AtariAge + Atari Q&A

[+bent_pin]

2 minutes ago, roadrunner said:

Has Atari tried to buy your site yet?
It will be a sad day to see all the roms removed.

 

[M-S]

9 hours ago, Wildstar said:

I'll say this straightforward. The original Atari hardware IP are not going to be manufactured as they were. For one, original NMOS chips by MOS Technologies, Inc. are nearly impossible to be made now. The old foundry doesn't even exist anymore. Torn down, brownfield site. You need the same or compatible equipment and the photomasks. Those would likely have to be remade and re-engineered for contemporary foundry equipment on modern .35 micron and smaller die. Original chips were fabricated on 1 to 5 micron. Jaguar Era was on .35 micron to 1 micron. Most likely, hardware reimplementation of Atari's traditional hardware IP for the various chips would be in FPGA or ASIC form.

I think I've been repeating myself too much, but just search for "UM6507" and "UM6532" these are chips that do literally the same thing as the CPU and the RIOT, you don't need to bring MOS Technologies back from the dead to make a chip with the exact same name. Even other chips like the Z80, Yamaha FM, M68K are still being made. A much smarter use of FPGA is to remake chips which are literally impossible to be made today, like the a few graphics chips, not sure if the TIA is in that category, it was made in a bread board first and turned into an ASIC later. But as someone here said, Atari is probably never going to develop new technology, they will only do something if the community does it first and they can simply use it.

I'm not sure if this discussion is getting too far away from "Ask something to Atari", I have a few questions yet, but Trogdar has spent a lot of his time on this forum to reply with satisfactory answers on the last few days, so I'll give him a rest.

[Raiu]

18 hours ago, TrogdarRobusto said:

I met with Pokémon a few times when I worked in Europe. Really interesting dynamic in that organization. It did feel like they were largely masters of their own domain, but something was also off a bit .. a little odd? Not sure how to describe it. Super successful brand however, so they are doing something right. 

.... this has nothing to do with Atari Age, this is just me wistfully sighing at people who work at video game companies getting to meet people who work at other video game companies.  (My wife works at Bandai Namco EU.  This week she's in Japan talking to people from the companies who develop the game that BN publishes.  I keep sending out applications at game companies and never even getting interviews)

.... is Atari hiring?

[Albert]

1 minute ago, Raiu said:

.... is Atari hiring?

https://atari.com/pages/careers

 

 ..Al

[carlsson]

Hopefully the naysayers are wrong, and there are openings for lengthy careers within the company.

[zzip]

42 minutes ago, Albert said:

43 minutes ago, Raiu said:

.... is Atari hiring?

https://atari.com/pages/careers

Is this position open?   (Asking for a pooch)

 

[Wildstar]

3 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

Another correction, you absolutely can make a backup copy, no permission needs to be explicitly granted, because it is implied.

 

USA copyright

It does say, “special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy,” so it might be possible to prevent a backup from being made, but you have it reversed. They have to explicitly forbid it in the license. (Not the other way around)

 

Copyright by its definition is the EXCLUSIVE right of a copyright owner to produce copy. That's the essence and point of copyright. There are a few examples like copying parts of a book (you know.... quoting) for the purpose of academic research. The problem is, ROM sites are technically violating copyrights because there has to be a written agreement from the copyright owner allowing such. If it isn't written, it didn't happen because it is hearsay. While even if you can make backup copies, when you the game or give it to someone, you must destroy the backup copies except maybe one working backup and that must go with the original. If you had only paid and purchased one copy of a game... say Centipede. When you sell it, or give it to someone, you may not keep or retain any copy of the game. When you a game once, make copies (backup copies are just copies) and sell or give to multiple recipients copies of that game, you are copyright infringing. All online repository of the ROMs and disk images where people can download the games, no different than BBSs by software pirates, enables people to make copies by downloading. This is not to be confused with online stores/platforms like Steam where they are licensed by the game developers/publishers. 

 

It should be noted, the community, even though it violated the laws had perhaps done more benefit than harm. That's not the issue or main point even though it involved significant word volume. 

 

It isn't in Atari's best interest to be as aggressive as Nintendo but legally they have to protect their IP. Alternative to C&Ds and site shutdown/takedown orders, they could pursue licensing agreements where people can pay some small nominal amount... and Atari and other IP owners collects royalties for their IP. These old original games, may be nominal amounts similar to buying a song for $0.99 to $2.99 or whatever. They won't sell for higher price very easily unless it's a cartridge or something. Paid purchase like Steam for these classics would be more legal. Keeping it available to purchase would preserve the games. Atari making collections releases on cartridges, remained new releases, new games altogether would be fair game. 

 

A lot of the ROM download sites came to be because the games were no longer made. Nor did the game developers made the games available to download or purchase. When flash based cartridges came about, these developers could have packaged their games in a rom image format so people can download them and put them on these carts but legally purchase the ROMs. If the price was nominal, it would be a non-issue. 

