5200 and the arcade experience

[Flyindrew]

7 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

 

 

But games like 5200 Super Breakout, Centipede, and Galaxian really make the 5200 controllers a unique experience and an advantage in my case.

 

 

I hear what your saying. Im the same way with strong preference for  5200 controllers for other games (Defender, Pole Position, Moon Patrol, Star Raiders) and will accept no substitute. Yet there are other games (Super Breakout, Pac Man, Kangaroo), where I refuse to use the 5200 controller and accept any and all all substitutes. There is no "right or wrong". Its just interesting how people's preferences vary and at least there are controller alternatives out there. 

[ledzep]

On 6/22/2023 at 6:15 AM, Flyindrew said:

To start, aside from Neo Breakout on Atari 50, the 5200/8 bit version of Super Breakout is my favorite. But....I kinda have to disagree about the controller. I have Super Breakout both on my 5200 and 8 bit cartridge. The traditional paddle controller (on the 8 bit) is far superior than the 5200 controller. However, there are other 5200 games (looking at you Defender, Moon Patrol, Pole Position) where I love the traditional 5200 controller as opposed to a CX40 or 7800 controller.

 

A simple rule for me is the arcade game (whatever game you choose) has the best/correct controls because that's what it was born with and was designed for.  Even if you hate how it plays and it would be "better" with a different controller.  There are a few of those games though I'm blanking on which ones (ah yes, spinner instead of buttons for Asteroids type games, for example) but that's just my frustration at sucking at them, the controllers are correct.  Meaning, Breakout (any version) is supposed to be played with a paddle.  Doesn't matter if some people like/do great with analog joysticks (or trak-balls), paddle über alles.  It's more accurate (more precise stopping from one direction to the other) and it's what the game expects.  I remember trying to play Breakout with a joystick (analog or digital), it's hell.  Same goes for Kaboom!.  Major Havoc requires a roller, a spinner (Tempest conversion) or trak-ball doesn't cut it even though both are analog.

 

On 6/22/2023 at 8:19 AM, NE146 said:

I mean I grew up with the system, and I think whether Super Breakout is 'good' by any measure is pretty much up to you lol. I fully remember being "wowed' by the dissolving blocks when we first tried the game but as far as liking Breakout as a game itself.. at the end of the day in 1982 I wanted games that had space battles 

 

What are you talking about, haven't you actually looked at Super Breakout?  The background is black!  Space!  You're in space blowing up space bricks using your space paddle!!  Just ask Buzz -

 

[phuzaxeman]

10 hours ago, ledzep said:

Meaning, Breakout (any version) is supposed to be played with a paddle.  Doesn't matter if some people like/do great with analog joysticks (or trak-balls), paddle über alles.  It's more accurate (more precise stopping from one direction to the other) and it's what the game expects.  

 

I disagree with you.  It does matter if people like the analog sticks. It's what I play and prefer.  To say that 5200 Super Breakout is supposed to be played on paddles is an opinion. 5200 Super Breakout was created with the analog sticks in mind.

 

Second, using paddles on 5200 Super Breakout doesn't mean it's more accurate and the 5200 analog sticks are inaccurate. I grew up with the 2600 Breakout and 5200 Super Breakout and I find that the 5200 analog sticks are more accurate to me. It's actually physically faster to go from right to left using analog sticks than to turn a paddle. I've tested it.  I grew up on the analog sticks and that's why I'm good at it. 

 

That's like someone telling me to use digital sticks for 5200 Galaxian because digital sticks are more accurate. Lol. 

 

Some visitors are forgetting that there are 5200 fans that grew up on the 5200 in an Atari 5200 forum. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[jerry1071]

I agree the 5200 was a great console highly underrated

[christo930]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:26 AM, phuzaxeman said:

I get the humor. And Super Breakout wouldn't be my choice for a pack in game.

 

But the stock controls are perfect for Super Breakout. Better then the 2600 paddle for Breakout for me.

 

There is a difference between 2600 breakout and 5200 Super Breakout starting with the more detailed graphics even if it is minimal. The effect of the bricks disintegrating are cool. The sounds are also better too on the 5200. 2600 breakout is clunky and redundant compared to the 5200.

 

Super Breakout gets ridiculed because it was the pack in game but it's a great title and many hard core 5200 fans stand behind it. 

 

The controller had an issue with reliability. Today, that issue is not a problem with updates. The controls is what made the 5200 a cutting edge experience. If you don't know how to use them or didn't grow up with them, you don't understand.

 

I completely disagree on all fronts.  The 2600 version of Super Breakout is outstanding and is about as close to a perfect arcade port as a 2600 ever gets.   The sound is also outstanding.  I love those weird echo effect sounds.  The paddle is the perfect controller for it and the analog joystick is not.  It simply doesn't control well at all.  I seem to have lost it, but I even had a modified 5200 joystick with the actual stick removed and replaced with a paddle to play Kaboom and Super Breakout on the 5200. I made it back in the early 2000s.  That is the only way I have ever enjoyed playing those games on the 5200.

 

I did not grow up with a 5200. I had a 2600. But I got a 5200 in the early part of the mid 90s, so I've been using a 5200 for a long time.  It's coming on 30 years (damn we are getting old).

[christo930]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:09 AM, phuzaxeman said:

I get it. Most people like the traditional 2600 Breakout with paddle controllers. That's what people know.

To be honest, I'm not particularly crazy about Breakout on the 2600.  But Super Breakout improves the game in every way. I especially like the "progressive" version of the game.  Oddly enough, the progressive setting is the one minor shortcoming of the game and that was the lack of RAM (presumably, since any cell on the screen can be a brick or not a brick, this would mean 2 screens worth of RAM, both the player and the non-playing player) to make it a 2 player game.  But since I rarely play Super Breakout with friends today, it's not really an issue.

