Atari 7800 Forever's First video review: Popeye

[Cousin Vinnie]

Atari 7800 Forever .com reviews the new homebrew: POPEYE

 

[+save2600]

Fun review as always! A shame about the scoring bug, and seems you may be the first to have noticed it so far. We should let @darryl1970 know so he can fix before many more copies make their way out.

[Cousin Vinnie]

39 minutes ago, save2600 said:

Fun review as always! A shame about the scoring bug, and seems you may be the first to have noticed it so far. We should let @darryl1970 know so he can fix before many more copies make their way out.

Great idea!

[Razzie.P]

I always thought the baby was Swee Pea, which (I didn't think) was their kid.

[Cousin Vinnie]

23 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

I always thought the baby was Swee Pea, which (I didn't think) was their kid.

They adopted the kid after Popeye found him/her.............. so who knows?

[Lord_of_Sipan]

Nice review! I thought the “intro” part was a little long before you get into talking about the game itself but great overall for a first video review and I think you captured the tone of your written reviews well.

 

Shame about the bug. Stuff like that really kills games for me.

 

Have you ever played the famicom version of Popeye? If so, how would you say this port compares?

[Cousin Vinnie]

Even with the beer bottle glitch, this Atari 7800 version is superior 

[Lord_of_Sipan]

5 hours ago, Cousin Vinnie said:

Even with the beer bottle glitch, this Atari 7800 version is superior 

Cool. I always thought the famicom version was kind of meh compared to the arcade version

[Trebor]

A really minor item, but nice catch Vinnie, regardless.  Not receiving 100 points when a bottle is punched during the Street/Note stage, evidently slipped through the cracks on the final version.  It does not impact gameplay at all. 

 

The topic reminded me of infamous issues present in Arcade games.  Here are a few examples:

 

1. Gorf - The sounds and sprites completely lock up at times, especially on the Galaxian level.
2. Phoenix - Game awards 200,000 points if you shoot three diagonal (200 point) birds in quick succession.
3. Smash TV - There is often an 'invisible wall' preventing you from reaching the edges of the screen.
4. Venture - Sometimes the arrows pass through the monsters without killing them.
5. Exerion - Bonus points bug: 40 aliens hit, bonus charge of 60; 41 aliens hit, bonus charge of 41.
6. Berzerk - Player sometimes can exit from the top or bottom even with a sealed block.
7. Paperboy - House numbering bug on Easy Street: If a player loses a life while crossing the road, the house numbers all increase by one.  Using the displayed house numbers as a guide for delivery, will cause the player to lose customers.

 

All of the above are classic Arcade games (Some more well known than others), which hardly seemed ruined by the aforementioned issues, none were showstoppers.  Several though, significantly impact gameplay (Gorf, Smash TV, Venture, Berzerk, Paperboy), and others somewhat (Exerion) to very (Phoenix) significantly impact scoring.

 

The 7800 Popeye port item falls under a (arguably) less significant issue than the Exerion bonus bug.  The bottle scoring issue on the Street/Note level having the impact of "driving batty" or "really kills (the game)" is a bit over the top, too dramatic, IMHO.  To each their own though.

 

FYI, the Revision F/colored background is not a home port/famicom item, rather experienced under an original Revision F/Novice Arcade machine. 

 

Here's a tidbit concerning Revision F Arcade:

 

It was a great touch/add-on by Darryl to pay homage to that version of a Popeye Arcade machine.

 

Nonetheless, if wanting to play a Novice version of the game and the colored background, "Novice Rev F", is too bothersome, as posted in the main Popeye thread, enter the following joystick combination at the Popeye title screen to make it just "Novice" with a black background: Right, Down, Right, Up, Up, Down.

[Lord_of_Sipan]

I guess killing the game is too harsh. Now that I think of it, the bottles are not even that big of a component of your score particularly after the first loop if I remember right. I still think I will pick this one up as I like the original version.

I am a sucker for early platformers.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:38 PM, Cousin Vinnie said:

Atari 7800 Forever .com reviews the new homebrew: POPEYE

 

Saying this as someone who has enjoyed your written reviews: the thumbnail alone is enough to make me not watch the video.  Anytime I see someone doing the YouTube face in order to please The Algorithm, 99.9% of the time my usual response is to just keep scrolling.

