5200 and the arcade experience

[ledzep]

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

At the end of the day and through this whole discussion, the 5200 controllers are a really good controller and work well with Super Breakout. Modern technology like the gold dots and new flex circuits have helped solve the reliability issues of the past.  

 

Can't argue with that.  It is odd that some outside company had to come up with a way to get the joysticks into a reliable state, years later (I remember my friend returning joysticks to the store he got them from and getting replacements).  I can only imagine that there were too many innovations or changes at once from simple as shit 2600 joysticks with solid circuit boards to the 5200 joystick and its flex circuit and carbon dots or whatever those are.  Nice effort, but they should have tried a little harder.  Gold dots (or something equally reliable) and microswitches for the trigger buttons, even without self-centering, and I think the 5200 would have enjoyed an entirely different reputation.  The Crash would have still happened, but maybe Atari would have supported the 5200 more if they weren't getting so many complaints?  I wish.

[christo930]

17 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

At the end of the day and through this whole discussion, the 5200 controllers are a really good controller and work well with Super Breakout. Modern technology like the gold dots and new flex circuits have helped solve the reliability issues of the past.  

 

The 5200 gave us the controller absolutely nobody was asking for.  What we wanted was a couple more buttons.  Absolutely nobody was making a stink that the joystick only had 8 directions. Nobody cared about the "phone dial" pads on the Coleocvision and Intellivision controllers..  Ridiculous people in the marketing department were the ONLY people advocating for this.  By 1982, the digital joystick was king of the arcade and king of the home systems and most of the computers (minus PC and Apple II).. 

 

Worse, they gave us an analog joystick nobody was asking for that couldn't even self-center.  How many pennies were saved by making it non-centering? They could have made up the difference by shaving some of the plastic off the body of the 5200 if those pennies were that important  Wico released a 5200 joystick that was both self centering and non-centering depending on the configuration you could chose.  It's not like this was hard.  Had they just made it self-centering, basically all of the criticism of the stick outside of reliability issues goes completely away. Had it been self centering, or even better, switchable between self-centering and free range like the Wico, it would have been great. Nobody ever complains about the Vectrex controller being analog. They have other complaints, but not that it is analog.  When using it in a digital stick game (like cleansweep), it doesn't feel any different than a digital joystick.

 

People absolutely did not buy intellivision consoles because the 16 way disc.  A lot of people who bought Intellivision bought it in spite of the disc,not because of it.  The talking point about having infinite direction/range vs the "only" 16 direction disc was a blurb nobody cared about.

 

Outside of the non-centering stick, it's actually not a bad controller (when it is working). It's not particularly uncomfortable. It has buttons on both sides and includes pause and reset right on the controller.  It's a nice design for the time.

 

[jerseystyle]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:03 PM, Cebus Capucinis said:

Maybe, just maybe THEN Cindy Margolis would pay attention to me, of which her fame would give my channel a much needed viewer boost because I'm afraid to say that unless it gets more viewers by July 10 it will be shutdown forever until I announce it's starting up again. Just as soon as my finances are sorted out enough for me to totally forget making this statement and instead spending another $300 I don't have on plastic toys.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 7/5/2023 at 8:56 PM, Stephen said:

Ports, ports, and more ports.  Just think how cool it would be if every game for the XEGS was on the 5200 right!

 

On 7/5/2023 at 9:03 PM, Cebus Capucinis said:

Maybe, just maybe THEN Cindy Margolis would pay attention to me, of which her fame would give my channel a much needed viewer boost because I'm afraid to say that unless it gets more viewers by July 10 it will be shutdown forever until I announce it's starting up again. Just as soon as my finances are sorted out enough for me to totally forget making this statement and instead spending another $300 I don't have on plastic toys.

 

Also, Len Enders says that AK47 got airplay on 102.7 KIIS-FM in Los Angeles, in which the song was heard by approximately 70,000,000 listeners.  But because Warner Music Group moved its headquarters from Burbank in the San Fernando Valley to NYC in 2019, nobody at the record company heard it and so I have been once again screwed over by the record industry and the radio industry!  MY ZIP CODE SHOULDN'T DETERMINE MY SUCCESS!!!