 

It's not really about what I like or don't like, though admittedly, I do "like" the paddle control. It's how the game was designed in the first place. From day 1 it was meant to use a paddle and the arcade cabinets had paddle controllers. To be the most authentic to the arcade, it has to played with a paddle. 

 

This has haunted home computer/console game makers for a long time. Tempest, Ikari Warriors (a great game), Major Havoc, Paperboy, Defender, Stargate and countless others where the home version of the game suffers to a large extent for not having the right controller.  Even a game as simple as asteroids plays differently with 5 buttons. It always felt inauthentic to me to play asteroids with a 1 button joystick.  I will only play asteroids on an emulator so I can use the LR H TF layout. Same with star castle.  The 4 buttons is why it is so great on the Vectrex (not to mention the vector monitor).  I bought the MS Arcade pack back in the 90s to play Asteroids with proper button layout.  Look at the horrible control scheme of Defender on the 2600!  IIRC (because it has been so long since I played it because of its problems), you have to fly off the screen to use a smart bomb.  It just totally changes the game.  Or Ikari Warriors on a NES or 7800. It's awful without the spinning joystick. It's basically a different game.

 

  It's not like I don't "know" the analog stick version. I just find it doesn't control well for me despite giving it a lot of effort.  Some people can work around bad controls, some cannot.  I'm just one of those who cannot.

[phuzaxeman]

1 hour ago, christo930 said:

To be honest, I'm not particularly crazy about Breakout on the 2600.  But Super Breakout improves the game in every way. I especially like the "progressive" version of the game.  Oddly enough, the progressive setting is the one minor shortcoming of the game and that was the lack of RAM (presumably, since any cell on the screen can be a brick or not a brick, this would mean 2 screens worth of RAM, both the player and the non-playing player) to make it a 2 player game.  But since I rarely play Super Breakout with friends today, it's not really an issue.

I never noticed any "ram" issue with progressive mode.  As a family, we even played 4 players on Super Breakout progressive mode.

1 hour ago, christo930 said:

 

It's not really about what I like or don't like, though admittedly, I do "like" the paddle control. It's how the game was designed in the first place. From day 1 it was meant to use a paddle and the arcade cabinets had paddle controllers. To be the most authentic to the arcade, it has to played with a paddle. 

I've been to a lot of arcades in the 80s. A lot.  I've never seen a Super Breakout machine let along a machine with paddles. The arcade analogy doesn't apply.

Asteroids was made to control with buttons. Should we dog the Atari 2600 Asteroids game because people love using the 2600 sticks but it was not like the arcade?

The 5200 sticks play Super Breakout perfectly for me. 

1 hour ago, christo930 said:

 

 

 

  It's not like I don't "know" the analog stick version. I just find it doesn't control well for me despite giving it a lot of effort.  Some people can work around bad controls, some cannot.  I'm just one of those who cannot.

If it doesn't work for you and you prefer paddles that's fine.  But you cannot deny the fact that it works fine for me. To say the 5200 sticks are bad controls for Super Breakout is ignorant. Bad controls wouldn't allow me to get high scores.  The 5200 sticks in the 80s were unreliable not bad. Imagine playing Super Breakout on the Colecovision or Intellivision. 

[phuzaxeman]

2 hours ago, christo930 said:

 It simply doesn't control well at all. 

For you.  Did you want me to make video of me clearing a screen with no problem on Super Breakout and the controllers can be used flawlessly?

Edited June 25, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[ledzep]

10 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I disagree with you.  It does matter if people like the analog sticks. It's what I play and prefer.  To say that 5200 Super Breakout is supposed to be played on paddles is an opinion. 5200 Super Breakout was created with the analog sticks in mind.

 

Oh sure, players can like/prefer whatever is their favorite.  That's got nothing to do with how the game is supposed to be played.  It's not an opinion, Breakout was designed to be played with a paddle.  Not even a Tempest style spinner (though that works almost as well), but a paddle -

 

https://www.vernimark.com/arcades/videogioco/super-breakout/

 

Well well well, what's that at bottom center, not very stick-looking at all (love those tri-color border graphics, so Atari) -

 

 

10 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Second, using paddles on 5200 Super Breakout doesn't mean it's more accurate and the 5200 analog sticks are inaccurate. I grew up with the 2600 Breakout and 5200 Super Breakout and I find that the 5200 analog sticks are more accurate to me. It's actually physically faster to go from right to left using analog sticks than to turn a paddle. I've tested it.  I grew up on the analog sticks and that's why I'm good at it. 

 

Never said the 5200 analog sticks were inaccurate, that's you putting words in my mouth, I only said that the paddles were more accurate, because they are in terms of what the game was designed for.  They're both analog controls so they act similarly, but the paddle is best for Breakout games, same as a spinner is a decent controller for Major Havoc but not as good as that roller controller.

 

You could grow up using a digital joystick and be good at Breakout using that, wouldn't change what the best controller for the game actually is.  The paddle is more accurate because of how precisely you can stop movement in a direction and place the paddle in the right spot to return the ball (or dot or whatever it's supposed to be).  Faster doesn't matter, the paddle is more than fast enough to get from one side to the other, the whole sweep of the turning range is only like 200 degrees of rotation or less(?) side to side (some are less than 180 degrees if I remember right), it's not like having a car steering wheel that needs 3+ full rotations to go from full left to full right.  Go ahead, fire up a Breakout game with a paddle controller, see how fast you can snap that paddle back and forth.  More than fast enough.

 

I grew up with 5200 analog sticks, too.  Love them.  But the first opportunity I got to buy a couple 5200 sticks modded to be paddles I jumped at the chance (not in the mood to do it myself and break something brittle).  Super Breakout and Kaboom! are a night and day difference better with paddles.  I'm not saying they're unplayable with the stock analog sticks, only that they were meant for the right controller, a paddle.

 

10 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

That's like someone telling me to use digital sticks for 5200 Galaxian because digital sticks are more accurate. Lol.

 

A digital stick (2-way, yes?) is the intended controller for Galaxian, so that will always be the most accurate to the arcade version.

