Questioning authenticity of NOS "New Old Stock" ICs

[seastalker_returns]

I thought to bring up a (hopefully) interesting topic about the authenticity and importance thereof of NOS (New Old Stock) parts, especially that of ICs. For example, I am building a gift Atari 800xl, using NEW parts whenever available. New motherboard populated with hand soldered resistors, diodes, capacitors, etc. New sockets, power switch, joystick ports, 5 pin and 7pin dins... even scored a few new keyboard connectors.  Only thing left is a SIO port, cartridge port, and the specialty Atari chips. Of all the SIO projects, I'd love to see an actual brand new SIO port to buy and solder to a board. Any suggestions are welcomed (including the cartridge port!)! I have a NOS 1200xl keyboard (but no 800xl yet) which would be amazing to put in a custom case but I digress.

 

So... now I am left with the debate about NOS for the Atari chips. Technically, if a chip is listed as 'tested', then it is no longer new. That might be pedantic, but I'm sure I'm not alone in at least in having the thought process.  I suppose it is impossible to know if listed NOS Pokey, GTIA etc chips are genuinely new. It is belief only based unless you find a sealed whole computer (which can also be re-sealed). There may be community trust in places like Best Electronics (and maybe 'myatari'?)... some may say it is more cost efficient to just reuse the old. True, but I'm curious to know how others feel about NOS parts.  Is it just a false sense of security to you?  I have a donor board but need to look up good ways to salvage rusty chips without damage. Muratic acid kills rust but I need to research if it will hurt the chips and or writing on their face.  

 

EDIT: I'm looking at real Delay Line vs remake (at least the remake will be NEW), and reviewing options for new eproms and any available remakes of custom A8 chips that may be available. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by seastalker_returns

[BillC]

33 minutes ago, seastalker_returns said:

I'd love to see an actual brand new SIO port to buy and solder to a board.

It's been done, I don't know if any are still available.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by BillC

[seastalker_returns]

Wow! Very Nice!  Sent a PM to the creator of the project.

[+kheller2]

I feel you are over thinking this.  Tested is different from used: all chips are tested at the factory when the board is tested, thus nothing is “new”.  Your NOS 1200XL keyboard is likely not going to work without being refurbished. I haven’t seen piles of Atari chips available as NOS since the early 90s.  There are some re-makes of Pokey, the Delay line, GTIA, etc. but, I personally would be looking for authentic, tested used Atari chips.  We can even dive into the nitty gritty of what Sally chip are you planning to use, which speed and manufacturer 6520, which defective GTIA to avoid…

 

It’s impressive to build one of this computers from scratch.  I don’t think your end result is going to depend on NOS vs pulled.  Now, NOS other chips I would be concerned about especially fakes off eBay and from other countries.  Stick to the known electronic shops for passive and LS chips. But no where that I know of can you buy “new” Atari personality chips.  Myatari and Best are probably going to be your best shot at shrink wrapped air from the 80s.  

[+DrVenkman]

14 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

But no where that I know of can you buy “new” Atari personality chips.  Myatari and Best are probably going to be your best shot at shrink wrapped air from the 80s.  

As of a couple years ago, Best still had NOS chips - I have a pair of POKEYs in my 1088XEL build , for instance, that were brand new still in the tube, legs never bent and utterly pristine, manufacturing dates of 10th week 1989 if I recall correctly. I have a similarly NOS PAL ANTIC, GTIA and clock crystal in my 1088XDL build. 

But as years past these are definitely drying up. 

[+slx]

I think it's all in your mind. There is no guarantee that a "real NOS" chip when used in a newly built-up computer will last longer than one that was used in another machine before. By using NOS chips in a project you automatically diminish the supply of NOS chips remaining (if there are any). To me it makes about as much sense as insisting to only f*** virgins.... 😜

 

But I do acknowledge that there may be a dark corner in a collector's soul that just can't resist...

[seastalker_returns]

I appreciate everyone's input on this. As opposed to over-thinking things, I feel that this theoretical discussion is exactly what I was hoping to nerd out on!   If people seeking out NOS chips for brand new builds creates a negative action of 'diminishing' the supply, I guess Id ask: what other use case can the NOS chips be used for if NOT for this exact scenario?  Should NOS be put in a rusty old board barely limping on? Shouldn't these NOS chips be honored by actually using them so they can be loved instead of sitting 'unloved' in a factory or on a shelf somewhere?

 

Wholeheartedly agree that NOS shouldn't work any better or worse than getting used ones.  MAYBE new ones will last longer if not from lack of oxidation, etc, but little else. No moving parts.

 

That IS very interesting about researching pros and cons of authentic vs modern remakes- I'm all ears on Sally, 6520, and what GTIAs to avoid... I wasn't aware GTIAs might have an 'ingot' equivalent.

