5200 and the arcade experience

[Flyindrew]

Playing "catch up" with all these posts about the 5200 Super Breakout joystick/paddle issue.

 

To clarify, Im one of those people who in general loves the standard 5200 controller. 

 

The Super Breakout point I made isnt directed solely at the 5200 controller, but other controllers and systems in general (from Flashbacks, to current gen consoles XBox, PS5,Switch to the new Atari VCS), that the control in Super Breakout for me just doesnt feel "natural" without and authentic paddle controller with some controllers just being awful. The 5200 controller for me is Super Breakout is ok, I just prefer the paddle more.

 

If you like the 5200 controller for Super Breakout, enjoy it in good health. Your not wrong at all if thats the way you enjoy the game.

[phuzaxeman]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:

 

Nobody is disputing which is better, arcade vs 5200 (I love them both). 

I'm quoting what you said in that "nothing is better than the arcade" which is an opinion. You're contradicting yourself. 

On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:

 

 

 I know for a fact that once I got my modded 5200 paddle controllers that I got much higher scores on both Super Breakout and Kaboom!, how does that affect your personal experience?  It doesn't.  Nobody cares about your (or my) best scores, the subject is "5200 and the arcade experience".  

Again, that is your experience. Good for you.  I'm not disputing that. I grew up on both 2600 paddles and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores on Breakout because they feel better precision for me.

 

To say that "The 2600 had even better precision" applies to you. To say the paddles on the 5200 applies to you.  That's not my experience. My original comment was in response to your comment the 5200 controllers are bad. 

On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:

 

 The 5200 controllers are "bad" when considering the arcade experience...

 

 

Now you say the 5200 controllers are bad when your considering the arcade experience?  Like another posted said, it's different.  It's not bad. You have a weird definition of "bad."

 

You also said the 5200 controllers where "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. With that logic, what could you say about every game on home consoles in the 80's.  Flawed thinking.

 

On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:

 

 Analog joysticks ain't paddles.  They're better than digital joysticks, ok, but that only gets the experience closer, not exact.

 

When did I say the analog sticks are paddles? Why are you even bringing up digital sticks?

 

If I like the 5200 sticks for Super Breakout and they are more precise than the paddles, that's my opinion. I don't care what you think. 

 

You said, "there is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it?" I completely disagree and many would disagree too.  It's different. Everyone has their own tastes in controls and if I prefer the 5200 sticks for Super Breakout, that's my choice.

Edited June 29, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[phuzaxeman]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:08 AM, ledzep said:

 

A simple rule for me is the arcade game (whatever game you choose) has the best/correct controls because that's what it was born with and was designed for.  

 

 

With this logic, you can say 5200 Super Breakout (which is a different version than the arcade or any version in its time) has the best controls using the analog sticks because that is what this version was born with and designed for. 

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I'm quoting what you said in that "nothing is better than the arcade" which is an opinion. You're contradicting yourself. 

 

No, you are failing to comprehend the conversation.  The subject of this thread (which you need to be repeatedly reminded of) is "5200 and the arcade experience", so every comment within this thread is based off that.  I see that you completely ignored the OP's statement that I requoted, which you would need to do to continue down this line of argument.  But, to restate, nothing is better than the arcade standard in terms of the 5200 and the arcade experience.  Get it?  This is a discussion about comparing the 5200 arcade ports to the arcade originals like the OP first brought up.

 

Not contradicting myself, stating a fact.  I bet you didn't even read the OP's first post in this thread.

 

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again, that is your experience. Good for you.  I grew up on both and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores because they feel better precision for me.  To say that "The 2600 had even better precision" is applies to you.  That's not my experience. My original comment was in response to your comment the 5200 controllers are bad. 

 

"And the arcade experience", which you never experienced (you never played Super Breakout in the arcade so how would you know what to compare to).  For Super Breakout, that means paddle, that is by default better precision than any alternative controller for that game as designed for the arcade.  That's not to say that you couldn't find a controller that's better for you, but nobody cares, the discussion is not about what controllers phuzaxeman gets the highest scores with, it's about the 5200 and the arcade experience, and the "arcade experience" includes the arcade ports' game logic and graphics and... controllers.  Yes.

 

Your original comment was in response to my comment the 5200 controllers are bad for the Super Breakout arcade experience which was a response to an earlier post about the 5200 analog joysticks compared to paddles.  You need to start from the first mentions of Super Breakout as a pack-in game to actually understand this tangent, which you are refusing to do, instead you are insisting that your personal preferences and high scores are relevant to comparing the 5200 to the arcade experience.  They ain't.

 

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Now you say the 5200 controllers are bad when your considering the arcade experience?  Like another posted said, it's different.  It's not bad.

 

Not "now", that was always my position because, unlike you, I was talking in terms of the original subject line.  All my comments are confined within the subject of the 5200 and the arcade experience, not my own preferences or how well phuzaxeman plays an arcade port with the wrong controller.  Yes, the analog controller is different than a paddle and not bad, but compared to the arcade experience (remember that subject line?) any controller other than a paddle (which is what arcade Super Breakout was designed with) is various degrees of wrong, with a spinner being the closest to a paddle, when playing a home console port of Super Breakout.

 

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

You also said the 5200 controllers where "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. With that logic, what could you say about every game on home consoles in the 80's.  Flawed thinking.