[Razzie.P]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Saying this as someone who has enjoyed your written reviews: the thumbnail alone is enough to make me not watch the video.  Anytime I see someone doing the YouTube face in order to please The Algorithm, 99.9% of the time my usual response is to just keep scrolling.

There's an algorithm that looks at funky faces?   That's... I dunno, odd?  

 

How's it work and what's it do?  Unless that's delrailing the thread too much.  It doesn't bump silly faces to the top of "recommended" videos does it?   I never actually see them in my lists.

[Silver Back]

People who make YouTube videos make them to be seen. There's classes and studies now that show certain thumbnails Garner more clicks.  Very few people "make it" on the platform but you might as well play the game if your going to do it.  Of course whether somebody watches the video or not is there right but it's not a negative review at all. 

 

The scoring glitch doesn't affect gameplay per day, and I will continue to play it regardless.  But it does kill an aspect of attempting to increase your score.  This is the way of our medium though, and we purchase these things because we miss the benefits.  But we must also remember that these things happen, they've happened even in the days of these consoles.  Glitches, bugs, etc fall through the cracks and eventually we celebrate them in forums, videos and memories. 

 

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Saying this as someone who has enjoyed your written reviews: the thumbnail alone is enough to make me not watch the video.  Anytime I see someone doing the YouTube face in order to please The Algorithm, 99.9% of the time my usual response is to just keep scrolling.

LOL. 
I totally agree, I hate those stupid faces, and I actually hurt my face a bit trying to lampoon this stupid trend. (I'm not kidding). I have no idea why people do that. I feel like all of social media is some sort of talentless crap circus, and in that way, I was making fun if it. 

Just wait till the tumbnails where Silverback is arching his back and shirtless... fellas.

[AtariBrian]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:14 PM, save2600 said:

Fun review as always! A shame about the scoring bug, and seems you may be the first to have noticed it so far. We should let @darryl1970 know so he can fix before many more copies make their way out.

Hopefully he sees this thread, or better yet maybe since Al is making and shipping all the carts, someone could show him this thread...

[+darryl1970]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:14 PM, save2600 said:

Fun review as always! A shame about the scoring bug, and seems you may be the first to have noticed it so far. We should let @darryl1970 know so he can fix before many more copies make their way out.

Hello everybody. I saw this review yesterday. I was parked, enjoying some ice cream, and I watched the review. As you may imagine, I was pretty bummed to find out that the scoring bug was never found. I replied to the YouTube video last night, and I copied the response to the Facebook post where I found the link. It was long-winded, so I just want to reply with some quick things here. (I may post my long-winded response below, as course corrects a couple things, such as high score tables and such. However, it seems that @Trebor covered a lot already. The only other thing I covered was the difference between Bluto and Brutus, but that's not too relevant here.)

 

I feel badly that this was never caught during the years of development and testing. Once I got home, it didn't take me long to find the issue.

20 hours ago, Lord_of_Sipan said:

Cool. I always thought the famicom version was kind of meh compared to the arcade version

I agreed, but I also really appreciated it in other ways. Brutus was more intelligent than the 5200 version that I grew up with. I was disappointed with most of the NES Classic series of games. I felt they were way too easy, but also lacked important details and game nuances, which made the arcade games special. I appreciated the skulls, but I missed the Sea Hag throwing bottles in exchange. I was also not very happy with Popeye's sprite. I thought Brutus was nice though. I had a lot of fun with it.

 

I have read that these games were some of the first runs. They hadn't developed special mappers yet. I also imagine they limited the cart sizes, since classic games were probably not going to draw a large revenue return. I didn't care for Popeye's goofy punch and face, but I now see how they strategically placed the multiple 8x8 sprites to not overload the number per row. It was wisely planned around the system weaknesses and strengths.

20 hours ago, Trebor said:

A really minor item, but nice catch Vinnie, regardless.  Not receiving 100 points when a bottle is punched during the Street/Note stage, evidently slipped through the cracks on the final version.  It does not impact gameplay at all. 

 

The topic reminded me of infamous issues present in Arcade games.  Here are a few examples:

 

1. Gorf - The sounds and sprites completely lock up at times, especially on the Galaxian level.
2. Phoenix - Game awards 200,000 points if you shoot three diagonal (200 point) birds in quick succession.
3. Smash TV - There is often an 'invisible wall' preventing you from reaching the edges of the screen.
4. Venture - Sometimes the arrows pass through the monsters without killing them.
5. Exerion - Bonus points bug: 40 aliens hit, bonus charge of 60; 41 aliens hit, bonus charge of 41.
6. Berzerk - Player sometimes can exit from the top or bottom even with a sealed block.
7. Paperboy - House numbering bug on Easy Street: If a player loses a life while crossing the road, the house numbers all increase by one.  Using the displayed house numbers as a guide for delivery, will cause the player to lose customers.

