with styling to match the ST and also cheapened the build quality.   It doesn't differ a whole lot from the 800XL,   

 

One other difference that I didn't see mentioned above is  the 65XE should have Revision C Basic which fixes bugs.   XL's had Revision B which has a nasty tendency to hang while your are entering code.  If you don't program in Atari BASIC, this won't matter

 

Because they are so similar it comes down to personal preference.

[_The Doctor__]

Yup the 65 XE is missing the eci port and that's a drag. I like the 800XL over the 65XE.

[reifsnyderb]

Personally, I'd keep them both.  But, if I had to keep only 1 it would be the 800XL.  

 

Here's what the 800XL has that the 65XE does not have:

1.  Top loading cartridge port.  It's much easier to insert the cartridges.

2.  Better keyboard.

3.  Parallel Bus Interface port.  (The long edge connector in the back.)

4.  Reasonable chance of having a socketed system board.

5.  Better quality system board.

 

The 800XL has a couple disadvantages:

1.  No chroma on the monitor port.  It is easy to add, though, and looks like you've got the problem solved.

2.  BASIC Revision B.  If you are using BASIC, you can either burn a Revision C BASIC chip or use a cartridge.

 

 

[iscariot]

On 1/13/2023 at 4:05 PM, reifsnyderb said:

Personally, I'd keep them both.  But, if I had to keep only 1 it would be the 800XL.  

 

Here's what the 800XL has that the 65XE does not have:

1.  Top loading cartridge port.  It's much easier to insert the cartridges.

2.  Better keyboard.

3.  Parallel Bus Interface port.  (The long edge connector in the back.)

4.  Reasonable chance of having a socketed system board.

5.  Better quality system board.

 

The 800XL has a couple disadvantages:

1.  No chroma on the monitor port.  It is easy to add, though, and looks like you've got the problem solved.

2.  BASIC Revision B.  If you are using BASIC, you can either burn a Revision C BASIC chip or use a cartridge.

 

 

The chroma mod was easy to do.  I did it when I did the UAV mod from TBA.  What does the PBI do for me?

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, iscariot said:

The chroma mod was easy to do.  I did it when I did the UAV mod from TBA.  What does the PBI do for me?

The PBI can be used for memory upgrades, diagnostics, other peripherals, Atari 1090, etc.  There is a partial list at the bottom of this page:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Bus_Interface

 

I usually run my 600XL with a 1090 board and with a 320k board installed.  

[mimo]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:05 PM, reifsnyderb said:

.  BASIC Revision B.  If you are using BASIC, you can either burn a Revision C BASIC chip or use a cartridge.

I've got an 800xl with factory fitted rev C basic 

[+MrFish]

23 minutes ago, mimo said:

I've got an 800xl with factory fitted rev C basic 

I've gotten several that came with rev C (may still have one).

 

[reifsnyderb]

Maybe I should have said the 800XL might or might not have Atari BASIC R. C?  All of the 800XL's I have seen, thus far, have Revision B.

[mimo]

18 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

Maybe I should have said the 800XL might or might not have Atari BASIC R. C?  All of the 800XL's I have seen, thus far, have Revision B.

I just thought I would mention it, I had only seen rev B before, not that I have really looked that deeply but I was a bit surprised.
This is a board that I repaired for a friend (bad Mexican Rockwell CPU, MT ram all working!!) I'm guessing it was produced late in production, but It's not a FREDDY XL, I thought they were the last ones produced?

[iscariot]

Well I think I'm going to list it for sale here.  I don't really need it, and I am planning on listing it along with some other stuff I have.