on back of 600 XL "switch box" and use with converter box

[newTIboyRob]

So I have a 600 xl, and I also have this converter box:

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075N462CL?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

The back of my 600 xl is not the kind with the Monitor DIN port; it just has the "Switch Box" jack. This is the RF jack that goes to an old tv, set to computer, etc, yes?

 

My question is... if I leave the end of the jack plugged into the back of the Atari, but then send the other end of the monitor cable into that video yellow connector on the box (instead of its usual destination at the tv), would that signal then still convert through that box and work with a VGA flat screen monitor that I have ?   I wasn't totally sure before I would try, but it's likely someone knows this.

 

I use this box successfully with other, different brand computers.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[+kheller2]

It would not work.  That converter box is for composite video or s-video ( separate chroma and luma ).   The NTSC 600XL only outputs stock VHF.  There are VHF to composite converters, but at that point your video quality is going to be very lacking.   There are upgrade boards you can get for the 600XL that will output the signals that will work with that converter box, basically giving you the lacking monitor DIN.  

[newTIboyRob]

 Okie doke, thanks, just thought I would check first. I get a nice signal with a small 1993 Sanyo tv I found. I guess it's best to just stay with that then in my case and make use of the tv until she blows.  

Edited September 5, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[TGB1718]

5 hours ago, kheller2 said:

The NTSC 600XL only outputs stock VHF.

Was it not UHF as in the UK ? I didn't think VHF had the bandwidth for the colour signals ?

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

Was it not UHF as in the UK ? I didn't think VHF had the bandwidth for the colour signals ?

Don't believe that that should make a difference; PAL channel width was 8MHz regardless of whether it was transmitted on UHF or VHF.

 

In any event, the OP's machine is NTSC, which output on NTSC VHF channels 2 or 3 depending on which one was selected.

[+kheller2]

5 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

Was it not UHF as in the UK ? I didn't think VHF had the bandwidth for the colour signals ?

 

UHF/VHF were "Standard" in North America, which mostly means the USA.  UHF and VHF were both color.  You can still get cable boxes from your CATV provider that output VHF for those folks who don't have digital.

[+MrFish]

Also something to note: VHF was where the main U.S. television stations were found (ABC, NBC, CBS). UHF was where the you'd find PBS and one or two local stations.

 

[jhd]

17 minutes ago, MrFish said:

Also something to note: VHF was where the main U.S. television stations were found (ABC, NBC, CBS). UHF was where the you'd find PBS and one or two local stations.

 

The situation was broadly the same here in Canada.

 

In 1998 I moved cross-country to attend University and while I had a TV in my room, I did not have cable. 🙂

 

I had the "rabbit ears" antenna for the usual VHF channels, but I remember being surprised at also finding a local UHF channel (which required the loop antenna) as we did not have that back home.   

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, MrFish said:

Also something to note: VHF was where the main U.S. television stations were found (ABC, NBC, CBS). UHF was where the you'd find PBS and one or two local stations.

 

I should add that I'm speaking for the Cleveland area, at least. I'm not sure how much it held true for the rest of the U.S; but I imagine it to be generally so. I know it was similar when I was living in Michigan (Saginaw area) in the 1980's.

 

In the Cleveland area, we had 6 stations.

 

3 (NBC) [WKYC]

5 (ABC) [WEWS]

8 (CBS) [WJW]

 

25 (PBS) [WVIZ]

43 (Independent) [WUAB]

61 (Independent) [WKBF]

 

[Forrest]

It looks like you can install this upgrade board https://thebrewingacademy.com/collections/atari-800-xl-xe-xel-xld/products/tba-ultimate-atari-video-uav-board-for-400-800-xl-xe along with a monitor connector https://thebrewingacademy.com/products/monitor-port-for-600xl-uav-upgrade to allow you to connect a monitor to your 600XL

 

The monitor port will let you connect a composite monitor. Note many of the inexpensive composite to VGA converters on Amazon will NOT work with your Atari. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Forrest

[_The Doctor__]

I lived in a sweet spot with mast rotator, outdoor ant. I had more channels than the cable company provided pulling in stations 175 miles away, I added an amplifier and later a second passive ant. I did that for a good years until satellite was reasonably price. 7.95 a month 1 dollar for mirroring and somewhere aroun 10.00 got you every pay channel there was on ussb.