 

 

Thanks for this (and more...) It really helped me to not feel so badly about this. I am not proud, but it put it into a better perspective.

20 hours ago, Trebor said:

It was a great touch/add-on by Darryl to pay homage to that version of a Popeye Arcade machine.

Thank you.

20 hours ago, Trebor said:

Nonetheless, if wanting to play a Novice version of the game and the colored background, "Novice Rev F", is too bothersome, as posted in the main Popeye thread, enter the following joystick combination at the Popeye title screen to make it just "Novice" with a black background: Right, Down, Right, Up, Up, Down.

Thanks @Trebor. Very much appreciate the kind words.

To reiterate, Right, Down, Right, Up, Up, Down is the code (entered on the title screen) to disable the background color. Rev (REVISION) F becomes "Novice".

Also, there are 3 separate high score tables when using a save device. I did not think the game could store 3 tables without a high score device, so I use a separate "Top 5" table for that. The scores are lost after power-off anyway in that case, so I didn't think it mattered much.

19 hours ago, Lord_of_Sipan said:

I guess killing the game is too harsh. Now that I think of it, the bottles are not even that big of a component of your score particularly after the first loop if I remember right. I still think I will pick this one up as I like the original version.

I am a sucker for early platformers.

Killing the game does sound harsh, but I get it! I kind of went there myself at first. Scoring 100 pts per bottle can add up. It kind of killed it for me when I heard this. I was in a little shock.

 

@Trebor 's post kind of helped me look at it differently. I found so many glitches in my purchased games growing up. I guess it became part of the charm. On the 5200 Popeye, I used to punch Brutus as he was jumping on the see-saw. It would cause him to fly up and walk around in the sky. (The second version shown is the version with my updated sprites. That is why Brutus doesn't have a #5 for his head. I had videos from both versions.)

 

I used to exploit a similar glitch in Pac-Man, which would cause Inky to travel vertically through the maze. (See below Popeye)

9 hours ago, AtariBrian said:

Hopefully he sees this thread, or better yet maybe since Al is making and shipping all the carts, someone could show him this thread...

I don't know what would be the best option. I would like the game to be as accurate as possible. It's an easy fix, which I found right away. I can let @Albert know. Would it be fair that the first 100+ copies would have a scoring deficit? Does this eliminate Popeye from every being a high score of the month game? Not everybody would be playing on an even playfield, but it really bothers me that the score lights up as 100 if that's not happening.

 

As I mentioned above, I found the issue right away. I have a routine that I call to UpdateHighScore. I have one that I call to UpdateScore. I called the wrong on on the See-Saw level. Instead of adding 100pts, I am checking to see if the player's score is greater than the high score. DOH! It's an easy fix, but 100+ people will have a version that will score lower in a high score contest. Maybe I fix it and we just never have a high score contest? IDK. Would those of you with an early version feel slighted?

 

Here's a glitch I left in the game, because I thought it was funny. It's not always easy to pull off, so it's not obvious.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

23 minutes ago, darryl1970 said:

Hello everybody. I saw this review yesterday. I was parked, enjoying some ice cream, and I watched the review. As you may imagine, I was pretty bummed to find out that the scoring bug was never found.

I grew up playing the 5200 version ported to the A8, and liked it.  In fact, I still do.  Even though Brutus' numeric head was a huge source of amusement, the game played well and did a really good job within the limitations it had to work within.

 

However, your version - scoring glitch or not - is the far superior one.  It's just a more well-rounded game overall, and is gradually working its way into rotation ahead of the original.

 

What I'm saying is this: don't be too bummed; you're knocking one of my favourites out of its spot after it had been there for 40 years.  That's no small accomplishment 

[bikeguychicago]

The scoring bug is annoying but doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the game. I honestly didn't notice it until I watched this video. I was also thrown by the Rev F mode, but the explanation above clarifies things. I was also under the impression that the mode was equivalent to the 'teddy bear' mode. Thus, the different background color. 

 

If the bottle bug gets fixed and a ROM becomes available for purchase, I'll probably also pick up the ROM and throw it on my Concerto. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by bikeguychicago

[Jinks]

The scoring bug seems minor. 