 

 

Accuracy and authenticity matters, that's what separates the good ports from the great ones.

 

You're not supposed to be able to move faster or slower, only at one speed side to side, it adds to the tension when the enemies are closing in.  So if the 5200 version doesn't take advantage of the analog stick's variable speed (I can't remember), great.  If it does, it's a different game.  You may like it better that way, but that ain't Galaxian.  Lol.

 

10 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Some visitors are forgetting that there are 5200 fans that grew up on the 5200 in an Atari 5200 forum. 

 

Right?  Or 5200 fans who grew up playing that console when it was new, in 1982!  As in, long before AtariAge or any other 5200 forum existed.  What?  There were gamers before gaming forums?!

 

9 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I've been to a lot of arcades in the 80s. A lot.  I've never seen a Super Breakout machine let along a machine with paddles. The arcade analogy doesn't apply.

 

Not enough, apparently.  I played that game in a few arcades (certainly not the most popular game so it was rare to see in person) along with other obscure games in stupid locations like inside a Sears in the Northridge Mall (Canyon Bomber).  The arcade analogy always applies to arcade ports whether you've personally played them in arcades or not.  What the fuck is being ported if the arcade analogy doesn't apply?  For the port to be the most accurate to the arcade original, it should have the original controller type, the original game logic, the original look, etc.  Sorry to break it to you, but even a game that is changed from a vertical screen to horizontal changes how it plays.  Pong.  Paddle.  Warlords.  Paddle.  Man, playing Castle Crisis on the 5200 with paddle controllers is the closest thing to the Warlords arcade experience.

 

Now, that's not to say that an arcade game that's really hard to port accurately (or the console isn't up to the task) can't be changed to a newer version of itself.  "Inspired by", if you will.  So it's the arcade game, but it isn't.  Some of those games are as fun, or more fun, than the originals.  Or just different, but still great.  I think Yar's Revenge derived from a failed Star Castle porting attempt is the most extreme example.  That's fine, but just don't directly compare them to the original arcade games or claim they're the same when they clearly ain't.

 

7 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Asteroids was made to control with buttons. Should we dog the Atari 2600 Asteroids game because people love using the 2600 sticks but it was not like the arcade?

 

Yes.  Joystick makes the game easier.  And different.

 

It's its own thing, not a bad game, fun for what it is (a favorite with me and my friends), but miserable compared to the original.  Not just because it's not vector (how could it be on a raster TV screen) but more because it only allowed turning position in 16(?  12?) different directions (it's possible for the attacking alien to be in a position where the player cannot line up a shot without moving to a new position or waiting for the saucer to get really close, not like the arcade gameplay at all) whereas the original game could have the ship aimed in any direction (more accurate aiming for shooting asteroids or enemy saucers).  The game was designed for buttons, just like Space Wars, Rip-Off, Space Invaders, etc.

 

Thankfully I got a Starplex controller off eBay years ago so now that porting problem at least is solved -

 

https://nostalgiaking.com/2018/05/30/starplex-controller/

 

Do it right or don't do it at all, the arcade games deserve that much.

[christo930]

 

7 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I never noticed any "ram" issue with progressive mode.  As a family, we even played 4 players on Super Breakout progressive mode.

The 2600 version is one player only. I wasn't talking about the 5200 version. The 5200 has more RAM available than the 2600.

 

7 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

For you.  Did you want me to make video of me clearing a screen with no problem on Super Breakout and the controllers can be used flawlessly?

I don't claim it doesn't work for you.  I just take you at your word that you are as good at the game as you say you are and that you like the 5200 analog stick for playing the game.  I even said some people can adjust to poor controls but that I am not one of these people.

 

7 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I've been to a lot of arcades in the 80s. A lot.  I've never seen a Super Breakout machine let along a machine with paddles. The arcade analogy doesn't apply.

Asteroids was made to control with buttons. Should we dog the Atari 2600 Asteroids game because people love using the 2600 sticks but it was not like the arcade?

The 5200 sticks play Super Breakout perfectly for me. 

 

I also went to quite a few arcades in the 80s. There were arcades everywhere back then and the machines were everywhere too.

 

The fact that you haven't played super breakout on an arcade cabinet does not mean anything. It doesn't make it not an arcade port.

 

Yes, the 2600 joystick control of Asteroids harms the game. It is nowhere near as easy to control with the joystick. This was not the only compromise to Atari 2600 Asteroids. If arcade authenticity is what you want, you have to move on.  I believe multiple 3rd party companies were selling 5 button controllers back then so you could make asteroids just a little more authentic and be more like the arcade.

 

I'm glad they work perfectly for you. Have fun playing the game.  Am I supposed to tell you that you're wrong for liking the game? Worse, that you're lying and don't really like the game and that you really suck at it?

 

 

[phuzaxeman]

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

Oh sure, players can like/prefer whatever is their favorite.  That's got nothing to do with how the game is supposed to be played.  It's not an opinion, Breakout was designed to be played with a paddle.  Not even a Tempest style spinner (though that works almost as well), but a paddle -

Not in my mind in 82.  I've never seen a Super Breakout machine. 5200 Super Breakout was designed and configured for the 5200 console. 5200 Super Breakout is technically not the same game. There are also differences between the arcade and the 5200. 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

 

 

Never said the 5200 analog sticks were inaccurate, that's you putting words in my mouth...

You said the controllers were "bad" controllers. 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

You could grow up using a digital joystick and be good at Breakout using that, wouldn't change what the best controller for the game actually is.  

Again, the best controller is subjective. You're stating your opinion which I don't agree.

 

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

 

A digital stick (2-way, yes?) is the intended controller for Galaxian, so that will always be the most accurate to the arcade version.