Edited September 5, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[newTIboyRob]

Just wanted to duck back in here for one last try, after compiling and summarizing everything I have learned above. I see that first I should have first mentioned I have an NTSC not PAL 600XL, sorry for not including that initially.  The "Switch Box" rear connection port on the back of the 600xl is actually the composite monitor out, so you could either use the included Atari monitor cable and route to a tv with the TV/Game box we all are familiar with, or go out of the Atari and connect to those flat screen monitors that have the yellow video in jack, say like the 2000 era 20" Dell monitors, that is, should they have one. But since my monitor has the blue VGA monitor connector only, herein lies the issue. The converter box I am otherwise using in my link above wouldn't work since the Atari outputs VHF. VHF output to composite converts do exist, as do upgrade boards which output the signals that would work with my box and would replace the the DIN-less concept I encounter on the monitor's end.  If all that is correct, this thread was very helpful already!

 

So I first just have one question related to the above and then another way l want to throw in here with a link:

 

1) kheller2 mentions that, should I try the VHF to composite converter route, the video quality is going to be very lacking. Let's zoom in here... from others' experience, and though slightly subjective... are we talking just grainy but still visible?  Are we talking like so full of white scramble as to be unviewable at all, thus essentially useless?   I ask because the quality I get on a C64 with that converter box, while certainly not champion, is definitely clear with no bar lines and is 100% usuable for general use, you know, not gaming quality, and certainly nowhere near S video quality. But for my purposes, just general viewing, it is more than decent and very acceptable, at least, to me.  

So your thoughts here?

 

2) My final attempt at not going the 600XL to 1993 Sanyo TV route (which actually is quite fine, but I wanted to see if I could just use all these leftover VGA monitors I have) is this:  I am thinking that this cable adapter converter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/273185760086?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata  also still would not work for 2 main reasons:  a) because it is just a pass through type converter, not a true signal changer 

and b) as you can see, though the above adapter does have the composite yellow video connector so that the VGA female end could go into my box male VGA IN port and enable me to come out of my box VGA out port coming into the monitor's VGA in, this route/adapter still wouldn't work because we would still need VHF to composite conversion which isn't (or is it?) going on inside my box. Is all this correct?  

 

 

As a final note, vote count:... Would you just stick to the old tv route, or spend some money to try to get the VGA-only monitor to work?

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Beeblebrox]

@newTIboyRobCan you do us a fav and take a pic of the back of your ntsc 600xl?

 

If it is an untouched, stock 16k ntsc 600xl it will not have anything but an rf out. Ntsc 600XL's were not fitted with din5 monitor jacks, unlike the pal models. There is a place on the pcb for it the Din5 jack, but it isn't present on stock ntsc. I've added one to an NTSC 600xl before and added a few of the needed components to make it work. 

 

I think at present I personally am confused as it sounds like you have a stock and untouched 600xl ntsc which won't have a monitor out, but you are saying there is one. So a photo will clear this up.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[+x=usr(1536)]

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

The "Switch Box" rear connection port on the back of the 600xl is actually the composite monitor out, so you could either use the included Atari monitor cable and route to a tv with the TV/Game box we all are familiar with, or go out of the Atari and connect to those flat screen monitors that have the yellow video in jack, say like the 2000 era 20" Dell monitors, that is, should they have one.

It appears as though you're confusing two different (and incompatible) display output methods with each other.

 

The output that you're referring to is RF (TV); it can't act as a composite output without modification.  This is not compatible with a device that has composite input - you must connect it to a TV's RF (antenna) input to get a picture and audio.  The 600XL's RF output is RF only, not both.