 

Ooh, now you're getting it, so close.  When comparing a home console to the arcade experience, meaning arcade ports, any games that are using the wrong controller scheme (digital vs. analog, trak-ball vs. spinner, whatever) are using a "bad" controller.  You cannot claim to replicate the arcade experience with a home port if you have significantly changed how the port plays.  Any incorrect controller is "bad" for the arcade experience.  How bad depends on how different the home console controller is to the arcade standard for that game.  So in this instance (Super Breakout), arcade paddle to paddle, great.  Arcade paddle to spinner, pretty good.  Arcade paddle to alternate analog controller (analog joystick or trak-ball), bad.  How bad?  Depends on the implementation.  Arcade paddle to alternate digital controller (digital joystick, buttons), terrible.  Correct thinking, all the comparisons are based off the arcade original standard for the arcade game being ported.  Always.

 

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

When did I say the analog sticks are paddles? If I like the 5200 sticks for Super Breakout and they are more precise than the paddles, that's my opinion. I don't care what you think. 

 

You never said analog sticks were paddles, I said they weren't, because I was comparing them to the arcade experience, which is the arcade version of Super Breakout, which uses paddles (read the thread subject line if you are still confused).  So comparing the 5200 controllers to what the arcade game came with for this particular port, Super Breakout, answers all your questions about "why".

 

Again, what you like is your own preference.  That's a separate thread.  You can start a new one about which home console controllers allow phuzaxeman to get the highest scores and he doesn't care what anyone else says or thinks, but that ain't this thread.

 

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

You said, "there is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it?" I completely disagree and many would disagree too.  It's different. Everyone has their own tastes in controls and I the 5200 sticks are better for me. Get off your high horse with your one way thinking. 

 

Not a high horse, simple fact when comparing original arcade controllers to whatever the 5200 offers when discussing, wait for it... the 5200 and the arcade experience.  Maybe bold will help you comprehend that sentence better?  One can only hope.  Whatever controller(s) the arcade game original came with is by default the best controller for that game.  Asteroids?  buttons.  Robotron?  Twin digital joysticks.  Red Baron?  Analog joystick and fire button.  Centipede?  Trak-ball and fire button.  Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator?  Spinner and 3 buttons.  Super Breakout?  paddle and button.  No getting around that, it's fact, your opinion doesn't matter.

 

When porting Super Breakout to a home console the hope is that the home console has the same kind of controller in order to get, wait for it... the arcade experience.  So, the 2600 has paddles, yay!  The 5200 does not, though converting an analog joystick to a paddle is apparently pretty straightforward.  The Trak-ball also isn't a paddle, probably worse than an analog joystick but maybe some people like it better.

 

I know this will confuse the shit out of you but I can't help it.  Consider the 2600 home port of Midway's only vector game, Omega Race.  Here's the arcade original control panel -

 

 

Now, to be the best home port of this game the home console would need a spinner controller with 2 buttons (I played Omega Race in the arcades so I know).  I don't know of any home console that has that set-up except maybe a modded Playstation or Jaguar but you, with your religious adherence to thinking that arcade controls don't matter when comparing to, wait for it... the arcade experience, probably would insist that any 5200 port would be best with an analog stick, anyway.

 

But CBS Electronics, thank Odin, don't think like you.  For the 2600 they released the game with their own pack-in Booster Controller.

 

 

Holy shit, such an effort to try to get closer to arcade Omega Race, now you have direction and 2 buttons.  Still not the right controller, but closer than just a 1-button digital joystick.  I'm sure you would have argued day and night with the CBS guys that they shouldn't bother, the original 2600 controllers are all that are required but, thankfully for the rest of us, they made the attempt.  I wish more software companies would try, no matter how much phuzaxeman resists or scores better with the stock controllers.

 

Extra credit question for you that you will get wrong, I'm sure - what would be the best stock 2600 controller to combine with a hypothetical CBS pack-in controller-addon for Omega Race that would give the 2600 a controller scheme closer to, wait for it... the arcade experience?

Edited June 29, 2023 by ledzep

[ledzep]

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

With this logic, you can say 5200 Super Breakout (which is a different version than the arcade or any version in its time) has the best controls using the analog sticks because that is what this version was born with and designed for. 

 

When discussing only 5200 games and nothing else, sure.  When discussing the 5200 and the arcade experience, no.  Nice try, though.

 

I'm starting to think you don't understand the concept of "arcade experience" as laid out in the OP's original post.  Further, you might be incapable of comparing the 5200 to the arcade experience?  Or don't understand what an arcade port is supposed to be?

[phuzaxeman]

28 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

When discussing only 5200 games and nothing else, sure.  When discussing the 5200 and the arcade experience, no.  Nice try, though.

I never compared the 5200 Super Breakout to the arcade because in that time, I never had played the arcade. I played the arcade when I was older.

28 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

I'm starting to think you don't understand the concept of "arcade experience" as laid out in the OP's original post.

My first comment regarding your initial post was about the 5200 controls for Super Breakout.  That's it. 

 

Part of why I reply about the 5200 controls subject (not just your posts) is because people just automatically think the controls are bad and don't work. It's given the 5200 a bad reputation for years.  You see all kinds of YouTube videos dogging the 5200 because of the controls. Yes, the 5200 controls are unreliable but that's been resolved.  And they do work well for Super Breakout. 

[phuzaxeman]

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

No, you are failing to comprehend the conversation.  The subject of this thread (which you need to be repeatedly reminded of) is "5200 and the arcade experience", so every comment within this thread is based off that. 