[LANC3L0T]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:23 AM, Flyindrew said:

Last Saturday I took a walk to Barcade in my neighborhood (its a bar with dozens of 70's, 80's, 90's arcade machines). I played Pac Man, Defender, Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, Galaxian, Centipede, Jungle Hunt, Joust and Pole Position.

 

The next day, Sunday, I played these exact same games on my 5200 at home. 

 

In some instances the 5200 port of the games were exact arcade clones or near perfect. 

 

What amazes me is how overlooked the 5200 was, at the time, of literally bringing an actual arcade experience home.

 

 

I totally agree about the 5200 having some of the best arcade ports.  I just recently tried the 5200 for the first time, and was stunned by how good the games look.  The Pokey chip enables the games to sound amazing too.  Although, it did make sense once a discovered the internals of the console are extremely close to the Atari computers of that era.

[BIGHMW]

The 5200, IS, truly a GAMING machine. The XEGS only tries to replicate that same sentiment. Hey it may 4 times the RAM but clearly it was a last-ditch effort to salvage sales of the 8-bit computer lineup (400/800/XL/XE) in which were slumping by the mid-1980s thanks to the IBM PC coming of age.

 

The 5200 was also unfortunately side-saddled with the BS notion that it was merely a reworked Atari 400 without the keyboard when in actuality when you play its OG lineup against that of the 5200 that Big Sexy's games clearly stood head and shoulders above a 400 computer's versions of those very same games. That's why I chose a 5200 in 1983 over a 400 as I wanted an gaming machine, not a computer.

[+MrFish]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:52 AM, BIGHMW said:

The 5200, IS, truly a GAMING machine. The XEGS only tries to replicate that same sentiment.

It's not trying to replicate anything. The Atari 8-bit computer gaming platform existed before the 5200. With the XEGS, they took the 8-bit computer guts, added a light gun, put a bunch of proven disk classics on cartridge, and added a batch of new games. Meanwhile, the 5200 had already faded into obscurity by the mid-eighties, and the 8-bit computers (XEGS included) marched on into the 90's.

 

The 8-bit computers are a proven gaming platform with a big library of great games to back it up. The 8-bit computers don't play second fiddle to any Atari system when it comes to gaming. 

 

 

[ledzep]

4 minutes ago, MrFish said:

It's not trying to replicate anything. The Atari 8-bit computer gaming platform existed before the 5200. With the XEGS, they took the 8-bit computer guts, added a light gun, put a bunch of proven disk classics on cartridge, and added a batch of new games. Meanwhile, the 5200 had already faded into obscurity by the mid-eighties, and the 8-bit computers (XEGS included) marched on into the 90's.

 

The 8-bit computers are a proven gaming platform with a big library of great games to back it up. The 8-bit computers don't play second fiddle to any Atari system when it comes to gaming. 

 

 

 

I'm very surprised, since the 8-bit computers supported paddles, that there wasn't a computer version of the 5200 analog joystick (self-centering, with 2 buttons) with the full keyboard replacing the 5200 keypad.  Then the superior 5200 ports could be ported back to the 8-bits with analog joystick and true trak-ball options.  A little redundant, sure, but in the long run the best for those games.

[6502wrangler]

The analog joystick wasn’t a feature, though. Along with cost, that joystick is part of the reason the 5200 failed. 

 

A self-centering analog joystick is a much harder peripheral to interface than the joystick that came with the 5200. I don’t have any specific information but I suspect Atari tried but couldn’t make the joystick self-centering. 

[+MrFish]

6 hours ago, ledzep said:

I'm very surprised, since the 8-bit computers supported paddles, that there wasn't a computer version of the 5200 analog joystick (self-centering, with 2 buttons) with the full keyboard replacing the 5200 keypad.  Then the superior 5200 ports could be ported back to the 8-bits with analog joystick and true trak-ball options.  A little redundant, sure, but in the long run the best for those games.

A nice idea, but you can basically count the superior 5200 versions on two hands; so, would it have been worth it? Then there are the reliability issues; unfortunately Best Electronics can't go back to the future and take care of those for Atari.

