Chuck Peavey - Atari Programming

[+MrFish]

I want to post the information I was able to glean from Chuck Peavey's interview with Antic Podcast here. I noticed Atarimania's details about him are somewhat spotty. They may have more details and just haven't gotten around the adding them; but, regardless, this is just my take, which they might want to reference and can verify against the interview.

 

Peavey generally worked on XE cartridge conversions of games that already existed for the 8-bits; but he also worked on a few games from scratch.

 

Software Background

The Nutritionist (Nanosec Corp.) - Commodore 64

Hardware

Iomega - Test Engineering Dept.

Atari 8-bit

[Sculptured Software: Contract Programmer, starting ~1986 - ending 1989]

 

Development Tools:
Atari ST (6502 Cross-Compiler)
Atari 130XE (Target)

 

Conversion:
Ace of Aces - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Lode Runner - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
One on One - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Blue Max - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Fight Night - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)

 

Creation:
Dark Chambers (Sculptured Software)
Panther  - assisted Peter Adams [Primary Programmer] (Sculptured Software)

Atari 7800

Missing in Action (Sculptured Software)
 

[+MrFish]

Just a little info about Missing in Action for the 7800...

 

We have a proto of the game that was dumped some years back: Missing in Action Proto

 

...but Chuck claims to have had a final version of the game -- which never got released because it was cancelled at the last minute. The copy that he had was on ROM, but got stolen during a move (along with a bunch of other items he had in a box: C64 computer, ROM burner, and source code for a bunch of other games).

 

The proto is ok (supposedly 85% complete, but not to such a greatly-playable state). It would have been nice if the final version survived. Who knows where it ended up...

 

[+MrFish]

20 hours ago, MrFish said:

Conversion:
Ace of Aces - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Lode Runner - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
One on One - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Blue Max - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)
Fight Night - to Cartridge (Sculptured Software)

One interesting point about these XE cart conversions, is that rather than working from existing Atari 8-bit source code, he was working with source code from other platforms/systems and porting it to the 8-bits -- even though these games already existed on the 8-bits. Seems strange, but then they worked with what they had available, and got paid for what they were asked to do. So, these were more than just simple conversions to cart -- at least in some cases. I say that, because he claims that Blue Max was coming over from the Apple II, but I don't even see where the Apple II has a version of it. So, he must have gotten code from some other platform in that case (most likely the Atari 8-bits).

 

He mentions specifically Lode Runner coming from the Apple II; but other than Blue Max, he doesn't single any more out specifically. So, possibly Fight Night and One on One; but Ace of Aces doesn't exist on the Apple II either, as far as I can tell.

 

[JagChris]

That's interesting. I always the the Tramiel s pushed the XEGS rather than the 7800 because it already had tons of games they just had to convert to cart.

 

Why did he need to redo them? We got people putting AR on cart without needing the source code.

[_The Doctor__]

Bank switching instead of using the cart as a loader requires some slight adjustments for some software and a little more for others with and without keyboards etc.

Edited April 11, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+MrFish]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:51 PM, JagChris said:

That's interesting. I always the the Tramiel s pushed the XEGS rather than the 7800 because it already had tons of games they just had to convert to cart.

 

Why did he need to redo them? We got people putting AR on cart without needing the source code.

Well, like I said (Blue Max as an example), Chuck maybe converted less this way than he remembers (possibly only Lode Runner). So, I'd assume they were working with Atari source code in most cases. Knowing Jack, all that would have mattered was the final cost to get it done, though; so he wouldn't care how difficult it was for someone else to accomplish.

 

I spoke to Lance at Video 61 before, via email; and he said Jack was able to buy up rights and sources for a lot of older 3rd-party Atari games really cheap, during that time. Lance claims to have a few unreleased titles which are in partially-working states that he bought up from Atari, but has yet to ever attempt doing anything with them. I forget which titles they are; I might be able to look it up in my emails (this was quite a few years ago).

 

As to "why convert games that already existed": in some cases the games were made to work without a keyboard, which would make them salable to XEGS owners using the base system. Other than that, it's a cheap way of having pretty, new carts for your new system; and carts are easier to use than disks (which is where these were coming from).