 

What can Atari do, request the games they have rights to are not available in a free download manner or if they do, a license is granted. If Atari wants to make some money from these ROMs and disk images, they can and should have it priced at a nominal price for download roms. Those with illegal copies, Atari could possibly offer a fee to "legalize" the copies they have or they can purchase a legal copy if they don't have a legal copy. Since they actually own the rights to the code, they have the legal right to make and collect money on every copy. People here said, games only have a commercial life of 1-2 years. That's not true. Good games have demand for even decades later. The same reason Disney can rerelease movies. One reason they don't keep those movies perpetually available is so not to overlook. They need to go through cycles of putting movies back into the vault for future rerelease. Like when VHS no longer is used, people buy new copy on new formats. Disney then rerelease for DVD or bluray or ultraHD 4k. People buy them to replace their VHS collection. This is true for computer games. What's the likelihood you find 5.25" disks, now... when the disks are not manufactured anymore.  It makes sense especially with emulators so you can still enjoy. Of course it makes sense that cartridges would have to cover its cost. Digital downloads don't have that cost and old classic games are likely to be minimal price unless there is value added content.

[zylon]

3 hours ago, Crazy Climber said:

Is it time yet???

 

 

Too soon???

[Wildstar]

56 minutes ago, M-S said:

I think I've been repeating myself too much, but just search for "UM6507" and "UM6532" these are chips that do literally the same thing as the CPU and the RIOT, you don't need to bring MOS Technologies back from the dead to make a chip with the exact same name. Even other chips like the Z80, Yamaha FM, M68K are still being made. A much smarter use of FPGA is to remake chips which are literally impossible to be made today, like the a few graphics chips, not sure if the TIA is in that category, it was made in a bread board first and turned into an ASIC later. But as someone here said, Atari is probably never going to develop new technology, they will only do something if the community does it first and they can simply use it.

I'm not sure if this discussion is getting too far away from "Ask something to Atari", I have a few questions yet, but Trogdar has spent a lot of his time on this forum to reply with satisfactory answers on the last few days, so I'll give him a rest.

 

I agree. I even mentioned it. I started with pointing out, making original chips is very unlikely. However, the cost of FPGAs and the limited customer base makes it a difficult proposition to make in terms of investing in hiring a hardware engineer to make FPGA softcores. When you consider the time and salary rate of hardware engineers, you won't make ROI if you only have maybe a hundred or two customers. This is why it is likely to be a hobbyist activity of a devoted and endeavoring hardware engineer in the community. As a corporation, Atari would have to pay employees per governing labor laws. There's a niche market for those like the guys who made the TurboChameleon for the Commodore 64 and those making FPGA drop in replacement but those doing that mostly are volunteering their time and never make the ROI of their time they spent at its going rate. 

[Wildstar]

1 hour ago, Raiu said:

.... this has nothing to do with Atari Age, this is just me wistfully sighing at people who work at video game companies getting to meet people who work at other video game companies.  (My wife works at Bandai Namco EU.  This week she's in Japan talking to people from the companies who develop the game that BN publishes.  I keep sending out applications at game companies and never even getting interviews)

.... is Atari hiring?

While I may not have immediate openings, but it might be interesting to know what you have to offer in skills and background. You can PM me if you prefer and we can exchange information so you can send resume type info and portfolio. 

[+bent_pin]

1 hour ago, M-S said:

I think I've been repeating myself too much, but just search for "UM6507" and "UM6532" these are chips that do literally the same thing as the CPU and the RIOT, you don't need to bring MOS Technologies back from the dead to make a chip with the exact same name. Even other chips like the Z80, Yamaha FM, M68K are still being made. A much smarter use of FPGA is to remake chips which are literally impossible to be made today, like the a few graphics chips, not sure if the TIA is in that category, it was made in a bread board first and turned into an ASIC later. But as someone here said, Atari is probably never going to develop new technology, they will only do something if the community does it first and they can simply use it.

I'm not sure if this discussion is getting too far away from "Ask something to Atari", I have a few questions yet, but Trogdar has spent a lot of his time on this forum to reply with satisfactory answers on the last few days, so I'll give him a rest.

Indeed. I have a pile of each and some fresh TIAs too.

[Wildstar]

1 hour ago, M-S said:

I think I've been repeating myself too much, but just search for "UM6507" and "UM6532" these are chips that do literally the same thing as the CPU and the RIOT, you don't need to bring MOS Technologies back from the dead to make a chip with the exact same name. Even other chips like the Z80, Yamaha FM, M68K are still being made. A much smarter use of FPGA is to remake chips which are literally impossible to be made today, like the a few graphics chips, not sure if the TIA is in that category, it was made in a bread board first and turned into an ASIC later. But as someone here said, Atari is probably never going to develop new technology, they will only do something if the community does it first and they can simply use it.

I'm not sure if this discussion is getting too far away from "Ask something to Atari", I have a few questions yet, but Trogdar has spent a lot of his time on this forum to reply with satisfactory answers on the last few days, so I'll give him a rest.