 

Again, you're bringing up the arcade Galaxian.  I said the 5200 Galaxian.  You're post is showing you don't know the difference between the arcade and 5200 Galaxian.  5200 Galaxian was made for the analog 5200 sticks because you can go fast and slow going left and right. I have two of the Atari Age Galaxian records. Go break them using your digital sticks and share your video and I'll send you a 2 cases of beer. lol/  

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

Accuracy and authenticity matters, that's what separates the good ports from the great ones.

 

You're not supposed to be able to move faster or slower, only at one speed side to side, it adds to the tension when the enemies are closing in.  So if the 5200 version doesn't take advantage of the analog stick's variable speed (I can't remember), great.  If it does, it's a different game.  You may like it better that way, but that ain't Galaxian.  Lol.

 

 

 

 

[phuzaxeman]

14 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

 

 Worse, that you're lying and don't really like the game and that you really suck at it?

 

 

I wouldn't be wasting my time writing about Super Breakout if I didn't like the game. I definitely do suck at it. lol. 

[ledzep]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

Not in my mind in 82.  I've never seen a Super Breakout machine. 5200 Super Breakout was designed and configured for the 5200 console. 5200 Super Breakout is technically not the same game. There are also differences between the arcade and the 5200. 

 

Like I said, have whatever favorite versions you like, that's got nothing to do with "5200 and the arcade experience" as the subject line of this thread says.  I'm sure there's a handheld Breakout that uses buttons somewhere, too, so what.  Breakout, any version = paddle.  That's what the original version (arcade) was designed with, that's the best version.  Period.  You might run across a version that moves the paddle by reading your eye movement, so what, not the actual game.

 

5200 Super Breakout was adapted to the 5200 based on the hardware at hand, Breakout already existed before the 5200 was made.  I assume it also plays with the Trak-ball, yes?  Dammit, "Trak-ball Compatible", says so right on the box.  So then, which controller is 5200 Super Breakout really designed and configured for?  Analog joystick?  Trak-ball?  Both?  Can't be both because you can only use one controller at a time.  What do you say to Super Breakout fans who insist that the Trak-ball is the best controller to use?  Especially if they tell you that "in their mind" the Trak-ball is best and that's how they get their highest scores?  I mean, it is a 5200 controller and the game was adapted to it as well.  What a conundrum.

 

Go in as many circles as you like, it doesn't change that Super Breakout was designed and configured for a paddle controller.  What it was shithammered into to work with other consoles after the fact changes nothing.

 

Missile Command, trak-ball controller.  Period.  I don't care how much higher your scores are using the analog joystick (or the 2600 version with the digital joystick), the game was designed for the trak-ball, otherwise it's Almost Missile Command, same as Super Breakout with analog joystick is Almost Super Breakout.  Fun versions, not arcade-accurate.  They might even be better versions with the wrong controllers to some people, still not the right versions.  And three missile bases, goddammit, not one.

 

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

You said the controllers were "bad" controllers.

 

Where did I say that?  I was just looking through older posts, I don't see where I said that.  Some people claim that the analog joysticks are bad in general, that's the consistent knock on the 5200, but I never saw it that way.

 

Compared to paddles, which are the controllers that Breakout was designed for, joysticks are "bad".  The fact that a 5200 joystick is actually using 2 potentiometers (1 each for horizontal and vertical), and a paddle controller uses a potentiometer, means that the 5200 analog joystick is actually a (double-)paddle.  So, again, a paddle is best for Super Breakout since the vertical movement isn't used.  But a joystick handle isn't as accurate as a paddle knob in terms of precise placement (stopping at a very specific spot).

 

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again, the best controller is subjective. You're stating your opinion which I don't agree.

 

The best controller for you to use is subjective, certainly, yes.  The best controller for attaining the most accurate arcade experience for the home console port is not.  Not an opinion, just look at the arcade game source.  Paddle.

 

If you want the most accurate conversion for Defender then you should have a 2-way digital joystick (up and down only) and 4 buttons (reverse, thrust, fire and smart bomb) with the joystick on the left (2 hands mandatory).  Period.

 

 

Now, what home console has that layout?  None, too cumbersome and expensive.  So joystick it is.  I can't remember if 5200 Defender allows up and down with variable speed but if it does, it's even less true to the original (the game is supposed to be hard, no cheats with home console abilities not part of the arcade version).  Still fun, maybe more fun than the arcade game (the arcade version certainly owned me repeatedly and I get further with the 5200 version) but not how it should be played.

 

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again, you're bringing up the arcade Galaxian.  I said the 5200 Galaxian.  You're post is showing you don't know the difference between the arcade and 5200 Galaxian.  5200 Galaxian was made for the analog 5200 sticks because you can go fast and slow going left and right. I have two of the Atari Age Galaxian records. Go break them using your digital sticks and share your video and I'll send you a 2 cases of beer. lol/  

 

That's just your opinion (man, you can use that response for anything, apparently, hahaaha).

 

 

I certainly know the difference between the arcade Galaxian and 5200 Galaxian, played both version hundreds of times.  The 5200 is the port of the original.  The original is the standard for "arcade experience" since it's the actual arcade version.  Now, I love home console ports of arcade games, especially when they take advantage of whatever the home consoles can offer.  Love the extra game options in Space Invaders and Asteroids, for example, that aren't in the arcade versions.  And I love that the 5200 takes advantage of the analog joystick (and trak-ball).  But it's not what the arcade version uses.  That's why I was saying that if the 5200 version has a setting for digital (constant speed) joystick then that would be more accurate and a better port.  If it doesn't, so what, not the end of the world, still a very fun game, but it's not the "arcade experience" and arcade experience is what separates the good ports from the great ports.  lol/

 

If I remember correctly the 5200 Galaxian also allows you to shoot more shots than the arcade version, in the arcade you're only allowed to have one shot on the screen at a time no matter how often you hit the fire button (hit something or wait for the shot to cross the top of the screen).  Much harder, really affects the strategy.  But that's actual arcade Galaxian, not whatever hybrid the 5200 is, regardless of your high scores.

