Gifting a NEW build of the 800XL

[seastalker_returns]

Hey, seastalker here with a new handle name...

 

In short, basically, I'm doing THIS: https://ezcontents.org/atari-800xl-bill-materials-bom

 

40 years since our first one in childhood, I'm building an Atari 800xl from scratch with all new parts wherever available.  This will be a birthday gift for my brother.  So far I have the bare motherboard, and most resistors, diodes, etc are sitting in place, legs bent and soon to be soldered and clipped. I plan to socket EVERY chip, and have parts on order (40 pin sockets are in place). I thought to share some of my experience with this project in hopes notating will help others along the way:

 

[Pics to follow!]

 

If you follow the above link, save for a few resistors not in stock for my project, you can nearly match his orders from Digikey and reichelt.de.  Problem or hiccups: His mention of Conrad orders may work if you are in Europe, but not if in the USA. Apparently that Conrad site hasn't been able to ship to the USA since 1991 and maybe the UK too.   I got brain fried and ordered some stragglers I HOPE are correct:

 

> C5, C6, C8, C9, C12, C14, C15, C21, C46, C47, C54, C71-C78, C80-C92, C96, C97, C102, C110, C112

1nF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

37

 

These may be had at Console5.com  The same may be true for:

C111

820pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

 

Mouser may have:

C44

68pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

C60

56pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

 

Question: Looking at the crystal in Y1 and Y2, does an 800xl only need ONE crystal? My original NTSC 800xl has only one so I presume so.  Following my parts order, I think I ordered the PAL crystal that sits in Y1. I DO have a PAL Antic and GTIA, so I am not against using all three in a future PAL build if there is a benefit to doing so to add to my NTSC original.

 

Other notes:

J8 (**EMAIL ATARIAGE PEEPS)

KEYBOARD_CON

Connector_PinHeader_2.54mm:PinHeader_1x24_P2.54mm_Vertical

1

****ATTN builders! This one is VERY important!  Your new build won't have original keyboard support unless you can score this part. That Conrad site is said to be the ONLY place you can buy it. There are other threads around where the amazingly kind and wonderful FCJ (FlashCatJazz) may or may not have some left and some of these pieces have made their way to USA shores. (In either case, if someone has them, I'd buy two from you!).

 

J9 (No Part needed- built into motherboard?)

PARALLEL_BUS

Atari800XL:PARALLEL_BUS

1

I think nothing to do here... it is pre-built into the motherboard.

RF1

RF_MODULATOR

Atari800XL:RF_MODULATOR

1

Again, you can skip a RF modulator, especially if doing a Sophia 1 or 2 mod.

S2

SW_SPDT

Atari800XL:CH_SELECT_SWITCH

~

CH3

CH4

1

You likely don't need a Channel 3-4 switch. I'm skipping this and the RF.

 

I'm trying to order some out of stock resistors for R35, R38, R65, R76-R79, my J's, L's, U's, W's and Y's. Once all else is in place, I may do an order with Best-Electronics as long as they have NOS. If not, I may buy a used XL to finish the lineup.

 

_____________________________

Question for a future build:  If I wanted to do a second build of this for me, I'd have no reason to unless I wanted all the modern goodies.  I browsed the Brewing Academy site and watched recent FCJ videos talking about an EXTERNAL(!?!?) U1MB!!

Between the Lotharek ram upgrade to not need the several ram chips or U1MB, a Sophia2 that totally replaces the GTIA... in 2023, what original parts (in such an ultimate build) can be ignored or bypassed by using all the modern upgrades?  I'm a bit out of the loop- my last major Atari project was fitting my OG 800XL with a UAV and U1MB. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by seastalker_returns

[seastalker_returns]

Double post apology, but important:

 

For the keyboard connector, I reference this thread:

 

AND...

This:

XL keyboard -> FFC adapter PCB

 

 

[TZJB]

13 hours ago, seastalker_returns said:

Hey, seastalker here with a new handle name...

 

In short, basically, I'm doing THIS: https://ezcontents.org/atari-800xl-bill-materials-bom

 

40 years since our first one in childhood, I'm building an Atari 800xl from scratch with all new parts wherever available.  This will be a birthday gift for my brother.  So far I have the bare motherboard, and most resistors, diodes, etc are sitting in place, legs bent and soon to be soldered and clipped. I plan to socket EVERY chip, and have parts on order (40 pin sockets are in place). I thought to share some of my experience with this project in hopes notating will help others along the way:

 

[Pics to follow!]