But my response to you was not about the arcade experience. My response to you was about the 5200 controls for 5200 Super Breakout.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

 

"And the arcade experience", which you never experienced (you never played Super Breakout in the arcade so how would you know what to compare to). 

No, I did experience playing Super Breakout later as an adult.  But not in the 80s. I already mentioned this.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

For Super Breakout, that means paddle, that is by default better precision than any alternative controller for that game as designed for the arcade.  

Super Breakout version on the 5200 was never designed for the paddle because there was not paddle available regardless if the arcade had a paddle.  Those are two different versions. 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

Yes, the analog controller is different than a paddle and not bad, but compared to the arcade experience (remember that subject line?) any controller other than a paddle (which is what arcade Super Breakout was designed with) is various degrees of wrong, with a spinner being the closest to a paddle, when playing a home console port of Super Breakout.

So not only is the 5200 controller "wrong" and "bad", there are various degrees? Interesting rating system....all which is subjective.

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

 

Not a high horse, simple fact when comparing original arcade controllers to whatever the 5200 offers when discussing, wait for it... the 5200 and the arcade experience.  

 

Again, my response was not about in comparison to the 5200 to the arcade in the arcade experience. I'm commenting on the 5200 controls.  Do you not understand? You're allowed to make a comment that is a sub topic from the main topic. 

 

You said the 5200 controls are "wrong" and "bad" for Super Breakout and that is completely your opinion even when compared to the arcade experience.  One can say it's not original or different but to say it's wrong or bad is off. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[ledzep]

5 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I never compared the 5200 Super Breakout to the arcade because in that time, I never had played the arcade. I played the arcade when I was older.

 

So what?  You didn't start this thread, Flyindrew did.  And if you had read his first post that started this thread, you would see that your personal experience never having played a particular arcade game in the arcade doesn't matter.  His post was about comparing arcade games to the same games on the 5200.  If you haven't played a specific game in the arcade ever then you are totally unqualified to talk about how well the 5200 port compares to the arcade version (and how overlooked the 5200 was, at the time, of literally bringing an actual arcade experience home).  Because the 5200 and the arcade experience, you need both halves to participate.

 

The discussion is only a comparison of the 5200 arcade ports to the arcade originals.  Nothing about how you or anyone else scores the highest or what your favorite controllers are.

 

11 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

My first comment regarding your initial post was about the 5200 controls for Super Breakout.  That's it. 

 

Don't be modest when it comes to not comprehending basic sentences, your first comment was also about not understanding that my comment was in reference to how the 5200 analog joystick compares to the arcade Super Breakout paddle in terms of the 5200 and the arcade experience.  You did a bang-up job of ignoring that key element.

 

13 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Part of why I reply about the 5200 controls subject (not just your posts) is because people just automatically think the controls are bad and don't work. It's given the 5200 a bad reputation for years.  You see all kinds of YouTube videos dogging the 5200 because of the controls. Yes, the 5200 controls are unreliable but that's been resolved.  And they do work well for Super Breakout. 

 

I agree that many people feel that way about 5200 controllers and they're (to my mind) dead wrong, they're one of my favorites of the various choices for the many home consoles I've played.  I will concede that many people get annoyed that the analog joystick doesn't self-center and the fire buttons are mushy, that makes them less than perfect or optimal (the Vectrex got that righter, hahaha).  But for me it's not enough to slag them or say I can't play 5200 games with them, that's nuts, I played the shit out of the 5200 and had fun even before my friend got the Trak-ball controller (I didn't own a 5200 until years later).

 

I also agree that for you (and probably many other 5200 fans) the analog joystick is fine for playing Super Breakout and other 5200 arcade ports of arcade games that were designed other controllers.  That's a discussion for another thread (you should probably start it), something like "How much do you like the stock 5200 controllers for playing the various 5200 games?"

 

For me the analog stick is marginal for playing paddle games like Super Breakout and Kaboom!, it doesn't have as good of control or accuracy.  I know this because I have 2 analog joysticks modded to be paddles and I've played both those games with both controllers, the paddle easily wins out and I'm pretty good with 5200 joysticks for playing 5200 games.

 

But your preference and my preference has got nothing to do with comparing the 5200 and the arcade experience.  Once the subject includes how close the 5200 versions come to the arcade originals, the arcade originals must be accepted as the standard to which the 5200 versions try to get close to.  How close depends on the programming and the controls.

[phuzaxeman]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:

All home console controllers that aren't the same as the original arcade controllers are various levels of "bad" the further away they get from the arcade originals when used with the home ports (even if some players can get higher scores with the wrong controllers). 

There were no console controllers that were the same as the original arcade. It doesn't mean they are bad, it means they are different. This "various levels" assessment you have created is completely subjective. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[phuzaxeman]

3 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

If you haven't played a specific game in the arcade ever then you are totally unqualified to talk about how well the 5200 port compares to the arcade version...

So now I'm not qualified to talk? lol. Are you moderator? lol

3 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

For me the analog stick is marginal for playing paddle games like Super Breakout and Kaboom!, it doesn't have as good of control or accuracy.  I know this because I have 2 analog joysticks modded to be paddles and I've played both those games with both controllers, the paddle easily wins out and I'm pretty good with 5200 joysticks for playing 5200 games.

I had the stick to paddle conversion I bought from someone a long time ago. It was good, but it felt unnatural. I ultimately resold it. Like you are an arcade purist, I am an atari 5200 purist. The 5200 Super Breakout was like you said "born" and "created" with the analog sticks. 