 

Once you name your game port after an arcade game, it better be the arcade game.  Just ask everyone who bought 2600 Pac-Man, haahaaaha.

[+x=usr(1536)]

I'm confused.  This thread isn't about 10,000,000 ports of A8 games to the 5200 or vice-versa.  Is this still the 5200 forum?

[BIGHMW]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I'm confused.  This thread isn't about 10,000,000 ports of A8 games to the 5200 or vice-versa.  Is this still the 5200 forum?

Yes.

 

....and BTW, this most recent rash of posts on this thread waters my mouth enough and inspires me to want to buy an old 2600 joystick controller (pretty much an old CX40) so I can use the wiring codes from it to maybe fashion up a custom homemade Asteroids/Galaxian/Space Invaders/Star Island-style controller using some buttons (type of switches used TBD) in a small project box for REAL arcade feel, and yes it WILL work with the 5200 if you use a Masterplay or the 2600/Sega version of Redemption 5200 (7800 version for games like 7800 Astro Blaster or 5200 Defender or 5200 Meteorites and others that use BOTH fire buttons to be made soon using a cord from an old 7800 controller too!).

Edited June 26, 2023 by BIGHMW

[phuzaxeman]

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

That's what the original version (arcade) was designed with, that's the best version.  Period.  

Like what I mentioned before, I never saw Super Breakout in the 80s. I played it many years afterwards. To say the arcade version is the "best version" is your opinion.  That is not a fact. I like the 5200 Super Breakout better.

 

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

5200 Super Breakout was adapted to the 5200 based on the hardware at hand, Breakout already existed before the 5200 was made.  I assume it also plays with the Trak-ball, yes?  

This 5200 Super Breakout version was exclusive to this system and program to work for analog sticks and 5200 track ball.  No other console had the precision of these two exclusive cotrols.

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

Compared to paddles, which are the controllers that Breakout was designed for, joysticks are "bad". 

Again I disagree. That's a myth. You can't claim the 5200 controls are "bad" even compared to a paddle, when people are attaining records and high scores on Super Breakout. 

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

The best controller for attaining the most accurate arcade experience for the home console port is not. 

I'm not talking about arcade experience. Our conversation has been about the 5200 controllers.

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

If you want the most accurate conversion for Defender then you should have a 2-way digital joystick (up and down only) and 4 buttons (reverse, thrust, fire and smart bomb) with the joystick on the left (2 hands mandatory).  Period.

First of all, nobody here was bringing up Defender. Since you brought up Defender, the 5200 sticks are the only sticks in that era that could fire and press the smart bomb in one hand.  

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 But it's not what the arcade version uses.  That's why I was saying that if the 5200 version has a setting for digital (constant speed) joystick then that would be more accurate and a better port.  If it doesn't, so what, not the end of the world, still a very fun game, but it's not the "arcade experience" and arcade experience is what separates the good ports from the great ports.  lol/

Accurate to the arcade? That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about the design of the game and how the game uses an analog stick.  I'm not disputing arcade accuracy or the "arcade experience." You changing the subject.

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

If I remember correctly the 5200 Galaxian also allows you to shoot more shots than the arcade version, in the arcade you're only allowed to have one shot on the screen at a time no matter how often you hit the fire button (hit something or wait for the shot to cross the top of the screen).  Much harder, really affects the strategy.  But that's actual arcade Galaxian, not whatever hybrid the 5200 is, regardless of your high scores.

Here again I'm not debating the differences between the arcade and 5200 accuracy. We're talking about the controllers. The 5200 version is unique because of the speed of the game and the use of analog controls. 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

Yes.

 

....and BTW, this most recent rash of posts on this thread waters my mouth enough and inspires me to want to buy an old 2600 joystick controller (pretty much an old CX40) so I can use the wiring codes from it to maybe fashion up a custom homemade Asteroids/Galaxian/Space Invaders/Star Island-style controller using some buttons (type of switches used TBD) in a small project box for REAL arcade feel, and yes it WILL work with the 5200 if you use a Masterplay or the 2600/Sega version of Redemption 5200 (7800 version for games like 7800 Astro Blaster or 5200 Defender or 5200 Meteorites and others that use BOTH fire buttons to be made soon using a cord from an old 7800 controller too!).

When you do this, be sure to make a video of the build and upload it to your channel.  There are probably others who would want to follow along.

[ledzep]

3 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Like what I mentioned before, I never saw Super Breakout in the 80s. I played it many years afterwards. To say the arcade version is the "best version" is your opinion.  That is not a fact. I like the 5200 Super Breakout better.

 

Doesn't matter what you like or saw or didn't see in the '80s.  In terms of the "arcade experience" (look up at the top of this thread, that's the title), nothing is better than the arcade version.  Therefore, the arcade experience (on any home console) must strive to be as close as possible to the arcade version otherwise what's the point.  The 2600 is closer because it uses a paddle like the arcade version.  That is a fact.  Breakout = paddle.  Whatever you prefer is for you, doesn't apply to a general "arcade experience".  Turning the lights off and having '80s music blaring while you play might make you score even higher but it doesn't apply, either.

 

5 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

This 5200 Super Breakout version was exclusive to this system and program to work for analog sticks and 5200 track ball.  No other console had the precision of these two exclusive cotrols.

 

What are you talking about?  The 2600 had even better precision because it used the Paddle controller, just like the arcade version.  Maybe you don't understand the concept of "arcade experience"?  That must be where the confusion lies.  It doesn't matter what your arcade memories are, it only matters how various ports compare to the arcade originals.

 

So are you saying if somebody else gets a higher score in 5200 Super Breakout using a trak-ball that your declaration that the analog joystick is the best controller for Super Breakout no longer is true?

 

9 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again I disagree. That's a myth. You can't claim the 5200 controls are "bad" even compared to a paddle, when people are attaining records and high scores on Super Breaout. 