 

[JagChris]

11 hours ago, MrFish said:

As to "why convert games that already existed": in some cases the games were made to work without a keyboard, which would make them salable to XEGS owners using the base system. Other than that, it's a cheap way of having pretty, new carts for your new system; and carts are easier to use than disks (which is where these were coming from).

Yeah I must have misspoke. I figured that being Jack. But to convert/redo them from source from another platform why not redo them on the 7800. That thing is a beast. They say the SMS is more powerful though I don't see it but that's a topic for a different forum I guess.

[www.atarimania.com]

Isn't Chuck misremembering things? Even considering the crazy world of Atari standards, that sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

 

Would be cool if you could find what Lance told you.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

3 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Isn't Chuck misremembering things? Even considering the crazy world of Atari standards, that sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

 

Would be cool if you could find what Lance told you.

 

 

that would make it even crazier. take a pass on that. next a claim that all rights were given for everything having bought and sold some of said cartridges and such.

Edited April 12, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[abbotkinneydude]

@www.atarimania.com The person to ask would have been John Skruch but he passed away in 2020. You could reach out to Michael Katz on Linkedin but I don't think he would remember in details what Chuck Peavey did. Note: I only did listen once (years ago) to this audio interview and, even at the time, some of the details seemed wrong.

Edited April 12, 2023 by abbotkinneydude
conjugaison

[+MrFish]

10 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Isn't Chuck misremembering things? Even considering the crazy world of Atari standards, that sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

 

Listen to the interview and judge for yourself. It's possible he could be mixing up some details (as one might, recalling events from 30 years ago); but, as a programmer, I highly doubt that he'd be inclined to manufacture details he describes about converting Apple II graphics to Atari 8-bit computer graphics if he hadn't actually spent time doing it.

 

Now, as to the issue of how many games he might have been required to work on in this manner, I'd say it's up for debate; but I would say at a minimum that he must have done it for at least one game, considering his focus in the interview on the subject.

 

I don't know if it's so far-fetched. If you have the original source code and it's coming from a system with the same microprocessor, it's mainly a matter of converting graphics. In the case of something coming from an Apple II, we're not talking about any proprietary graphics-processing hardware; it's just bitmapped stuff (albeit handled uniquely on the Apple II). 

 

So, with Lode Runner, I don't see where it becomes something overly complex and time-consuming -- especially when no Atari-specific features are being added to the final product. Would it have been more difficult than disassembling the Atari disk version and making a conversion? Maybe, and maybe not. One thing is for sure, original source code is not something you hear programmers complaining about having in their possession when working on conversions. If that were the case, we wouldn't have Prince of Persia appearing on our machines in relatively short order after the process got started (and that with plenty of Atari-specific features utilized). Just taking disk games and converting them to run on older cartridge technology (of the time) still would require reverse engineering -- especially when you may also have to deal with some copy-protection mechanisms. 

 

As to the question about which other games might have undergone this process... One on One is all bitmapped, so it seems as feasible as Lode Runner. Fight Night looks like it uses some Atari-specific graphics hardware features (PMG's), but not much. Maybe less-likely, but it doesn't seem that much more unlikely than the others; and in the interview, Chuck does point to Fight Night as being the most difficult/unpleasant to work on.

 

Ultimately, I'll side with the programmer who actually did the work rather than speculations about whether it makes sense 30+ years later. Unless someone has specific information to the contrary, I see no overly-strong reason to disbelieve him on the general idea that at least some of the conversions were done in this way.

 

Programmers of commercial software are used paying close attention to a lot of details. So, they naturally have minds that are strong about details. Peavey was in his 20's during his work with Sculptured/Atari. I was in my 20's during this time too, and I'm just in my mid-50's now. So, it's not like he was interviewed in the waning years of life and ability to remember things that he spent multiple years working on. Also, the interview was done in 2015. In 2015, I was 49 years old.

 

  

10 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Would be cool if you could find what Lance told you.