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

But since my monitor has the blue VGA monitor connector only, herein lies the issue. The converter box I am otherwise using in my link above wouldn't work since the Atari outputs VHF. VHF output to composite converts do exist, as do upgrade boards which output the signals that would work with my box and would replace the the DIN-less concept I encounter on the monitor's end.  If all that is correct, this thread was very helpful already!

One thing to be aware of: without modification, you will not be able to connect the machine to a monitor via (S)VGA.  The A8 doesn't generate RGB signals, which is what the (S)VGA monitor will expect.

 

If connecting to an LCD, the Sophia may be an option for you.  However, that will output DVI, so you'll need to add a DVI-to-SVGA adapter into the mix.

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

1) kheller2 mentions that, should I try the VHF to composite converter route, the video quality is going to be very lacking. Let's zoom in here... from others' experience, and though slightly subjective... are we talking just grainy but still visible?  Are we talking like so full of white scramble as to be unviewable at all, thus essentially useless?   I ask because the quality I get on a C64 with that converter box, while certainly not champion, is definitely clear with no bar lines and is 100% usuable for general use, you know, not gaming quality, and certainly nowhere near S video quality. But for my purposes, just general viewing, it is more than decent and very acceptable, at least, to me.  

So your thoughts here?

It won't look great.

 

Bear in mind that the 600XL is generating composite video internally before sending it to the RF modulator to be displayed on a TV.  Adding in the demodulator (the device that you're talking about) will turn the RF back into composite.  Each time a conversion (Composite to RF, RF back to composite) is performed, some of the picture signal ends up not being where it needs to be to provide a sharp image.

 

The resulting image is typically soft, with indistinct colour separation.  Slightly marshmallowy is the best that I can describe it, which is extremely subjective (though not inaccurate).  You'll need to decide for yourself how much of it you're willing to tolerate.

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

 

2) My final attempt at not going the 600XL to 1993 Sanyo TV route (which actually is quite fine, but I wanted to see if I could just use all these leftover VGA monitors I have) is this:  I am thinking that this cable adapter converter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/273185760086?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata  also still would not work for 2 main reasons:  a) because it is just a pass through type converter, not a true signal changer 

and b) as you can see, though the above adapter does have the composite yellow video connector so that the VGA female end could go into my box male VGA IN port and enable me to come out of my box VGA out port coming into the monitor's VGA in, this route/adapter still wouldn't work because we would still need VHF to composite conversion which isn't (or is it?) going on inside my box. Is all this correct?  

That cable isn't converting anything; it's just breaking out certain signals onto the RCA and S-Video connectors.  It won't help with your situation.

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

As a final note, vote count:... Would you just stick to the old tv route, or spend some money to try to get the VGA-only monitor to work?

Unless you're willing to commit to modifying the machine by installing a monitor jack and UAV or similar, your only realistic option is to make the TV usable based on what you've described as being available to you.

 

Option two is to connect the 600XL to the RF input of a VCR and use the VCR's composite or S-Video output to connect it to a compatible display.  This is functionally-equivalent to going the demodulator route you were talking about earlier, though results may be better (or not) through a VCR than with a Chinese converter.

[newTIboyRob]

Beeble, and X=usr, sorry, yes, you are correct, my mistake.  My stock 600xl NTSC doesn't have the monitor out, it just has the "Switch Box" RF, and I confused the 2 ports and their functions before realizing. This explains a lot thereafter.  My apologies.

 

Got it now, clear as crystal, and much appreciated!   X=usr,  thank you especially for taking the time to dissect my info in your explanation.

Edited September 6, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[+kheller2]

Has anyone done a cheap pickoff of the video signal going to the RF box, and used that as composite? Just wondering...

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

48 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

Has anyone done a cheap pickoff of the video signal going to the RF box, and used that as composite? Just wondering...

IIRC, this is essentially how the basic composite mods consisting of one transistor and two resistors work.  They pick off the internal composite, amplify it, and output it.  It works, but there are better-quality options.

[newTIboyRob]

Very cool idea there though, kheller2!