 

Not a myth, simple fact when you look at the arcade version which is the source of the game to which all console versions are derived from and compared to.  Nobody gives a shit if people are attaining records and high scores on Super Breakout using other controls than a paddle, that has nothing to do with the arcade experience in terms of the 5200.  "Bad" doesn't mean you can't attain great scores, "bad" means incorrect controller.  The arcade version was designed to use a paddle, therefore the paddle is the best controller, even if you get the lowest scores with paddles.

 

Now, if the console game logic is crap, the game doesn't do most/all of the same things as the arcade version, doesn't react the same way, then the correct controller isn't going to help much (2600 Pac-Man) in terms of supplying an accurate arcade experience.

 

12 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I'm not talking about arcade experience. Our conversation has been about the 5200 controllers.

 

No, that's your conversation.  I've been posting in this "5200 and the arcade experience" thread.  Unlike you, I actually played Super Breakout in the arcade.  That game uses a paddle controller.  Therefore that's the correct controller for getting the arcade experience.

 

14 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

First of all, nobody here was bringing up Defender. Since you brought up Defender, the 5200 sticks are the only sticks in that era that could fire and press the smart bomb in one hand.  

 

It was another example of the correct control scheme for the arcade version of a game, a concept that again went completely over your head.  Ya, the 5200 had an advantage with 2 fire buttons, that made it more true to the arcade version.  But it's not the same controller so even if you can score higher on 5200 Defender with an analog joystick, that doesn't make that controller the best for that game in terms of the arcade experience.  Is this getting through yet?  Whatever controller was used on the arcade original version of any arcade game is the default correct/best controller.  You may prefer a different controller or wish this or that arcade game came with a different control scheme but that's your opinion, it has no bearing on what is correct.  Whatever the arcade game was designed with, that's correct. Live with it.

 

18 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Accurate to the arcade? That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about the design of the game and how the game uses an analog stick.  I'm not disputing arcade accuracy or the "arcade experience." You changing the subject.

 

Yes we are talking about accurate to the arcade, it's in the fucking title of the thread.  It's not necessary (unless you have a poor command of English and context) to have to include the phrase "In terms of being accurate to the arcade..." in every post to clue you in that that's the main focus of this thread, regardless of how many tangents are introduced.  The design of Super Breakout was aimed at being played in the arcade and that version uses a paddle.  Done.  Whatever consoles modify that control scheme due to limitations or controller availability doesn't change the fact that the paddle is the best controller for Super Breakout.  Enjoy every other option available at home, nobody is stopping you.  But the best controller for playing Super Breakout, in terms of the arcade experience, is a paddle.

 

But, in order to clear things up, after a tangent on buying CDs in the '80s (related to software released on CD and prices in general back then) and then talk about how Atari screwed up business-wise, eventually christo930 posted a pretend conversation to explain how the 5200 came packed with Super Breakout as the game to show off the "Super System" and the amazing new controllers and, hahaha, pointing out that the controllers were "entirely unsuitable" (I wouldn't go that far but they are not correct).  Then you chimed in about Super Breakout not being your first choice for a pack-in game and that the stock 5200 controls are, for you, perfect for Super Breakout and better than the 2600 paddle for Breakout.  Flyindrew disagreed, saying the traditional paddle controller is far superior, others agreed, and now we're here.  So, in essence, you changed the subject though who cares, the subject had been changed many times already.  That's the nature of forum threads.

 

34 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Here again I'm not debating the differences between the arcade and 5200 accuracy. We're talking about the controllers. The 5200 version is unique because of the speed of the game and the use of analog controls. 

 

Agreed, the 5200 is very unique, though the Vectrex also features an analog joystick (which self-centers, making it superior to many gamers), with better non-mushy buttons (but no keypad), and it suffers from no trak-ball option.  If you're talking about the 5200 controllers and arcade ports (Super Breakout) then, like it or not, you are debating the differences between arcade and 5200 accuracy.  Because except for Tailgunner, Red Baron and a few other arcade games that escape me, most didn't use analog-style joysticks so every port was going to be less accurate than the original regardless of how much you love the switch to an analog joystick on the 5200.

 

"It's the best because that's how I score the highest!" is a pointless argument because that's a preference, not fact, it can be negated by anyone who says he scores higher with paddles or a trak-ball.  There is no standard for rating console controllers based on what phuzaxeman's highest scores are with each option.  That only applies to you.  For me it's what comes closest to the arcade original regardless of what my own scores are.  I'm sure other people have their own views.  But the arcade originals are universal (they existed in the arcades) fact.  What controllers they were designed with is universal fact.  Any discussions about the arcade experience and comparisons are based off those starting points.  There is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it?  Preferable?  Certainly.  Easier to score higher with, sure.  More comfortable or intuitive, absolutely.  Better?  No way, only the original controller is correct and the best, all variants are lesser even if most people like other controllers for some games.

[phuzaxeman]

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

In terms of the "arcade experience" (look up at the top of this thread, that's the title), nothing is better than the arcade version.  

Again, I'm not disputing which is better arcade vs 5200. We're talking about the controls.  You said they were bad controls. They are not. 

 

To say "nothing is better than the arcade" with any game is still an opinion. 

 

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 

What are you talking about?  The 2600 had even better precision...

Again, that is an opinion.  I grew up on both and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores because they feel better precision for me. 

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

So are you saying if somebody else gets a higher score in 5200 Super Breakout using a trak-ball that your declaration that the analog joystick is the best controller for Super Breakout no longer is true?

 

5200 Super Breakout was made for the analog sticks and 5200 track ball which are both exclusive 5200 controls for the 5200. 

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

"Bad" doesn't mean you can't attain great scores, "bad" means incorrect controller.  

So the 5200 controllers are "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. We might as well call all kinds of controllers "bad" (i.e., intellivision, etc) because they are the "wrong controller." Your logic is flawed.