 

[ledzep]

18 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

But my response to you was not about the arcade experience. My response to you was about the 5200 controls for 5200 Super Breakout.

 

If you want to talk about things outside the scope of the thread's subject line I can't stop you.  But whenever you're replying to one of my responses remember that I'm still (to the best of my ability) sticking within the original parameters of the thread's subject.  Which is about the 5200 and the arcade experience, as stated in the OP's original post -

 

Last Saturday I took a walk to Barcade in my neighborhood (its a bar with dozens of 70's, 80's, 90's arcade machines). I played Pac Man, Defender, Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, Galaxian, Centipede, Jungle Hunt, Joust and Pole Position.

 

The next day, Sunday, I played these exact same games on my 5200 at home. 

 

In some instances the 5200 port of the games were exact arcade clones or near perfect. 

 

What amazes me is how overlooked the 5200 was, at the time, of literally bringing an actual arcade experience home.

 

So my comments about the 5200 controls are in relation to the 5200 and the arcade experience.  However good or bad they are on their own doesn't matter in this thread, only how well they help the 5200 achieve a perfect or near perfect arcade experience depending on the arcade port in question.  The 5200 analog joystick is a really good controller.  It's marginal as a paddle, though.  Which makes it marginal for bringing an actual arcade experience home for paddle games like Super Breakout.

 

27 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

No, I did experience playing Super Breakout later as an adult.  But not in the 80s. I already mentioned this.

 

Ah, I stand corrected.  So then there's no excuse for you to not understand what is meant by trying to replicate the arcade experience with a home console version.

 

29 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Super Breakout version on the 5200 was never designed for the paddle because there was not paddle available regardless if the arcade had a paddle.  Those are two different versions. 

 

You're not thinking like an engineer (and you need to for this thread).  The 5200 was designed for analog inputs (and buttons).  From its point of view it doesn't care how that is achieved, only that it expects analog signals on certain pins.  What can supply those signals?  An analog joystick using 2 potentiometers to provide horizontal and vertical signals, a trak-ball converted to output analog signals (internally it's converting gray code into analog joystick signals from what I remember, an abomination to some, hahaahahaa), or anything else.  Like a paddle using a potentiometer.  The 5200 isn't aware of what controllers were available when and doesn't care, it will read any analog signals within the correct range on the correct pins (sending those signals to the fire button pins will gain you nothing) and the software will use that for whatever it needs, including converting analog signal ranges to single values to simulate digital joysticks.

 

So get it straight, 5200 Super Breakout was designed for analog inputs, how those are provided or converted is up to the controller plugged into the controller ports.  If the controller outputs correct analog signals, the 5200 was designed for it.  Paddles, ta-da!  They fit the required analog input specs.

 

Now, the arcade original Super Breakout was designed for the paddle control scheme (a dial that can be rotated within a fixed range).  So, since we're still in the thread's subject of the 5200 and the arcade experience, any home port's input control scheme must be compared to the original in terms of how well the 5200 brings an actual arcade experience home.  So, 5200 Super Breakout.  Analog joystick?  Not bad but not right.  Trak-ball?  Not bad but maybe worse?  Paddle?  Bingo, perfect translation as you're gonna get.  All three of them output analog signals for movement, all three have unique control schemes.  The 5200 doesn't know or care.  People who compare them to the arcade originals do care.

 

48 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

So not only is the 5200 controller "wrong" and "bad", there are various degrees? Interesting rating system....all which is subjective.

 

Yes, of course, various degrees from the original.  Wait, are you saying you're incapable of comparing various similar but not identical things to an original design?  That's a problem.

 

50 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again, my response was not about in comparison to the 5200 to the arcade in the arcade experience. I'm commenting on the 5200 controls.  Do you not understand? You're allowed to make a comment that is a sub topic from the main topic. 

 

Sure, comment on whatever you like.  But you were responding to one of my posts, yes?  My post was talking about an aspect of the 5200 and the arcade experience, to wit, the 5200 analog joystick compared to the original arcade version's paddle control.  Ignore at your own circular reasoning peril.

 

I understand that you want to change the thread's subject to something else for whatever reason.  I don't care, I'm sticking as best I can (occasional joke aside) to the thread's subject line in deference to the OP.  You should try it.

 

In fact, I'm curious if you can do that.  Can you evaluate a home arcade port compared to the arcade original that inspired it in terms of how perfectly or near perfectly it brings an actual arcade experience home?  Yes or no?  Can't wait for you to pretend I never asked this.

 

56 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

You said the 5200 controls are "wrong" and "bad" for Super Breakout and that is completely your opinion even when compared to the arcade experience.  One can say it's not original or different but to say it's wrong or bad is off. 

 

Wrong control scheme = wrong in terms of home arcade ports with established control schemes, live with it.  How wrong is up to the individual player in terms of enjoyment but anything other than a paddle (like the arcade original) is not a paddle which = wrong for a home port of an arcade game that was designed with a paddle.  Completely fact.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

 

 

[ledzep]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

There were no console controllers that were the same as the original arcade. It doesn't mean they are bad, it means they are different. This "various levels" assessment you have created is completely subjective.