 

It was back in 2012. So, the conversation is most likely in some of my old Outlook PST backup files. I'll see what I can dig up.

 

[+MrFish]

12 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Would be cool if you could find what Lance told you.

I was able to dig up the conversation with Lance. Note that the conversation was initiated by me with questions about items he had for sale online, and Lance responded with various bits of other information related to the items I was asking about. I didn't attempt to question him further about what other games he might have, which he alluded to. Also, this isn't the conversation in its entirety; I'm just including relevant portions.

 

[MrFish]
The Crystal Castles cartridges are case and roms obtained from Atari with artwork added by yourself?

	[Video 61]
	i acquired the roms. actually, i acquired perhaps hundreds of roms, either on actual carts, floppy disks, or hard drives from atari in the early to mid
	1990's. some work when i put them on carts, others i have had no luck with like super huey, it was supposed to have been released on the xe game system.
	i have a actual cart from atari, but if i plug it in, the game crashes immediately.
 
	crystal castles is the unreleased 16k version. there is a version floating around out there that is unfinished, and you can never die because the game
	is really a demo. the one i got from atari is a complete finished game.


[MrFish]
Also, the Matterhorns are repros that you're licensed to produce and sell?

	[Video 61]
	its one of the images i got from atari. jack t. bought lots of games right after the video game crash, and atari was going to release them all on the XEGS,
	its where games like lode runner, archon, and blue max etc., came from.
	i knew him, and i used to talk to him. i asked him why he never released all of those games, he could have competed quite well against nintindo. he never
	gave me a real answer as to why back.
	so in the end i was able to buy them. some i can publish if i can get them to work, others i have not been so lucky with, they do not work.

		[MrFish]
		Nintendo had a few things that the 8-bits just couldn't compete with:
		new, higher-quality and more in depth games, along with graphical and sound 
		improvements over the XL/XE's. I think no matter how many good games 
		he culled from the past, they all would end up looking quite aged 
		compared to anything that Nintendo was putting out. That's why I think 
		the 16-bits were looked to as the future of Atari. I appreciate the 
		work Jack did while he was running Atari. It's good to see some of his 
		efforts were preserved through your work, rather than just lost to history.

			[Video 61]
			you should see what he had, and i am still finding more. yes nintendo was getting the best stuff. but jack also had some pretty good stuff, 
			good enough to compete. good enough stuff that was not widely distributed at the time. he has pitfall II, pitfall, montezuma's revenge,
			realms of impossibilities, mat mania challenge and others. stuff good enough to compete till newer stuff came out.

 

It's unclear if he's saying Jack had Mat Mania Challenge and he obtained it later, or whether he's just saying Jack had it. I'm assuming he's saying Jack had it; because he doesn't mention anything about not getting it to work, etc.; but, then, it may be one of the ones that he doesn't have rights to sell?... idk.

 

Speaking of Mat Mania Challenge... a year or so ago, I was on a website with reviews of 7800 games; and I noticed that they referenced a screenshot that was definitely not of 7800 Mat Mania Challenge in their review of the game. I messaged the guy on the website and asked where the screenshot came from, and he said he wasn't sure.

 

The reason I was curious was because, examining the screenshot, it looks like it may belong to the 8-bits. The graphics seem to be quite in line with the 8-bit computer capabilities. Kinda of odd that he had it on his website for the 7800 version, and where in the world did it come from??

 

???

 

Compare with a screenshot from the 7800 version:

 

7800

 

[Tempest]

The XE version of MMC definitely exists. Last I heard I thought Bruce from B&C had it (I think he told me back in the early 2000s that it was 'in the warehouse somewhere').  That very well could be a screenshot of it, although to me it looks like the 7800 version with some different colors.  Then again it's not like the 7800 version was a looker to begin with.

[+MrFish]

16 minutes ago, Tempest said:

The XE version of MMC definitely exists. Last I heard I thought Bruce from B&C had it (I think he told me back in the early 2000s that it was 'in the warehouse somewhere').  That very well could be a screenshot of it.