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

 

It was another example of the correct control scheme for the arcade version of a game, a concept that again went completely over your head.  Ya, the 5200 had an advantage with 2 fire buttons, that made it more true to the arcade version.  But it's not the same controller so even if you can score higher on 5200 Defender with an analog joystick, that doesn't make that controller the best for that game in terms of the arcade experience.  

Again, I'm not debating about the controllers giving us the exact arcade experience. You said the controllers were "bad" for Super Breakout. You also said it was bad because they are the wrong controllers. lol It's all your opinion.

 

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 

Yes we are talking about accurate to the arcade, it's in the fucking title of the thread.

So now you swearing. Go back to my posts. I'm talking about 5200 controls. People like you just say the controllers are "bad" and "wrong" when I see them differently.  

22 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

There is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it? 

Yes, there is such a thing. I don't even need to explain this one.

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

To say "nothing is better than the arcade" with any game is still an opinion. 

It is not "better or worse".  It is "different".  Therefore, different from the arcade experience, means NOT the arcade experience.  The thread title is "5200 and the arcade experience".  You don't replicate the arcade experience of a sit down Star Wars arcade cabinet by sitting at a small open cocktail machine.  Is one better or worse?  No.  Are they different, yes.  This is a very simple concept.

[BIGHMW]

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

When you do this, be sure to make a video of the build and upload it to your channel.  There are probably others who would want to follow along.

I will. This will be one more project on top of my making some of my handmade beaded jewelry I like to make of various different types of beads.

 

After I get caught up financially I'll start obtaining the parts needed (CX40 joystick and its wiring, project box and buttons, type TBD) so I can get going on this, it should be interesting to see how she comes out, hey, at least Retro-Game-Boyz hasn't done anything like that yet. So I WILL!!!

[ledzep]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

Again, I'm not disputing which is better arcade vs 5200. We're talking about the controls.  You said they were bad controls. They are not. 

 

To say "nothing is better than the arcade" with any game is still an opinion. 

 

Nobody is disputing which is better, arcade vs 5200 (I love them both).  You imagine that people are saying that, maybe, which says a lot about your reading comprehension.  We are not talking about controls, you are.  We (at least some of us) are talking about controls as they pertain to the arcade experience with the 5200.  Once you actually understand the subject line of this thread and let it percolate through your various 5200-analog-joystick-centered biases, you will hopefully understand that what is a great controller (I love the 5200 analog joystick) is not automatically also the best controller for (subject line) the arcade experience.  Keep ignoring "arcade experience" all you like, doesn't change anything, and admitting you never even played the arcade (true original) version of Super Breakout in arcades kneecaps any logic you attempt to employ to claim that the analog joystick is a better controller for Super Breakout than a paddle (as designed for the arcade version).

 

To say "nothing is better than the arcade" for the controller of a home console port of an arcade game is fact.  But go ahead, keep ignoring the subject line.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

Again, that is an opinion.  I grew up on both and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores because they feel better precision for me. 

 

Your personal experience only applies to you.  The subject line of this thread applies to the 5200 and all of its owners/users in general.  Again, your logic fails as soon as someone else states that he/she grew up with both and the 2600 controllers (paddles) gave him/her higher scores because they feel better precision.  Why are your personal high scores more relevant than anyone else's?  I know for a fact that once I got my modded 5200 paddle controllers that I got much higher scores on both Super Breakout and Kaboom!, how does that affect your personal experience?  It doesn't.  Nobody cares about your (or my) best scores, the subject is "5200 and the arcade experience".  Bringing up tangents to that subject line doesn't change the meaning of that subject line.

 

The arcade experience is fact, just go into an arcade (if you can find one) or an arcade expo (California Extreme is fantastic).  All those arcade cabinets?  That is the arcade experience (I know "arcade experience" also involves tokens and quarters and '80s music and cigarettes and the rest, that's not relevant here, only gameplay and function).  So, using grade-school reading comprehension, "5200 and the arcade experience" is obviously a comparison between the two, as explained initially by the OP -

 

Last Saturday I took a walk to Barcade in my neighborhood (its a bar with dozens of 70's, 80's, 90's arcade machines). I played Pac Man, Defender, Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, Galaxian, Centipede, Jungle Hunt, Joust and Pole Position.

 

The next day, Sunday, I played these exact same games on my 5200 at home. 

 

In some instances the 5200 port of the games were exact arcade clones or near perfect. 

 

What amazes me is how overlooked the 5200 was, at the time, of literally bringing an actual arcade experience home.

 

You see the two lines I bolded?  That is the discussion here, how near-perfect to perfect various 5200 arcade ports are.  Then, later, someone mentioned the poor decision of including Super Breakout as the pack-in game and it's inappropriate controllers.  Inappropriate, why?  Read those 2 lines again.  The discussion then becomes how close any particular 5200 arcade port is and why it might not be perfect.  That usually boils down to the controllers, the game logic or even horizontal screen (TV) vs vertical screen (some arcade games).

 

You know what isn't in that initial statement?  How your personal high scores relate or are important to the 5200 and the arcade experience.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

5200 Super Breakout was made for the analog sticks and 5200 track ball which are both exclusive 5200 controls for the 5200. 

 

Yes, and they're not paddles, which is what the arcade original was designed for.  So, close but not exact (like the OP commented about) arcade experience.  Simple.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

So the 5200 controllers are "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. We might as well call all kinds of controllers "bad" (i.e., intellivision, etc) because they are the "wrong controller." Your logic is flawed.

