Repair, or not repair? That is the question

[malachykidd]

When I decided to pull my Atari computers out of storage, and to expand my collection, I planned that I would purchase at least two of each model: one to use, with whatever repairs and modifications I considered appropriate (with some case modifications to accommodate new ports and such, but without completely destroying the machines); and one to keep as close to stock as possible, with whatever boxes, manuals, accessories, and packaging as I could get.

 

With regard to that second set of machines, how "as close to stock" is appropriate for a collectable computer?  I generally lean toward making whatever repairs are necessary for the system to operate as intended: repairing or replacing the keyboard membranes, replacing defective chips and capacitors, and replacing or repairing (or at least bagging with a DANGER DO NOT USE note-- I'm looking at you, Ingots) defective power supplies.

 

But are such repairs even appropriate for a collectable, especially for a system which may spend another ten or more years in its box?

 

On the one hand, everything deteriorates eventually: paintings, cars, buildings, etc.  What good is a vintage 1950s auto with original everything-- hoses, tires, and all-- if you can't so much as start the engine because all the soft, organic bits will disintegrate immediately?  On the other hand, that auto has all the original bits!

 

As I said, I'm leaning toward making necessary repairs, but I'm curious how the wider community feels about that for the strictly collectable hardware?

[TGB1718]

As long as you stick to "same type replacement" I don't think it really matters that much.

It's only going to be components that aren't "Atari Specific" so as long as you don't replace

any of the main chips with modern replacements I think that's fine.

[Beeblebrox]

Just out of interest what happens if you are replacing - say- the delay line or freddie chip with a modern equivilant should you not be able to source original replacement of these?  Galtron in Poland sells these for example. :)

 

 

[jhd]

6 hours ago, malachykidd said:

On the one hand, everything deteriorates eventually: paintings, cars, buildings, etc.  What good is a vintage 1950s auto with original everything-- hoses, tires, and all-- if you can't so much as start the engine because all the soft, organic bits will disintegrate immediately?  On the other hand, that auto has all the original bits!

 

When I was in high school, I used to read car magazines, with a particular focus on vintage and collector cars.

 

I remember a feature article on this fellow who in the 1960s bought a new car, drove it home from the dealership, and parked it in his garage. There was only something like 10 or 15 miles on the odometer. He had no plans on ever driving it; it was intended to be preserved as a collector's item just as it originally came from the factory. It had already been in storage for more than two decades when it was featured in a magazine. According to the article, it still retained the "new car smell". 

 

Therefore there is no reason to repair or make any modifications to a system that you want to preserve. Deterioration can be slowed by proper storage conditions (e.g. temperature and humidity controls).  

 

[Beeblebrox]

I think the main question the OP is posing applies to those Atari 8-bit's in the their collection which have already deteriorated overs the years and thus need some fixing up. Should the OP already have a particular machine in mint condition with fully working components then sure - the storage conditions going forward would certainly help preserve it.

 

I'd imagine you may well still get the likes of oxidiation on IC's legs, sockets and naturally failing ICs with retro computers even if you have it stored in the ideal conditions. Same goes for keyboard mylars which oxidise over time afaik.

 

You often read about owners digging out their A8's from a cupboard indoors decades after where the conditions are perfectly acceptable to find it not booting, having bad ram, CPU, etc. Of course quite a few A8s have been stashed in basements, attics or worse where you can understand that hasn't helped matters with extremes in temperature and humidity, and unwanted inhabitants. (I've found quite a few dead bugs in cheap/sold for parts XLs for example)

 

Incidentally there are some examples of A8s you see on Ebay where a mint condition Atari 800 is listed - having been in it's box for 40+ years untouched. They do look great and the sellers really hike up the price as a result.

[+kheller2]

I'm not sure people are looking for untouched/mint Atari computers for that purpose.  Yes, people who want to have a great starting point for modding might, but I don't see someone buying a 600XL and worrying that it was touched and isn't stock.  There are plenty of "stock" Atari computers.   However, when you get into the "never used, mint in box" and it still has the plastic bags and tape --then you get into collector territory.