I'll have to listen to the Antic Podcast interview with Bruce again. I know he mentions some of the protos that he has in the interview; but I forget exactly which ones now.

 

16 minutes ago, Tempest said:

The XE version of MMC definitely exists.

Yeah, we have this too. Be nice to see a ROM file someday.

 

 

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

That very well could be a screenshot of it, although to me it looks like the 7800 version with some different colors.  Then again it's not like the 7800 version was a looker to begin with.

I thought the same thing at first too; but if you examine the two closely, there's more going on than just different colors; there is some color reduction (not overall colors, but colors by scanline) on the "unknown" screenshot (as would be expected with the 8-bits). A seemingly minor thing, but significant when it comes to the different capabilities of the two machines.

 

The same could be said when comparing Xenophobe on the two systems. Although, the lower colors used on the 8-bit version of Xenophobe are a bit more pronounced (creatures matching whatever the level background color currently is).

 

And, yeah, MM wasn't exactly a graphics showcase on the 7800.

 

[+Mitch]

It almost looks like an early 7800 emu screenshot where not all of the colors are emulated properly.

 

Mitch

[+MrFish]

One thing that stands out as odd about the image is the black mat. It might not seem so from the particular shot taken (because the ref is obscured by the two wrestlers); but, since the ref has a lot of black clothes, imagine how he might look in various situations -- basically half disappearing at times. Of course, if it is an 8-bit computer screenshot, it seems possible that a lot of black might be needed in the background in order to make it possible for the ref to appear in his proper colors; and it can't be seen from that screenshot whether or not the ref has some kind of other color outlining his pants or not. Not the greatest screenshot to make a determination about it...

 

[+MrFish]

7 hours ago, MrFish said:

[MrFish]
The Crystal Castles cartridges are case and roms obtained from Atari with artwork added by yourself?

	[Video 61]
	i acquired the roms. actually, i acquired perhaps hundreds of roms, either on actual carts, floppy disks, or hard drives from atari in the early to mid
	1990's. some work when i put them on carts, others i have had no luck with like super huey, it was supposed to have been released on the xe game system.
	i have a actual cart from atari, but if i plug it in, the game crashes immediately.
 
	crystal castles is the unreleased 16k version. there is a version floating around out there that is unfinished, and you can never die because the game
	is really a demo. the one i got from atari is a complete finished game.


[MrFish]
Also, the Matterhorns are repros that you're licensed to produce and sell?

	[Video 61]
	its one of the images i got from atari. jack t. bought lots of games right after the video game crash, and atari was going to release them all on the XEGS,
	its where games like lode runner, archon, and blue max etc., came from.
	i knew him, and i used to talk to him. i asked him why he never released all of those games, he could have competed quite well against nintindo. he never
	gave me a real answer as to why back.
	so in the end i was able to buy them. some i can publish if i can get them to work, others i have not been so lucky with, they do not work.

		[MrFish]
		Nintendo had a few things that the 8-bits just couldn't compete with:
		new, higher-quality and more in depth games, along with graphical and sound 
		improvements over the XL/XE's. I think no matter how many good games 
		he culled from the past, they all would end up looking quite aged 
		compared to anything that Nintendo was putting out. That's why I think 
		the 16-bits were looked to as the future of Atari. I appreciate the 
		work Jack did while he was running Atari. It's good to see some of his 
		efforts were preserved through your work, rather than just lost to history.

			[Video 61]
			you should see what he had, and i am still finding more. yes nintendo was getting the best stuff. but jack also had some pretty good stuff, 
			good enough to compete. good enough stuff that was not widely distributed at the time. he has pitfall II, pitfall, montezuma's revenge,
			realms of impossibilities, mat mania challenge and others. stuff good enough to compete till newer stuff came out.

 

 

Something else I'll add to this (although mainly not as direct quotes, because I think some of the details are better left as private to the conversation) is that I did ask Lance if he ever tried enlisting the help of any programmers to see if they could figure out how to get some of the non-working games going. His answer was along the lines of "I've worked with programmers before (although not specifically regarding what I was asking him about) and things didn't go well". So, basically he is of the mind to "let sleeping dogs lay" (direct quote). 