For a homebrew to be smooth and without glitches is rare. 

I have a couple homebrews that have all out crashes and glitches that screw the game entirely which we all discussed before and have all be fixed so no need to list them to bother people who made great games. I see my 4 or so homebrew carts as early production that people can not buy today as they are all fixed. 

Probably the number 1 reason to buy a homebrew is to support development. 

 

[Razzie.P]

2 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

I don't know what would be the best option. I would like the game to be as accurate as possible. It's an easy fix, which I found right away. I can let @Albert know. Would it be fair that the first 100+ copies would have a scoring deficit? Does this eliminate Popeye from every being a high score of the month game? Not everybody would be playing on an even playfield, but it really bothers me that the score lights up as 100 if that's not happening.

 

 

 

If you're taking thoughts into consideration to help decide "the best option" -- and it seems like you are -- here's my take.   Since it's an easy fix, I think you should fix it and and future copies sold should contain the fixed game.  Maybe just have something like v1.1 nice n' small on the cart and title screen or something.

 

Even though its minor and doesn't detract from the game for most people, I personally think it's more important to have the game exist as the most polished, bug free, amazing piece of software that it can be than to have parity in any eventual high score competitions.   Especially with a game as nicely made as this one, that'll very likely be viewed as an important example and representation of the 7800 homebrew scene.   Those fans who want to compete in the High Score clubs will most likely to be understanding that "this happens..." and use a fixed rom if needed to still compete.

 

You've made an amazing game that will continue to be discovered, seen and recognized as such for many years, I think.  Fixing that issue now will help ensure it's continuously discovered as "amazing game!" and not "amazing game, but..."

 

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

3 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

It kind of killed it for me when I heard this. I was in a little shock.

 

Darryl my man, take it easy! Look at this on MY personal Top 10 Atari 7800 game list from the website: 

 

Top 10 Atari 7800 Games (All)


 

Rikki & Vikki (Homebrew)
Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest (Homebrew)
Baby Pac Man (Homebrew)
4. b*nQ/ Q*bert (Homebrew)
5. Pac Man Collection (Homebrew)
6. Donkey Kong PK
7. Frenzy (Homebrew)
8. Popeye (Homebrew)
9. Beef Drop/ Burgertime (Homebrew)
10. Ms. Pac Man

 

So............. glitch and all man, 8th best game on the system out of 150 games I own. Well done man. You should be very proud. You bested EVERY Atari employed programmer that made a game for the damned thing. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Cousin Vinnie

[Defender_2600]

Don't worry Darryl, it's really a minor detail, a needle in a haystack compared to the huge amount of work put into giving us the best Popeye port. Thanks again for this masterpiece!

 

[rockman_x_2002]

Super-minor detail Darryl, and I'm really enjoying the game all the same.  I think it turned out stellar, and it's money very well spent!

 

That said, though, I wonder what the feasibility would be for a sort of "patcher" cartridge to address things like this.  Think something akin to a Game Genie, but with a little more flexibility.  What I'm thinking is something like a half-height cartridge that inserts into the 7800, with a cartridge slot on the back for a game cartridge (again, like a Game Genie device).  Rather than manually entering in codes to make modifications, the patcher cartridge would accept an SD card that has patch files on it to modify games.  A particular patch file would be selected via looking up the checksum for the game cartridge currently inserted and matching it to a file on the SD card.  If a matching file is found, the cartridge would then "hot-patch" the game accordingly, very similar to how a Game Genie or Gameshark works, or how IPS patches for emulators work.

 

[+GoldLeader]

 

If the bug can be fixed,  that would be Amazing!  But even if not,  to have nailed so much of it,...And on your First 7800 game (Really??).   It's Amazing anyway!   (small glitch,  Who cares?)

[Lord_of_Sipan]

Yeah. Don’t sweat it man. I overreacted the other day. I have a newborn at home and my mother in law is living on my couch watching Jersey Shore and Paternity Court at max volume all day so I’m sleep deprived and grumpy while trying to write up a PhD thesis on top of it all. I can’t even play my 7800 right now unless I drive 15 miles to my brother’s house since my living room has been colonized lol.

 

I think I’ll order a copy of this one some time over the next couple weeks. Don’t want to overload Al by placing an order while he is still packing stuff up for people who ordered when this batch of games was put up on the store.