 

Sure there are.  The Starplex is a 5 button controller for the 2600 (or other 9-pin home consoles) that is the same as many arcade games (Asteroids, Rip-Off, Space Invaders).  Not dimensionally identical, no, only an arcade control panel would satisfy that requirement.  A paddle controller is the same as any paddle in an arcade game (Super Breakout, Pong).  A digital joystick is the same as any digital joystick in an arcade game (Pac-Man, Rally-X, Xevious).  Yes, you can argue the differences between 8-way, 4-way and 2-way sticks but in terms of input signals and control scheme they're as close as you can get.  An analog joystick is the same as any analog joystick in an arcade game (Red Baron, Tailgunner) and pretty darn close to a 49-way joystick (I'm not aware of any 49-way joystick for home console use nor any home console that is designed to read one).  A trak-ball is the same as any trak-ball in an arcade game (Centipede, Missile Command).  Etc., nothing is perfect but there are plenty of controllers that are the same mechanisms (potentiometer, digital switch, reluctor wheel) and control schemes (joystick handle, paddle/spinner dial, trak-ball... ball, buttons) compared to the arcade originals.

 

Nothing subjective there, that's basic design engineering - input to input, control scheme to control scheme.  Of course you can quibble about how well the home console controller compares to the arcade version, does the home trak-ball spin as freely as the arcade version, does the home paddle have the same sweep area as the arcade version, are the fire buttons as responsive, etc.  If you want to be an asshole about it you can insist that the only way to truly bring the actual arcade experience home is to set the home console and TV up high so that you have to play while standing up and the game controllers have to be locked into a control panel so that players can't hold them in their hands, etc.  No reasonable person would go that far.

 

Game logic, graphics and controllers (and, to a lesser extent, sound), those are the criteria for comparison with the arcade originals.

 

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

So now I'm not qualified to talk? lol. Are you moderator? lol

 

Goddamn, are you completely incapable of understanding complete sentences?  I didn't say you are not qualified to talk, anyone with a 4th-grade command of English could understand that, I said "If you haven't played a specific game in the arcade ever then you are totally unqualified to talk about how well the 5200 port compares to the arcade version."  Now of course you have pointed out that you did play Super Breakout in the arcade, only much later, so you are qualified to talk about the differences and similarities between the two.

 

On the assumption that you're trolling, try harder.

 

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

I had the stick to paddle conversion I bought from someone a long time ago. It was good, but it felt unnatural. I ultimately resold it. Like you are an arcade purist, I am an atari 5200 purist. The 5200 Super Breakout was like you said "born" and "created" with the analog sticks. 

 

Ok, so you're arguing 2 different things.  For you the converted paddle feels unnatural.  I can buy that, depending on how it was put together it might not react like a 2600 paddle or the arcade paddle.  And you might simply be too used to the analog stick, you're not interested in using anything else to play 5200 games.  Nobody's arguing that except you.

 

I'm an arcade purist and a 5200 purist.  Love them both.  I'm also a 2600 purist and an 800 computer purist, oh shit!  And a Vectrex purist.  But I am also capable of comparing within and across those various platforms.  For example, Star Raiders, far as I know, was programmed for the 8-bit computers first.  That means 8-way digital stick and keyboard (for the various ship functions).  The 5200 version, though, was programmed for the analog joystick.  That means analog joystick and keypad (for the various ship functions).  The 800 version is the original.  I much prefer the 5200 version in terms of ship control, the analog joystick is closer to a flight yoke than a digital joystick, feels more correct.  But if this thread was about the 5200 and the 800 Computer experience, guess what my conclusion would be?  Come on, guess.

 

I didn't say the 5200 was "born" and "created" with the analog sticks, I said it was designed to accept analog inputs on certain pins.  It happens to have been sold with the analog sticks.  It could have come with paddles, too, apparently that was in the works at Atari at some point, imagine how you would be arguing if that happened.

[phuzaxeman]

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

The 5200 analog joystick is a really good controller.  It's marginal as a paddle, though.  Which makes it marginal for bringing an actual arcade experience home for paddle games like Super Breakout.

You are again contradicting yourself.  On one hand you're saying the 5200 controllers is the "wrong" controller and the 5200 controller is "bad" in comparison to the original arcade Super Breakout. But then you now say the controller is a really good controller. 

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 

Ah, I stand corrected.  So then there's no excuse for you to not understand what is meant by trying to replicate the arcade experience with a home console version.

I understand what you're saying. But there wasn't any console that could replicate Super Breakout as the same arcade experience not even the 2600 paddles could do that.

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 

You're not thinking like an engineer (and you need to for this thread).  The 5200 was designed for analog inputs (and buttons).  From its point of view it doesn't care how that is achieved, only that it expects analog signals on certain pins.  What can supply those signals?  An analog joystick using 2 potentiometers to provide horizontal and vertical signals, a trak-ball converted to output analog signals (internally it's converting gray code into analog joystick signals from what I remember, an abomination to some, hahaahahaa), or anything else.  Like a paddle using a potentiometer.  The 5200 isn't aware of what controllers were available when and doesn't care, it will read any analog signals within the correct range on the correct pins (sending those signals to the fire button pins will gain you nothing) and the software will use that for whatever it needs, including converting analog signal ranges to single values to simulate digital joysticks.

You don't need to think like an engineer to understand that the 5200 sticks are accurate and work well for Super Breakout. That's all that matters to me. That it worked.  In worked great in 82 just like it works great in 2023.  If you want to dive into another discussion about the engineering with other engineers, that's fine with me.  I'm not going to pretend I understand the engineering behind the 5200 sticks.  The engineering I know is that I rebuilt my sticks and they have lasted over 12+ years. 