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

I saw a video about the Apple I computer at a museum.  Part of the process of preserving it is turning it on once a month and running it briefly.  They also actuate the keyboard so as to prevent oxidation.  @jhd had a good example about that car.  Unless that car was driven regularly, the brakes were most likely seized and some other problems had to be repaired.  (i.e.  Dry rotted hoses, leaky seals, etc.)  Either way, both computers and cars are machines and need to be used regularly or else they will deteriorate.

[malachykidd]

10 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

I think the main question the OP is posing applies to those Atari 8-bit's in the their collection which have already deteriorated overs the years and thus need some fixing up.

That's exactly it.

 

For example, I have a very nice 800, which came in its box and bag, with boxes for the TV switcher and power supply (but not the actual components), which was purportedly well stored for a couple decades.  The case is in excellent condition, but when I powered it on I discovered that only four or five keys respond when pressed.  I opened it briefly last night, to take a quick look at the interior condition (two very small dust bunnies, but nothing else I could see), and I'll open it again to see if I can diagnose the keyboard.

 

As I wrote earlier, I'm inclined to at least get it into working condition, which might require reworking solder joints, replacing bad ICs and/or caps, etc, but I was curious about the wider opinion of the community regarding repairs to a system intended for infrequent-- if any-- use.

 

[Beeblebrox]

With the 800's keyboard you'll have several types. Stackpole and Hi-tek - which are very similar and a mylar keyboard. All have challenges to fix them. I can link you to several threads when I have a mo but just quickly I've taken this from a reply in another thread I posted the other day. 

 

Open up the casing and take a few pics.

 

Hi-tek, (little white posts crack/perish over time and can be a pain to fix):

    

 

 

Mitsumi (mylar) - These can be equally tricky to fix (I've fixed a few now):

     

 

Stakpole (similar to Hi-tek and prone to the same cracking of the posts):

 

  

 

*****

Stakpole and Hitek can share some single keycaps as cross compatible, but some aren't, (ie the tab, shift, ctrl, (space?) keys for example are not cross compatible as the post mounts are offset on the stakpole keyboards but not on the hi-tek.

 

The Mitsumi mylar type cannot share keycaps with the others as totally different mounting (a cross under the keycap as opposed to the post type for the other two.

[_The Doctor__]

super careful gorilla with double rubber o ring fix maybe? Holds the square tight for them. Then they slide and work fine again

Edited March 21, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[malachykidd]

The keyboard on this unit is a Mitsumi.  I've fixed one Mitsumi previously: a 1200XL which-- I now realize-- went far more smoothly than normal.  I'd read about the difficulties (particularly the silicone layer sticking to the PCB, especially around the screw holes), and I had some of that with the 1200XL, but that came off fairly easily with only one tear in the silicone near the connector.

 

This 800 was an entirely different headache.  I initially tried to get the whole thing off, starting at one corner and working it loose by stages, but it fought me ever step of the way, and I wound up with lots of tears around the screw holes.

 

Finally, I resolved to just get the edge around the connector loose, since it seemed the connector was the only real problem and I didn't want to unnecessarily damage the membrane.  I managed to do that, with more tearing at the screw holes flanking the connector, removed the adhesive strip and stuck-on adhesive, and cleaned the PCB connector with acetone followed by 91% IPA.  Fortunately, the adhesive didn't stick to the mylar layer and none of the traces were torn (unlike on the 1200XL), I assume because the 800 used carbon-over-metal for the traces, and the adhesive couldn't stick to the carbon.

 

Reassembled, loaded SALT, and tested everything fine.  The only problem now is with the START key, which is a bit intermittent when pressed.  I imagine contact cleaner would suffice to clean it, but I'm not going to touch it until 1) I've verified whether that will help (or at least not harm), and 2) I've finished all the other work I've lined up on other computers.

 

Thank you for the input, folks.