 

If you follow the above link, save for a few resistors not in stock for my project, you can nearly match his orders from Digikey and reichelt.de.  Problem or hiccups: His mention of Conrad orders may work if you are in Europe, but not if in the USA. Apparently that Conrad site hasn't been able to ship to the USA since 1991 and maybe the UK too.   I got brain fried and ordered some stragglers I HOPE are correct:

 

> C5, C6, C8, C9, C12, C14, C15, C21, C46, C47, C54, C71-C78, C80-C92, C96, C97, C102, C110, C112

1nF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

37

 

These may be had at Console5.com  The same may be true for:

C111

820pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

 

Mouser may have:

C44

68pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

C60

56pF

Atari800XL:C_Axial_L3.8mm_D2.6mm_P12.70mm_Horizontal

1

 

Question: Looking at the crystal in Y1 and Y2, does an 800xl only need ONE crystal? My original NTSC 800xl has only one so I presume so.  Following my parts order, I think I ordered the PAL crystal that sits in Y1. I DO have a PAL Antic and GTIA, so I am not against using all three in a future PAL build if there is a benefit to doing so to add to my NTSC original.

 

Other notes:

J8 (**EMAIL ATARIAGE PEEPS)

KEYBOARD_CON

Connector_PinHeader_2.54mm:PinHeader_1x24_P2.54mm_Vertical

1

****ATTN builders! This one is VERY important!  Your new build won't have original keyboard support unless you can score this part. That Conrad site is said to be the ONLY place you can buy it. There are other threads around where the amazingly kind and wonderful FCJ (FlashCatJazz) may or may not have some left and some of these pieces have made their way to USA shores. (In either case, if someone has them, I'd buy two from you!).

 

J9 (No Part needed- built into motherboard?)

PARALLEL_BUS

Atari800XL:PARALLEL_BUS

1

I think nothing to do here... it is pre-built into the motherboard.

RF1

RF_MODULATOR

Atari800XL:RF_MODULATOR

1

Again, you can skip a RF modulator, especially if doing a Sophia 1 or 2 mod.

S2

SW_SPDT

Atari800XL:CH_SELECT_SWITCH

~

CH3

CH4

1

You likely don't need a Channel 3-4 switch. I'm skipping this and the RF.

 

I'm trying to order some out of stock resistors for R35, R38, R65, R76-R79, my J's, L's, U's, W's and Y's. Once all else is in place, I may do an order with Best-Electronics as long as they have NOS. If not, I may buy a used XL to finish the lineup.

 

_____________________________

Question for a future build:  If I wanted to do a second build of this for me, I'd have no reason to unless I wanted all the modern goodies.  I browsed the Brewing Academy site and watched recent FCJ videos talking about an EXTERNAL(!?!?) U1MB!!

Between the Lotharek ram upgrade to not need the several ram chips or U1MB, a Sophia2 that totally replaces the GTIA... in 2023, what original parts (in such an ultimate build) can be ignored or bypassed by using all the modern upgrades?  I'm a bit out of the loop- my last major Atari project was fitting my OG 800XL with a UAV and U1MB. 

 

 

 

 

The PAL 800XL does need both crystals and supporting components.

 

Keyboard and SIO connectors are hard to come by now and you probably don't need a modulator. All of the other components are standard through-hole and are available from eBay as well as other component suppliers. Have you tried Farnell?

 

Obviously the 64K SRAM module https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=291 product from Lotharek would save you some DRAM chips, Delay Line and other support components. It does stand tall though, which is a drawback.

 

What will you use for a case and keyboard?

 

Good luck with this endeavour.

 

 

 

[seastalker_returns]

Thanks for the response. I have an extra case and keyboard, so I'm good there, as well as MOST of the resistors, diodes, etc already on the board, awaiting soldering.  I may put an original Sophia in it too. If I do another build for me, I may opt for the Lotharek SRAM option... would be handy just for testing. Though I'm also looking at getting another U1MB (maybe upcoming external model) and or a Sys-Check V2.2. That's interesting that Lotharek's SRAM not only replaces the DRAM chips, but also the Delay Line. What other support components does it bypass/make unneeded? I will look into 'Farnell'. 