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

So get it straight, 5200 Super Breakout was designed for analog inputs, how those are provided or converted is up to the controller plugged into the controller ports.  If the controller outputs correct analog signals, the 5200 was designed for it.  Paddles, ta-da!  They fit the required analog input specs.

Here's the thing, this version (5200 Breakout) was created to work with the analog sticks. Countermeasure and Real Sports baseball and other games were also created with the 5200 controller.  

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

Analog joystick?  Not bad but not right.  Trak-ball?  Not bad but maybe worse?  Paddle?  Bingo, perfect translation as you're gonna get.  

This is where we are going in circles. You also contradict yourself.  You said the controller was "bad." Now it's "not bad but not right." You can say that it's not the exact one like the arcade. What's right for me maybe not right for you.

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

I understand that you want to change the thread's subject to something else for whatever reason.  I don't care, I'm sticking as best I can (occasional joke aside) to the thread's subject line in deference to the OP.  You should try it.

I'm not changing the thread's subject. You originally said, that "Breakout is supposed to be played with a paddle."  My original point is I disagree with that statement. That's what you think.  That's your opinion. 5200 Super Breakout was designed for the analog sticks even if the original arcade version used a paddle. 

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

In fact, I'm curious if you can do that.  Can you evaluate a home arcade port compared to the arcade original that inspired it in terms of how perfectly or near perfectly it brings an actual arcade experience home?  Yes or no?  Can't wait for you to pretend I never asked this.

Again you're not understanding my point. My point was never about the arcade experience but about your 5200 controls for Super Breakout comment. What Atari did in 1982 was pretty amazing because you had a controller that could play both paddle games and standard. Intellivision or Colecovision and the 2600 couldn't do that. 

54 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Wrong control scheme = wrong in terms of home arcade ports with established control schemes, live with it.  

Like what another person said (and I'm repeating myself), the 5200 controllers isn't the wrong scheme. It's just different. 

 

Case in point, when Street Fighter 2 came out on the SNES, it was an amazing game that was ported to play at home.  People weren't complaining it was the wrong controller.  It was different from the arcade.  People learned the new controls. Today, people are playing newer versions on ps or xbox controller at home. 

[+Stephen]

OK - I must admit.  This is absolutely more hilarious than the Monty Python skit:
Are you the "People's Front of Judea?"
"F**K You.  We're the Judean People's Front.  F**king People's Front of Judea".

 

It's a fun game, we twiddle our knobs, we have fun.  Explosions happen.  Can't we all get along?

[BIGHMW]

I'm staying out of this one.

[Razzie.P]

19 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

I'm staying out of this one.

Missed opportunity, dude.  You should do a "Special Update from Atari Report" video covering "Epic Pissing Contest Breaks Out on AtariAge."

 

I'll get ya started on the script....  Thousands of words were written today basically saying little more than "I know you are but what am I" on constant repeat.

 

[Cebus Capucinis]

57 minutes ago, Stephen said:

we twiddle our knobs

Hey, another DAYS MINUTES SINCE counter!

[ledzep]

2 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

You are again contradicting yourself.  On one hand you're saying the 5200 controllers is the "wrong" controller and the 5200 controller is "bad" in comparison to the original arcade Super Breakout. But then you now say the controller is a really good controller. 

 

Naw, no contradiction there.  The 5200 analog joystick is a really good controller, it compares well with the Vectrex analog joystick (though the Vectrex has the advantage of self-centering) and various old PC analog sticks in terms of movement and precision.  But it is a marginal controller for paddle games due to the physical control (stick vs. dial).  Not hard to understand.

 

5 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I understand what you're saying. But there wasn't any console that could replicate Super Breakout as the same arcade experience not even the 2600 paddles could do that.

 

Maybe not for you because you seem to insist on literal sameness, but the 2600 paddle and the arcade paddle are both potentiometers with dials on top to move left and right.  I can believe that the arcade potentiometer is more robust or has a better sweep range or something, but paddle = paddle, the 2600 is the closest to the arcade experience for Breakout games.  Remember the OP's original comments ("near perfect").

 

8 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

You don't need to think like an engineer to understand that the 5200 sticks are accurate and work well for Super Breakout. That's all that matters to me. That it worked.  In worked great in 82 just like it works great in 2023.  If you want to dive into another discussion about the engineering with other engineers, that's fine with me.  I'm not going to pretend I understand the engineering behind the 5200 sticks.  The engineering I know is that I rebuilt my sticks and they have lasted over 12+ years. 

 

You do need to think like an engineer when explaining or comparing various input schemes for game controllers and consoles in order to discuss, wait for it... the 5200 and the arcade experience.  No getting around it, it also helps if you ever decide to program a game for one of them, to understand what the controller signals are.

 

What were inside those sticks?  2 what?  Potentiometers?  Why is that significant in terms of this thread?

 

12 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Here's the thing, this version (5200 Breakout) was created to work with the analog sticks. Countermeasure and Real Sports baseball and other games were also created with the 5200 controller.  

 

Nope, merely to work with analog inputs.  The 5200 doesn't care how you supply them, only that they are sent on certain pins.  If you switch the pins on the analog controller so that the analog inputs are now going to the wrong pins, do you think the 5200 will still operate correctly and Super Breakout will still react the same way to how you are moving the joystick?  But but, it's the same analog joystick and it's plugged in!  The 5200 doesn't care, it requires the analog signals to be on certain pins or the game won't read your movements correctly.  You still have the same joystick, you no longer are outputting the analog movement signals on the correct pins.  Guess which matters more.