 

[ledzep]

7 hours ago, 6502wrangler said:

The analog joystick wasn’t a feature, though. Along with cost, that joystick is part of the reason the 5200 failed. 

 

A self-centering analog joystick is a much harder peripheral to interface than the joystick that came with the 5200. I don’t have any specific information but I suspect Atari tried but couldn’t make the joystick self-centering. 

 

I seem to remember loads of analog self-centering PC joysticks from back in the day (15-pin?), maybe also the Apple ][ computers?

 

http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2021/08/digital-joysticks-and-apple-ii.html

 

I don't see how it would be any harder for the Atari 8-bit computers to interface a 2-pot analog joystick than it was for 2 paddles, which the Atari 400/800 already accepted.  I suspect that Atari simply wasn't interested, they were for whatever reason in love with their 1-button 8-way digital joysticks.  It has always baffled me that they didn't even add a 2nd fire button to the computer joysticks.

 

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

A nice idea, but you can basically count the superior 5200 versions on two hands; so, would it have been worth it? Then there are the reliability issues; unfortunately Best Electronics can't go back to the future and take care of those for Atari.

 

I agree, that couldn't be the only reason to do it.  But adding an analog joystick and immediately having a few games to re-port back that could take advantage of that joystick would demonstrate its usefulness for future computer game developers, now there would be a legitimate choice depending on gameplay, an analog joystick or just use the original digital stick.  I don't remember those PC joysticks being unreliable.  Certainly they require a little more preparation than a simple 8-way digital stick but, again, the computers already accepted paddles, the reliability would be the same there (along with 2 fire buttons).  In no way was I suggesting that Atari should have used the 5200 joysticks, that's why I said self-centering.  I don't remember people complaining that those Advanced Gravis or Mach III type analog sticks being terrible.  Were they?  I didn't own a PC at the time but I had friends who did, they seemed happy with them.

[6502wrangler]

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

I don't see how it would be any harder for the Atari 8-bit computers to interface a 2-pot analog joystick than it was for 2 paddles

 

It’s harder because the centering is done by a spring and needs to be calibrated (which is why the Apple II joysticks you mentioned had those little trim adjustments on the bottom). That’s why the Apple’s analog stick was pretty wonky from game to game (and most games ignored it anyway). 

 

The 5200 joysticks are almost trivial to deal with. They are essentially two paddles (one for X and one for Y). 

 

I suspect Atari’s engineers realized (wisely) that needing to trim controllers on a game console wasn’t compatible with the target audience. 

 

In addition, the spring is yet another thing to break and given how unreliable the 5200 joysticks were already, it’s probably a good thing they weren’t self-centering. 

[zzip]

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

I seem to remember loads of analog self-centering PC joysticks from back in the day (15-pin?), maybe also the Apple ][ computers?

Yes there were, but they weren't very reliable either in my experience.   Several of them broke on me before I switched to a PC D-pad type controller

 

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

I don't see how it would be any harder for the Atari 8-bit computers to interface a 2-pot analog joystick than it was for 2 paddles, which the Atari 400/800 already accepted.  I suspect that Atari simply wasn't interested, they were for whatever reason in love with their 1-button 8-way digital joysticks.  It has always baffled me that they didn't even add a 2nd fire button to the computer joysticks.

It had become a defacto standard by that point, meaning third-party developers were not likely to support the new joystick, they'd support the standard joystick that all Atari users owned.   The 2 button Proline 7800 controller was originally designed for the 2600 and would have presumably work with the computer line, but I can't think of any games that supported the second button.    Similarly The STe did add joystick ports for the Jaguar-style controllers, but you can probably count the games that supported them on one hand.

 

 

[+MrFish]

13 hours ago, ledzep said:

I agree, that couldn't be the only reason to do it.  But adding an analog joystick and immediately having a few games to re-port back that could take advantage of that joystick would demonstrate its usefulness for future computer game developers, now there would be a legitimate choice depending on gameplay, an analog joystick or just use the original digital stick.