 

No, that's you not understanding simple English.  The 5200 controllers are "bad" when considering the arcade experience (the original Super Breakout and its paddle controller) for arcade games that didn't use analog joysticks (the Trak-ball controller is fantastic for arcade ports that use trak-balls).  All home console controllers that aren't the same as the original arcade controllers are various levels of "bad" the further away they get from the arcade originals when used with the home ports (even if some players can get higher scores with the wrong controllers).  Some don't really matter that much, like joysticks instead of buttons (Asteroids) though they're still wrong, others matter a lot (digital joystick instead of trak-ball for 2600 Missile Command) and are terrible.  5200 analog joysticks are kind of in the middle of that range - the analog part is good, both use potentiometers to detect movement, but the stick is worse than the paddle dial for hand control.  About equal to how "bad" a Tempest spinner (arcade conversion) is for Major Havoc (roller).  Again, it doesn't matter how much you prefer the joystick for your meaningless to everyone but yourself high scores.  You know why?  Because you ignore other players who get higher scores using paddles instead of analog joysticks when they're playing Super Breakout (or variants like 2600 Breakout).

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

Again, I'm not debating about the controllers giving us the exact arcade experience. You said the controllers were "bad" for Super Breakout. You also said it was bad because they are the wrong controllers. lol It's all your opinion.

 

Maybe you're not debating that, but that's part of what this thread is discussing.  Deal with it.  Anything other than the right controller (paddle) for a home port of Super Breakout is wrong.  lol  It's all fact.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

So now you swearing. Go back to my posts. I'm talking about 5200 controls. People like you just say the controllers are "bad" and "wrong" when I see them differently. 

 

Nobody cares how you (or I) see them, it's how well they reproduce the arcade experience (the subject line you love to ignore).  Analog joysticks ain't paddles.  They're better than digital joysticks, ok, but that only gets the experience closer, not exact.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, phuzaxeman said:

Yes, there is such a thing. I don't even need to explain this one.

 

Ya, you do, because other people agree that the paddle is best for playing Super Breakout.  I don't even need to explain this one.  Except to you.

Edited June 28, 2023 by ledzep

[ledzep]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:10 PM, Stephen said:

It is not "better or worse".  It is "different".  Therefore, different from the arcade experience, means NOT the arcade experience.  The thread title is "5200 and the arcade experience".  You don't replicate the arcade experience of a sit down Star Wars arcade cabinet by sitting at a small open cocktail machine.  Is one better or worse?  No.  Are they different, yes.  This is a very simple concept.

 

Now you bring up Star Wars?@!?  Hahaha, couldn't resist.

 

At least the 5200 version has an analog joystick with 2 fire buttons, that gets it a lot closer to arcade Star Wars than any other home console but the Vectrex.  But it's the wrong controller compared to a yoke.  Then again, where are you going to find a yoke home console controller...

 

Wait a minute -

 

https://thunderstickstudio.com/products/grs-flight-yoke

 

https://www.buystuffarcades.com/products/grs-yoke-mount

 

That looks like you're one 5200 controller cord wiring away from a decent arcade experience on the 5200.

 

 

Based on this review (and what I remember playing it), seems like the 5200 has the wrong controller for matching the looks.  What?!  Excuse me, "bad" controller.  But I'm tempted to get that flight yoke (for trying out on the 5200 but more for a MAME controller) since it's the (relatively) cheapest option I've seen ($199, damn) for something rugged and true to the arcade.  There's another version that's an exact copy but with improvements (aluminum gears, better fire buttons), but that thing's like $400, more suited for an arcade cabinet replacement.

[BIGHMW]

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

Now you bring up Star Wars?@!?  Hahaha, couldn't resist.

 

At least the 5200 version has an analog joystick with 2 fire buttons, that gets it a lot closer to arcade Star Wars than any other home console but the Vectrex.  But it's the wrong controller compared to a yoke.  Then again, where are you going to find a yoke home console controller...

 

Wait a minute -

 

https://thunderstickstudio.com/products/grs-flight-yoke

 

https://www.buystuffarcades.com/products/grs-yoke-mount

 

That looks like you're one 5200 controller cord wiring away from a decent arcade experience on the 5200.

 

 

Based on this review (and what I remember playing it), seems like the 5200 has the wrong controller for matching the looks.  What?!  Excuse me, "bad" controller.  But I'm tempted to get that flight yoke (for trying out on the 5200 but more for a MAME controller) since it's the (relatively) cheapest option I've seen ($199, damn) for something rugged and true to the arcade.  There's another version that's an exact copy but with improvements (aluminum gears, better fire buttons), but that thing's like $400, more suited for an arcade cabinet replacement.

Nice! Now, that makes me wonder if maybe, just maybe it'll work with the CX53 trak-ball too, where rolling the ball up would make the ship go down and vice versa, much like the trak-ball version ROM of Tempest I have where rolling the ball to the right makes the ship go clockwise and moving it left makes it go counterclockwise, I'll make a report on it, and, yes, this too, is why the 5200 is a superior gaming machine over the more-powerful XEGS, you don't get THIS kind of controllability with an 8-bit computer.

 

We have true paddle controllers for the 5200 if you did pick up (0711spiele.de) Ralf Puckner's ProPaddle2 5200 paddle controller, in which I reviewed on my Ray Jackson YouTube channel, it also, has twin fire buttons, and there's also the Retro-Game-Boyz 5200 controller in which has twin pots which can also act as paddle controllers on her. We also have both 2600/Sega and 7800 digital sticks available if you get the Masterplay or the 2600/Sega or 7800 versions of Redemption 5200 now being made again as well, and of course, the legendary CX53 trak-ball, and, hopefully soon, someone will make an adapter to let us bring the yoke controller Star Wars CRAVES for the 5200, to work alongside the 5200's S/P/R and keypad buttons too!!! 

[+x=usr(1536)]

38 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

Nice! Now, that makes me wonder if maybe, just maybe it'll work with the CX53 trak-ball too, where rolling the ball up would make the ship go down and vice versa, much like the trak-ball version ROM of Tempest I have where rolling the ball to the right makes the ship go clockwise and moving it left makes it go counterclockwise, I'll make a report on it, and, yes, this too, is why the 5200 is a superior gaming machine over the more-powerful XEGS, you don't get THIS kind of controllability with an 8-bit computer.

Just think: you could also have the ship in Gyruss go the opposite way to how the trak-ball is moved!  Wouldn't that be cool?