 

16 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

This is where we are going in circles. You also contradict yourself.  You said the controller was "bad." Now it's "not bad but not right." You can say that it's not the exact one like the arcade. What's right for me maybe not right for you.

 

I've been as consistent about my position on these controllers as you've been on misunderstanding whatever I write.  Right for you (or me) is one thing, right in terms of the arcade experience (which requires a paddle) is another thing.  This thread is dealing with the latter.

 

4 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I'm not changing the thread's subject. You originally said, that "Breakout is supposed to be played with a paddle."  My original point is I disagree with that statement. That's what you think.  That's your opinion. 5200 Super Breakout was designed for the analog sticks even if the original arcade version used a paddle. 

 

You claim that you're not changing the thread's subject and then immediately change the thread's subject.  In terms of the 5200 and the arcade experience, the 5200 version of Super Breakout needs to get as close to exactly the same as the arcade original.  That means that Breakout is supposed to be played with a paddle.  By the way, Super Breakout is the sequel to Breakout, another arcade game.  It, too, uses a paddle.  And, thankfully, the 2600 got that arcade port right in terms of graphics and controller, a near perfect arcade experience.

 

5200 Super Breakout was designed for analog inputs.  That means any controller that provides the correct signals will do, it doesn't care.

 

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Again you're not understanding my point. My point was never about the arcade experience but about your 5200 controls for Super Breakout comment. What Atari did in 1982 was pretty amazing because you had a controller that could play both paddle games and standard. Intellivision or Colecovision and the 2600 couldn't do that. 

 

I understand your point perfectly, you want to change the subject of this thread to focus on what you prefer playing 5200 Super Breakout with.  Your point is to ignore how the 5200 reads controller inputs and instead believe that 5200 Super Breakout is designed for analog joysticks specifically instead of analog inputs in general.

 

Ya, Intellivision controls were miserable for arcade ports (I'm not aware of an arcade game that used a direction disk or whatever that hellish thing is) so every attempt was a compromise.  I don't have any experience with the Colecovision so I can't really comment though based on pics I can see where people might complain about them.

 

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Like what another person said (and I'm repeating myself), the 5200 controllers isn't the wrong scheme. It's just different. 

 

For what you prefer, sure, just different.  For achieving the arcade experience they are the wrong scheme because the arcade original Super Breakout uses a paddle so in order to provide the arcade experience at home a paddle is necessary.

 

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Case in point, when Street Fighter 2 came out on the SNES, it was an amazing game that was ported to play at home.  People weren't complaining it was the wrong controller.  It was different from the arcade.  People learned the new controls. Today, people are playing newer versions on ps or xbox controller at home. 

 

Fair enough, everyone loves Street Fighter 2 on the SNES, that's great.  But if someone were masochistic enough to enter into a discussion with you about the SNES and the arcade experience, meaning how well the arcade Street Fighter 2 was ported to the SNES, what do you think the comments would look like?

 

To paraphrase one of your earlier responses, you're bringing up Street Fighter 2?  Your post is showing you don't know the difference between the arcade and SNES Street Fighter 2.  I kid.  Nice to see that now you embrace the concept of using other arcade game ports to get your point across, now you understand why I brought up Galaxian and Defender and the rest?  Good.  Though I must admit, I think you picked the wrong example to support your point.

 

Looking at the arcade control panel, seems like it needs an 8-way digital joystick and 6 buttons per player?  I'm guessing, I never played the game in the arcade or on the SNES.  The SNES controller looks like it doesn't have enough buttons (ah, it has 2 shoulder buttons, my bad, though that's a shitty layout compared to the arcade), does that goofy + shaped controller pad on the left allow for diagonal moves?  If so, then I guess it's a compromise at best but somewhat close.  Wait a minute, did Capcom design the Pad Soldier to solve that very problem?!

 

I bet you could set this blasphemer straight about saying that there were some arcade games that got moved over to home "but that didn't feel quite right", right?  He's never seen phuzaxeman's high scores with the stock controller!

 

 

Did this fucking guy just mention the "real arcade experience"?  And still wanting a joystick like the arcade version?  Doesn't he know that that doesn't matter, only the home SNES original controller is what the game was designed for?  I agree with him that even with 6 buttons on the front, that thing is probably a carpal tunnel injury waiting to happen, looks painful.  Better to get an aftermarket joystick that more accurately replicates the arcade control scheme -

 

https://www.shacknews.com/cortex/article/66/retro-controller-reviews-super-advantage

 

"In the SNES era, gamers wanting a more authentic arcade experience were offered the Super Advantage, a six button arcade stick made by Asciiware and licensed by Nintendo."

 

Once you explain to these reviewers that all the arcade ports were designed for the SNES controller so, therefore, nobody should complain, they'll understand.

[ledzep]

4 hours ago, Stephen said:

OK - I must admit.  This is absolutely more hilarious than the Monty Python skit:
Are you the "People's Front of Judea?"
"F**K You.  We're the Judean People's Front.  F**king People's Front of Judea".

 

Great movie -

 

 

Splitter!

[BIGHMW]

I know that this is an arcade experience with the 5200 debate but aren't we forgetting that Gorf, Kaboom! AND the iconic classic Missile Command were also programmed with the full analog capabilities of the CX52 in mind?