Yeah, I thought of that too: that it could have influenced further development for the 8-bits; but who knows. With digital sticks already established, available, reliable, and still providing a great gameplay experience, the incremental improvement of analogue over digital may not have been compelling enough for many developers to take much interest.

 

13 hours ago, ledzep said:

In no way was I suggesting that Atari should have used the 5200 joysticks, that's why I said self-centering.  I don't remember people complaining that those Advanced Gravis or Mach III type analog sticks being terrible.  Were they?  I didn't own a PC at the time but I had friends who did, they seemed happy with them.

I never used them, so I can't comment. My favorite joystick on the PC was the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro. IIRC it used digital encoders. That thing was amazing to use when playing Mechwarrior 4 on the PC. It had all the right controls in the right places to utilize every function and weapon for your Mechwarrior. The stick had a twist function too, that could be set for turning the upper torso of your Mechwarrior, which felt really natural.

 

 

[BIGHMW]

I DO have to admit, that because of Redemption 5200 (both the 2002 OG version from AtariAge/Pixels Past and the newer ones from Nimbleswitch) I have been able to stay in the 5200 loop. If there ever comes a time where I TRULY DID need analog controls I would use my CX52 controllers for such games like Defender, Star Raiders and Star Wars - The Arcade Game. As for paddle games like 5200 Super Breakout, Kaboom and the likes, I have those bases covered too thanks to my ProPaddle 2 5200 paddle controllers (I reviewed them in the video down below) I got out of Germany during the pandemic. And of course what 5200 collection would ever be complete without both the 5200 twin controller holder and also the VCS (2600) adpater, as well as the legendary CX53 Trak-Ball. And don't forget about @Lucas Lac124 and his new 5200 controllers in which are still in the R&D status as I speak and I'll wait as long as it takes for him to get it right so we can all get in on it, as well as RetroGameBoyz's lineup of controllers too.

 

 

 

[Zonie]

I eagerly awaited "System X". When the 5200 came out, The first thing that came to my mind was "These are 400/800 games"!

The controller was cool (looking) But I couldn't stand it.

In the late 80's eventually got a 400 for $10 and fixed a broken joystick port that I still have today. It was out of reach for me and my folks at the time it was in the active market. I got the Vic20 instead, then the C64, but outside the 7800, the 400 gets the most use out of my 400, 800, 5200, and XEGS. The 400 is my most nostalgic console because it was the one I wanted but couldn't have. I have two 4 ports, and I do have Adventure II, but I never take the 5200 out. Now that there is a better source for repair kits, I may give it another whirl. The Wico 5200 controllers aren't great.

[David Alexander]

I got the 5200 back in 1983. It came with Pacman. I was blown away when for the first time I got to see the intermission sequence between mazes.

Hours and hours of Wizard of Wor, Joust, Star Raiders. It truly was the super system.

 

[+Stephen]

Star Raiders was the killer app of the 8-bit Atari chipset.  It was a system seller for the 400/800, and when the 5200 version added analog controls, it took the to spot for sure!

 

I always wanted to make a custom analog flight stick + control panel, for the ultimate version of the game on the 8-bit computers.  Imagine if Atari would have made a cockpit style (sit in) arcade machine running this game!

[BIGHMW]

8 hours ago, Stephen said:

Star Raiders was the killer app of the 8-bit Atari chipset.  It was a system seller for the 400/800, and when the 5200 version added analog controls, it took the to spot for sure!

 

I always wanted to make a custom analog flight stick + control panel, for the ultimate version of the game on the 8-bit computers.  Imagine if Atari would have made a cockpit style (sit in) arcade machine running this game!

The Triga Command from Electra Concepts would be THE MOST ergonomically-perfect controller to use with Star Raiders, and especially in analog if Electra Concepts had ever though of making one for the 5200. With its trigger-mounted fire button and jet/starfighter-like handle that would've been an awesome setup alongside either the A8/EXGS keyboard or a Retro-Game-Boyz Masterplay or vintage Wico 5200 keypad for total starfighter-like control mush like those in the starcruisers in either Star Wars or on the Buck Rogers or Battlestar Galactica TV series.

Edited October 20, 2023 by BIGHMW