 

I know more recently he has been heavily involved with Peter Meyer in new game development. So, it would seem possible that he might feel safe enough to have him help out at some point. On the other hand, he may be happy enough with the business they're generating from the new games, and subsequently have no motivation or urgency for looking into these old games.

 

[www.atarimania.com]

I ordered from Lance in the past, he's a good guy and has a real passion for Atari games. Thing is he doesn't want to move from the late eighties / early nineties vibe so that clearly limits his audience. I hope the presence of Peter Meyer doesn't have an influence on his decisions...

[José Pereira]

Couldn't resist ...

Trying PFs and DLIs for later see the PMGs came to this:

Was allmost sure that:

BAK: black;

PF0 & PF1 dark brown & pink;

PF2: dark blue /DLI/ white /DLI/ ...;

PF3: yellow /DLI/ purple /DLI/ yellow /DLI/ red /DLI/ purple /DLI/ ...;

 

Then using Priority_4 (PMGs under all PFs) makes sense using P0 (or P+M) double width for one and P1 (or P+M) for the other guy (the PF dark brown covers the 2x pixels PMGs).

Referee white comes from P2 or P3 (see there's only 8pixels width on white) and the reason referee uses black and no contours? Because he's behind the guys so BAK and a less priority PMG does it.

Interaction between them is one use P0 if is in front and the other P1 then exhange between the two if they change order.

 

But after all this I got that PF2 and PF3 on the top (dark blue and purple) are on same chars and can't so must be something different...

Humm... probably not far if this is really an A8 screen ...

 

Seeing the top part is indeed only 4colours per line so suspect it's using bitmap mode instead (and the usual on those old days and not charmode) so also on bottom?

Probably but then from where the dark brown comes from?

Edited April 13, 2023 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

Some years ago (not many  ) me and  a coder were working on the NES https://www.mobygames.com/game/11170/muscle/screenshots/  conversion to A8 (one more that sadly seems  lost forever )...

This one has even horizontal scrolling but that is similar to what I posted for the PFs and PMGs distribution:

BAK (712): blue (82);

PF0 (708): white same (0E);

PF1 (709): red (34);

PF2 (710): green (BA);

PF3 (711): pink (3A);

So PM0&1 for one/ours guy (yellow) while the other is the green (PM2&3).

Other guys across the game will change the PMGs colours...

 

This one looks much better, not because beeing me (as is indeed an almost directly conversion 1:1 to 2:1 ratio NES->A8) so that screen can be also much better design to fit PF2 and PF3 with no problems and still fit on a single charset.

Most of the oponents have 'normal' skin colour that is pink PF2 but it never 'clashes'/be on same char(s) as PF3 green that is only on the sides.

 

P.s.- The guys can be taller and wider as in Mat mania Challenge, of course...

Edited April 13, 2023 by José Pereira

[+MrFish]

9 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Thing is he doesn't want to move from the late eighties / early nineties vibe so that clearly limits his audience.

That's part of it, but the other thing is that I don't think they have the greatest pixel artist right now. Sal Esquivel @Kjmann (who worked on Tempest Xtreme, Venture, and Outrun -- although Outrun wasn't coded by Pete) was a better graphics artist than the guy doing them now. I think they're just limited by this guy's abilities, similar to how games in the early days were limited by programmers doing graphics (when they hadn't much art ability). You can just imagine how Video 61 games might look with better graphics. So, I think that holds them back more than anything. And just giving it some thought, Tempest Xtreme and Venture are the only games that look worthwhile to me.

 

I was asked at one point if I'd be interested in doing graphics for them; but they weren't willing to meet my demands (financially or contractually).

 

9 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

I hope the presence of Peter Meyer doesn't have an influence on his decisions...

TBH, I think Lance has as much to do with the decision-making/mindset as anyone. Pete is under contract with him.

 

[darwinmac]

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

 

TBH, I think Lance has as much to do with the decision-making/mindset as anyone. Pete is under contract with him.