Part of the problem also is a lot of stuff requires exact timing of clock cycles and other quirks of the chips like illegal opcodes because they used them. Demo scene stuff are notorious for that. This has to be matched in FPGAs. The UMC chips may be satisfactory drop in replacement actually made in Taiwanese foundry which may have some equipment compatible. Since the patents expired more than a decade ago. They can now make a few drop in replacement. Fully digital parts are easier to migrate. Your hardest stuff is the mixed digital and analog stuff like video and sound chips. This may require use of FPGA and possibly an FPAA. Sometimes you can use micro discrete components for the DAC and ADC stuff that will be good enough. However, commercial market would be limited.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

13 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

Indeed. I have a pile of each ...

But do they support "illegal" opcodes (like DCP, LAX etc.)?

[Wildstar]

Atari is likely not going to pay $100k a year per hardware engineer to make such components if all they would get is a few hundred sales and maybe only $75k to $100k. No profit or they be spending more than they make. Additionally, as a private for-profit company, they are required by law to pay employees and can not require employees to volunteer their time to the company... as a general rule of employment laws. There are nuances of labor laws per country. The homebrew hardware engineering are done by people as hobby project or they own their own business and as owners are not subject to labor laws regarding their own labor as it would a regular employee.

[+DrVenkman]

54 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

it isn't written, it didn't happen because it is hearsay

I don’t think you understand what “hearsay” is. Please stop playing lawyer on the internet. While you’re looking up the definition of “hearsay,” also look up “barratry.” 

 

You’re welcome. 

[+bent_pin]

16 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

But do they support "illegal" opcodes (like DCP, LAX etc.)?

I've had no issues with the units on which I've replaced them so far, including pacman jr. With what other games should I test them.

[Wildstar]

19 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I don’t think you understand what “hearsay” is. Please stop playing lawyer on the internet. While you’re looking up the definition of “hearsay,” also look up “barratry.” 

 

You’re welcome. 

How do you prove in any court the terms of an agreement that is not recorded? Both sides can deny what is not written or recorded. Most verbal agreements are not recorded. It would be stuck in perpetual disagreement. Witnesses can't recall word for word lengthy complex legal stuff. Human brains just can't do it for its biological limitations. The point is, don't use verbal agreements for this stuff. Have it in writing. If it is not in writing and it was just a verbal agreement made between two parties with no witnesses, what happens if one party dies. Or if there was a witness, what happens if the witness for any number of reason has died and can't independent verify. 

 

When it comes to transferring of intellectual property rights, in general, they need to be in writing. Licensing agreements needs to be in writing out of practical reasons and protection because the term is spelled out in a recorded medium. Unrecorded verbal agreements are wrought with problems because whose right in the dispute? How can a judge or jury determine the truth? 

 

PS: If Atari or anyone is going to sue, they be consulting their lawyers and make that decision... not on the opinion of an anonymous user on the internet.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Wildstar

[Thomas Jentzsch]

8 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

I've had no issues with the units on which I've replaced them so far, including pacman jr. With what other games should I test them.

Modern homebrews. E.g. mine frequently use "illegal" opcodes.

[+bent_pin]

Just now, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Modern homebrews. E.g. mine frequently use "illegal" opcodes.

I will test with all the homebrews that I have using my encode and make a thread about it.

[PacManPlus]

If you use 'illegal' opcodes, can you go to jail if caught?  

[+bent_pin]

9 minutes ago, PacManPlus said:

If you use 'illegal' opcodes, can you go to jail if caught?  

Decriminalized Opcodes

[carlsson]

Perhaps we should call them brazen opcodes or impudent opcodes?

Edited September 14, 2023 by carlsson

[zzip]

10 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

Decriminalized Opcodes

 

I'll drink to that!

 

LDA $c0ffee

DRNKA 

MOR $c0ffee

Edited September 14, 2023 by zzip

[Wildstar]

7 minutes ago, PacManPlus said:

If you use 'illegal' opcodes, can you go to jail if caught?  

In this case, no. They were sometimes referred to as undocumented opcodes. For example, you may have 67 official opcodes on a opcode matrix. Since opcodes are typically engineered on some hardware logic gate matrix. Say, the engineers engineered the matrix in an 8 by 12 array. There, you have 96 opcodes but 67 official and rest may have varying kinds of behaviors. Some chip designs, wired those unofficial opcodes to NOP. Many chip, however, had varying results in how they are behaved. Bill Mensch of Western Design Center removed/replaced the illegal opcodes. This is why you won't really find such in the 65c816. MOS Technologies NMOS chips 65xx cpus, most... if not all, had illegal opcodes. These illegal opcodes were discouraged from being used in official documentations. Programmers for Apple 8 bits were further discouraged from using those illegal opcodes by their decision to switch from NMOS 6502 to the WDC's CMOS based 65c02. However, some early Apple II games had used them and problems happened when running on a 65c02.

 

I'm not as personally familiar with how most of the game developers for Atari 8 bits uses of the illegal opcodes but I suspect similar to the Commodore 8 bits. 

 

Trying to control third party game developers were like trying to herd cats. You can tell them, don't use the illegal opcodes... they used them.

[Wildstar]

28 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

I will test with all the homebrews that I have using my encode and make a thread about it.

Technically, to validate if an FPGA version of a cpu chip is 100% compatible, all software will have to be tested. If people didn't use those illegal opcodes, life be easier but such is life.