 

...and another thing, this is what separates the 5200 from pretty much every other gaming console, period. And even though Atari, at that time, had no idea that even though the 5200 did not sell as well as anticipated, there are those of us who (still!) swear by it to this very day, so much to the point in which a once-limited library of 69 officially released titles from 1982-1987 has swollen to hundreds because of the wonderful work of our homebrew community and also the guys who actually took the time to convert many of the A8/XL/XE games to the 5200, and of course, to those who unearthed the unreleased prototypes, many of them completed, and in the case of Keithen Hayenga, who took the time, even 30 years after first starting on it, to complete the iconic Tempest, THE ONE GAME that separates the 5200 from the XEGS and makes Big Sexy my favorite of it had to come down to one or the other, despite both her size and her having only 16K RAM.

 

Arcade experience you want, you will get that and more with the 5200.

 

And if you want digital controls for games like Qix and Pac-Man, do me a favor, stop shit-talking about the CX52 controllers and how the 5200 "sucks" and all that and simply order either a Masterplay from Retro Game Boyz, or, better yet, and yes this is some shameless promotion for the guy who makes them, the Redemption 5200 interface, there are two different models, one that works with 2600 and Sega controllers, and one that works with 7800 controllers. For paddles I happen to own TWO ProPaddle 2 paddle controllers from 0711spiele.de (Ralf Puckner over in Germany) for those 3 games I mentioned at the top

[ledzep]

5 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I know that this is an arcade experience with the 5200 debate but aren't we forgetting that Gorf, Kaboom! AND the iconic classic Missile Command were also programmed with the full analog capabilities of the CX52 in mind?

 

Those are all fun but Gorf is lacking an entire level, yes?  And Missile Command only has 1 missile base in the middle (like the 8-bit and 2600 versions).  So, not bad ports but missing the full arcade experience.  Arcade games ported to the 5200 and its analog sticks should always include the option to play the game "digital", meaning the game only reads the 9 (including center) main positions for the stick and doesn't take into account stick speed.  Then it's up to the consumer to choose which version to play, "true" 8-way digital joystick arcade movement or 5200 analog joystick.

 

5 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

Arcade experience you want, you will get that and more with the 5200.

 

True, considering the limitations of most consoles of the early '80s, I think the 5200 and the Vectrex gave the closest experiences to the arcade.  The 2600 wasn't bad (but poor graphics for many games and only 1 fire button), the Intellivision was miserable (that fucking disk!! & those fire buttons), I never played the Colecovision so I can't really comment there.  I can't recall what arcade ports the Odyssey 2 even had.

 

5 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

And if you want digital controls for games like Qix and Pac-Man, do me a favor, stop shit-talking about the CX52 controllers and how the 5200 "sucks" and all that and simply order either a Masterplay from Retro Game Boyz, or, better yet, and yes this is some shameless promotion for the guy who makes them, the Redemption 5200 interface, there are two different models, one that works with 2600 and Sega controllers, and one that works with 7800 controllers. For paddles I happen to own TWO ProPaddle 2 paddle controllers from 0711spiele.de (Ralf Puckner over in Germany) for those 3 games I mentioned at the top

 

Yes, there are alternatives.  Maybe not officially from Atari but who cares.  The 5200 certainly doesn't care, so long as the controller was made right, it will work, and maybe better than the Atari original.  Although I doubt any alternate trak-ball can hold a candle to the 5200 original.

 

Those ProPaddle 2s look like a great idea, probably feel pretty similar to the 2600 paddles?  I'm good with my two 5200 joysticks modded to be paddles but that is a nice looking alternative.

Edited July 2, 2023 by ledzep

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:23 PM, BIGHMW said:

I'm staying out of this one.

 

8 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I know that this is an arcade experience with the 5200 debate but aren't we forgetting that Gorf, Kaboom! AND the iconic classic Missile Command were also programmed with the full analog capabilities of the CX52 in mind?

 

...and another thing, this is what separates the 5200 from pretty much every other gaming console, period. And even though Atari, at that time, had no idea that even though the 5200 did not sell as well as anticipated, there are those of us who (still!) swear by it to this very day, so much to the point in which a once-limited library of 69 officially released titles from 1982-1987 has swollen to hundreds because of the wonderful work of our homebrew community and also the guys who actually took the time to convert many of the A8/XL/XE games to the 5200, and of course, to those who unearthed the unreleased prototypes, many of them completed, and in the case of Keithen Hayenga, who took the time, even 30 years after first starting on it, to complete the iconic Tempest, THE ONE GAME that separates the 5200 from the XEGS and makes Big Sexy my favorite of it had to come down to one or the other, despite both her size and her having only 16K RAM.

 

Arcade experience you want, you will get that and more with the 5200.

 

And if you want digital controls for games like Qix and Pac-Man, do me a favor, stop shit-talking about the CX52 controllers and how the 5200 "sucks" and all that and simply order either a Masterplay from Retro Game Boyz, or, better yet, and yes this is some shameless promotion for the guy who makes them, the Redemption 5200 interface, there are two different models, one that works with 2600 and Sega controllers, and one that works with 7800 controllers. For paddles I happen to own TWO ProPaddle 2 paddle controllers from 0711spiele.de (Ralf Puckner over in Germany) for those 3 games I mentioned at the top

 

Plz2explain.  I am confuse.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Who cares, the CX52 5200 controllers suck anyway. The console isn't much better, just get an A8.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

Who cares, the CX52 5200 controllers suck anyway. The console isn't much better, just get a C64.

FIFY