 

What happens if I installed both crystals in a NTSC 800xl?  Is it just a waste of money or can it also damage the system?  

Edited April 30, 2023 by seastalker_returns

[deffroe]

I'm coming to the end of my build, just waiting for a couple more bits to arrive.  I've struggled to find Delay Line so will be using a 64K SRAM module.  Also struggled with the Y1 crystal, got a modern replacement on its way from Poland, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125041264532.  Sold out at the moment but, chatting with seller, more should be available after 8th May.

Regarding the passive components, Ebay worked for me, I was able to get packs of 10 and sometimes more for the same price that the big suppliers were offering as single prices.

Good luck and hope you have fun putting it all together.

 

Phil

[Rybags]

No point having both crystals in an NTSC system, fairly sure the GTIA will just ignore the colour clock input.

In any case the fractional relationship isn't there so I suspect you'd get phase drift anyway, on PAL there's the 5:4 relationship between colour clock and the pixel clock.

[seastalker_returns]

UPDATE: I had a donor board (NTSC) to grab some final parts to test my build, while I search for NEW of the remaining later. I also have A PAL system's GTIA and ANTIC to play with and a new replacement Y1 crystal, but with no Y2 crystal yet, I'm testing with a NTSC crystal and NTSC GTIA/ANTIC. (I have yet to install a cartridge header/port and SIO, but neither are needed for the READY screen)

 

BIG thank you to FCJ for his NTSC to PAL video.  I may make this a PAL model (I added all the PAL section's resistors, caps, and or diodes, etc. ) but for now I'm testing as NTSC.

 

Big NEWS: I got my build running!! I just have two fixes I'm asking here for help on, and Pics will follow when done. I tested EVERY one of the ICs on my main working original 800xl and know each are working. 

 

PROBLEM 1: My initial tests were fruitless and had no picture nor sound. I thought bypassing something would be a good test so swapped in my U1MB from my main workhorse and still had nothing. Then I put an Antonia 4MB in and it works.This tells me the Antonia is bypassing a flaw (of mine) where the U1MB does not bypass it. Knowing the IC chips ALL work, I need to take a multi-meter to my solder joints. I was really careful installing proper values of components, so a socket and or solder joint may likely be the issue. Anyone know where on the board to focus on?

 

PROBLEM 2: Even with Antonia providing a temporary bypass to get a ready screen, I have no color out of the video DIN output. If I throw a Sophia (original) in the mix, the VGA out is indeed in perfect color (expected) but the 5 pin DIN is not. I applied the same color fix wire technique FCJ did later in his video and know the points are correct. I borrowed a 100 Ohm resistor from my donor board (R40) even. [NOTE: When ordering new parts, I discovered my R38 potentiometer was MUCH smaller than normal though having the same values. It's tiny legs couldn't reach the through-holes so I initially added leftover capacitor legs. Adjustments had no on screen reaction. Thinking it was the problem, I desoldered it and replaced it with a proper one from the donor board. Adjusting that pot does nothing (at all!) either. I could get another Bryan UAV board, but want to say I completed a STOCK build without the help of any modern upgrades... before I add upgrades.   

 

One other note:  For the Simple S-Video mod, I even tried bridging my potentiometer (original tiny one) at the two rear legs as seen in this video but it did nothing... but his fix may not apply to me yet until I find the heart of the matter. :

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

@seastalker_returns  re svideo and missing colour, just to check you hooked chroma up correctly, (bridge r76 and r68, hook up to pin 5 din with a 100ohm resistor in the wire?) 

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/198754-current-best-s-video-picture-improvement-mod-for-800xl/?do=findComment&comment=5233830

 

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

bridge r76 and r68

The wire goes to the junction of these two components (actually R67 and R68): i.e., you're not bridging anything not already connected.

Edited June 5, 2023 by flashjazzcat

[Beeblebrox]

56 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

The wire goes to the junction of these two components (actually R67 and R68): i.e., you're not bridging anything not already connected.

doh, that was a typo - meant R67, not 76. Annoyingly it appears I've been perpetuating the typo a while by accident from my linked post.🤨 R67 and R68 is as you say correct. 