 

Honestly, once I understood Lance's and Pete's motivations (they need the money), everything else made sense (except trying to create a side income from 40-year old computers). They won't change because they're afraid any change (digital downloads, bringing in another artist) will reduce the income they need to feed themselves and their families. I'm not saying I agree with their attitude, but I gave up being upset or caring about what they did after I understood why they were doing it (even if their calculations are flawed).

 

Most programmers here (if not all of them) either have full-time jobs or are retired. In either case, programming for the Atari is solely a labor of love and not a way to support their families. Before I knew about AA (or the ABBUC software contest), I purchased three games from Video 61. Venture is a good game that doesn't need great graphics. However, I haven't bought any of their games for years because what's distributed here (or through ABBUC) is far better quality.

 

TL;DR: They won't change so just move along.

 

Bob C

Edited April 13, 2023 by darwinmac
Grammar

[+MrFish]

31 minutes ago, darwinmac said:

everything else made sense (except trying to create a side income from 40-year old computers).

Making a side income from high-quality software for the Atari is possible, with the right mindset, business model, and life situation. If it can be done for hardware -- which it is -- then it can be done for software.

 

31 minutes ago, darwinmac said:

Venture is a good game that doesn't need great graphics.

Yeah, Venture just needs to stick close to the original; although, even simple graphics can be done to a high level. Sal got things close enough to where they needed to be. It's a solid effort.

 

On the flip side, graphics can be moderately enhanced for such games without losing the original appeal.

 

[darwinmac]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

Making a side income from high-quality software for the Atari is possible, with the right mindset, business model, and life situation. If it can be done for hardware -- which it is -- then it can be done for software.

 

Yeah, Venture just needs to stick close to the original; although, even simple graphics can be done to a high level. Sal got things close enough to where they needed to be. It's a solid effort.

 

On the flip side, graphics can be moderately enhanced for such games without losing the original appeal.

 

We'd have to define terms first. What's considered a decent "side income"? I think hardware and software are different markets. As far as I'm aware, Lotharek and The Brewing Company are the only Atari hardware dealers selling hardware upgrades that probably have a decent side income. As far as I'm aware, everyone else (Best Electronics and B&C are in a different category since they're reselling NOS stock from their inventory, in my opinion) simply sells hardware to try to recoup some of their initial investment creating the hardware in the first place. Both Lotharek and The Brewing Company can produce designs that were created by others. I'm not slighting them one bit. In every case, the original hardware developer wanted their designs produced by others. However, the hardware dealers would have a much smaller R&D cost.

 

With software (even high-quality), you'd have to sell enough units to have a decent side income. For discussion, I'd put the side income amount at $500/month. If it's much lower than that, I think most people wouldn't bother unless it's a "labor of love". At that point, it really isn't a side income. There are enough free home-brew software alternatives (not counting the vintage titles that are available everywhere now) that I'm concerned that not enough people would buy the high-quality software to sustain an ongoing business. 

 

With hardware, if I want a U1MB or a Fujinet (or other current retro hardware), I have to buy one. There's no other alternative. With software, if I want a game but I don't want to pay the price, there are plenty of free home-brew alternatives available here. I'm very grateful for that. I'm happy to pay software developers for their games. I just think it's going to be hard to charge $20-$30 per game and get enough people to buy it. I might do that once or twice, but I wouldn't be paying $20-$30 for a game every month. If you try to go for volume ($5-$10/game), I'm not sure the current Atari retro market is big enough to support that. On the C64 side, I have no doubt there are programmers there making a decent side income. Itch.io appears to be very popular with C64 game developers. Between people who still use their C64 or a C64 emulator, that's almost certainly a much larger market than this one.

 

I just think keeping the pipeline going with new games and sustaining interest in your older games is going to be very difficult. On the hardware side, people are still looking to buy a U1MB or Fujinet even if it's been out for a while. In fact, hardware sales can improve as more people give good reviews of it. I don't think you need as deep of a pipeline with hardware as with software.

 

However, it's simply my opinion. Maybe next month, an Atari home-brew developer will create a business and prove me wrong. I'd be happy to see that happen.

 

Bob C