 

What's potentially wrong with my NOS 1200xl keyboard?  I haven't tested it since I have no 1200xl. Did it have a design flaw? The keys feel nice- not that it may exist, but if some custom case and the NOS 1200xl keyboard fit with the new 800xl board build, I'd actually pause before just using an old 800xl case/keyboard.

[BillC]

5 hours ago, seastalker_returns said:

What's potentially wrong with my NOS 1200xl keyboard?  I haven't tested it since I have no 1200xl. Did it have a design flaw?

My understanding is that the contacts oxidize and keypresses fail to be recognized if the keys aren't used for extended periods, repeatedly striking the keys with force can sometimes break through this oxidation. An unused NOS keyboard would have this issue, while a regularly used keyboard probably wouldn't.

[_The Doctor__]

What's the problem with using NOS on someones rig that had a chip fail, the traces are usually perfect under the solder mask.

1200XL keyboard NOS will still sometimes have connection point failure or squished silicon... so it's new but might need separation, cleaning, and connection finger paint/repair. Then some key exercise to help clear out oxidization if any is left

Edited May 21, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+DrVenkman]

5 hours ago, seastalker_returns said:

What's potentially wrong with my NOS 1200xl keyboard?  I haven't tested it since I have no 1200xl. Did it have a design flaw? The keys feel nice- not that it may exist, but if some custom case and the NOS 1200xl keyboard fit with the new 800xl board build, I'd actually pause before just using an old 800xl case/keyboard.

Besides the contact oxidation issue mentioned by @BillC, the edge connectors of 1200XL’s fail with time almost universally. There a very long-standing repair technique first detailed a long time ago that requires disassembling the keyboard, removing the Mylar and repainting the contact “fingers” with conductive paint. I’ve done this repair on two of my 1200XL’s, though the lesser-used one of those two machines is now suffering from a a few keys that have developed contact oxidation I can’t seem to “break through” with use. I’m eventually going to have to take that one apart again and clean the contacts.

 

http://retrobits.net/atari/keyboard.shtml

[+bob1200xl]

I started out with two cases of new Atari 1200XL keyboards (60 keyboards). NONE of them worked. These are from factory sealed, never opened units.

 

The keyboard is a series of connector contacts, keypad, connector contacts, circuit. Any poor contacts increases the series resistance of the whole net. Anything that is out of spec will cause a failure.

Bob

 

[+kheller2]

12 hours ago, bob1200xl said:

I started out with two cases of new Atari 1200XL keyboards (60 keyboards). NONE of them worked. These are from factory sealed, never opened units.

 

The keyboard is a series of connector contacts, keypad, connector contacts, circuit. Any poor contacts increases the series resistance of the whole net. Anything that is out of spec will cause a failure.

Bob

 

60?!?   Were you perhaps picking up cases of stuff during the warehouse closure days?

 

 

[seastalker_returns]

Bob - Two cases of failed keyboards?! OUCH! Is there a fix for this problem?  New mylar option? Maybe from Best? I updated the thread I started on GIFTING A NEW BUILD

 

I am finding all-new builds sans exclusive ICs a cool thing.

[hueyjones70]

I found something that works as well as the conductive paint. It is called "wire glue". It contains carbon and it seems to adhere to the mylar better that the conductive paint. It has about the same consistency as the paint. I bought it with the intention of gluing the mylar finger joints to the the keyboard finger joints but I decided to use it to repair the connectors instead.

[Beeblebrox]

3 hours ago, hueyjones70 said:

I found something that works as well as the conductive paint. It is called "wire glue". It contains carbon and it seems to adhere to the mylar better that the conductive paint. It has about the same consistency as the paint. I bought it with the intention of gluing the mylar finger joints to the the keyboard finger joints but I decided to use it to repair the connectors instead.

Thanks for the tip. Will defo check this out and report back as I've been after an alternative to the crappy conductive paint pen I've been using on mylars.

 

I've currently several keyboard mylars to fix including 800XL /600XL and an 800 mitsumi mylar. Fixed the latter mitsumi type before for both the 1200XL and 800 mylar types with success but the conductive paint pen I had been using to repaint the fingers was prone to cracking. 

 

BTW for those this side of the pond in the UK, Amazon sells it:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Conductive-Wire-Glue-Paint-Soldering/dp/B00SRIITQ4

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[hueyjones70]

Exactly the same stuff.

[bandit]

I have New and used , however my New ones are almost all gone, I helped alot of Atari users back from 80's till 99.

 

I have 2 Atari set up, and the last year I used a PIA and Pokey for my system. anyway hear is a picture  of how

New IC's came from atari.

[seastalker_returns]

I may hang on to my NOS Atari 1200 xl keyboard.  I'm seeing all sorts of new projects from multiple remake A8 mainboards to mechanical keyboards. Maybe I can take the keycaps off the 1200 and incorporate them into one of these projects in the future.