 

Yeah, I solder to them both on the left side of said resistors on the top of the PCB for ease whenever I do this Chroma hook up, and sure R67 and 68 are already trace connected on the board  - you are right. I just tend to intentionally  bridge them again on the top them anyway in the process when soldering the 100ohm resistor/wire to pin 5 to them, (excuse the borrowed/low res blow up of the image - all I had to hand):

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[seastalker_returns]

Thank you both. As far as I can tell, I have the underside connections exactly as both FCJ and Beeblebrox say: Pin 5 on the 5pin DIN, and have one leg of the 100 ohm resistor connected to R67. Only thing I can think of as a MAYBE factor is that I have NTSC GTIA/Antic/crystal but I do have all PAL section resistors, and or diodes, caps, etc.  Could any of those interfere with the color?

 

I have both PAL and NTSC GTIA/Antic to experiment with and (I think) a PAL crystal. Please advise if any combination can create damage to parts.  

[flashjazzcat]

Apologies if I've misread the situation, but you'll get no PAL colour whatsoever until Y2 is installed.

[seastalker_returns]

I may have complicated things with extra details. To be clear: I have yet to get a Y2. I have both Y1s (NTSC and PAL) available to test with, with the NTSC one currently installed. Also, I have both NTSC and PAL OPTIONS for GTIA and ANTIC but NTSC currently installed.

 

FCJ, in your mentioned NTSC to PAL video, you added all resistors, etc to the PAL section for the NTSC-to-PAL conversion.  I'm not converting NTSC yet, but do I need to REMOVE any of this PAL section I pre-installed from my new build that may be interfering with NTSC color?

 

In other words, when doing the rare REVERSAL of your mod and going from PAL to NTSC (even if only temporarily): I have NTSC GTIA and ANTIC and NTSC crystal in Y1 (and nothing in Y2). I DO have all the resistors etc. in the PAL circuitry section (and U21's IC)- could anything there be interfering with the NTSC color signal?

 

Attached some sneak peek pics of my build - Please forgive the flux from yesterday. WIP and will be cleaned.

[flashjazzcat]

Right, well I really did get that all back to front, but in any case, I see you have W2 jumpered, which is good, but the left side of that jumper has connectivity to the PAL circuitry, so I wonder if you will get NTSC colour until it's completely isolated.

 

EDIT: Try taking off Q6?

Edited June 5, 2023 by flashjazzcat

[seastalker_returns]

THANK YOU FCJ! My goal for now IS to get NTSC color with the current NTSC crystal/GTIA/ANTIC installed. I'll wrestle with a PAL upgrade later. Are you suggesting to lift the left side of W2 and test, and if that doesn't work to desolder Q6 and test again?

 

 

I was confused with the BOM here: https://ezcontents.org/atari-800xl-bill-materials-bom regarding W1 and W2.  W1 is mentioned but W2 is omitted (maybe due to the author making a PAL build?). In any case, the W1 value is stated:

"W1  0 Ohm METALL 0,00"

 

I had no idea what this meant, but studying my NTSC donor board, it was just a metal pin on both W1 and W2. I'm guessing it is not technically a component (in the traditional sense) you can buy.  So I just re-purposed spare capacitor legs I snipped from the build since they were the same thickness and all of what the donor W1 and W2 'metal sticks' were. Maybe I ignorantly made a mistake there?

[flashjazzcat]

26 minutes ago, seastalker_returns said:

Are you suggesting to lift the left side of W2 and test, and if that doesn't work to desolder Q6 and test again?

No. Just take Q6 out, because it's forming a connection between the left side of W2 and the rest of the PAL colourburst circuit. You need W2 there for NTSC colour.

[seastalker_returns]

Ok, I snipped out Q6 (Of COURSE my Hakko desoldering gun had to puff smoke and add to my repair list... but anyway...) which had no change, with or without adjusting the potentiometer. So frustrating to being so close to a finished build, yet so far. I REALLY appreciate you flashjazzcat! Any other ideas? I'm at a loss.

[flashjazzcat]

Blast - that's disappointing. I've just seen a photo of an NTSC 800XL with W2 open, so I'm at a bit of a loss myself now.