Cannot use original TI diskettes required by cartridges - user error?

[Peregrinans]

Finally got some free time to get back to my TI journeys. I'm sure I'm missing something really basic (no pun intended!) but I'm at a dead end and could not find anything on the FAQ or forum on this topic.  Basically, I've been able to get my TI reading and writing both cassettes and diskettes (using a single floppy drive in a PEB).  The PEB is equipped with the 32K expansion, the disk controller card, and the RS-232 card.  I've tested the memory using the "32K Memory Checker" in the April 1986 SUMMIT 99er Users Group newsletter (as mentioned in this forum) and have tested the floppy and controller by reading and writing to new 5.25" floppies and running various file and disk checks.  Everything seems to work fine until I try using software that is on original TI diskettes that require cartridges.  The Disk Manager can catalog those disks fine, but when I try to run the programs I get a "device error", or some variant of that based on the program.  I've tried Adventure (with the Mystery Funhouse diskette), TI-Writer with the cart and diskette, and MS Multiplan with the cart and diskette. Its very systematically failing only on original TI diskettes.  I suspect simply user error but I have no clue what I may be doing wrong or how to test. Any thoughts would be appreciated...and if the answer is in plain sight in a FAQ somewhere then please feel free to just point me to the FAQ.  Many thanks!

 

[HOME AUTOMATION]

Without knowing exactly what you're typing in, or what the input prompt, or error messages are... It's all guesswork ...like, case-sensitivity, perhaps.

[Peregrinans]

Good point.  I'll give a walkthrough of an example:

1) Turn on PEB and insert "Mystery Funhouse" diskette

2) Insert "Adventure" cartridge in TI and power on 

3) Hit any key then select "2" for Adventure

4) Screen states "Press any key to begin". Hit space bar

5) Screen states "Where is the data base?"

6) Enter (with or without alpha lock depressed, I tried both) "DSK1.FUNHOUSE"

7) Screen states "DEVICE ERROR"

Process above tried with PEB plugged directly into TI and PEB plugged into Speech synthesizer with no change in behavior. Disk Manager 2 catalog works showing one file ("FUNHOUSE"), size 42, type "Program". Disk is copy protected (tape over notch). Disk Tests:Quick test:Nondestructive shows no error on sectors 1-8 but starting with sector 9 shows "BAD ADDRESS/CODE nn/21" (where nn is the sector number) for every sector.  

 

The error messages are different for TI-Writer and MS Multiplan but both are similar, with error messages indicating a problem reading the diskette.  The diskette light comes on and I can hear motor noise so it's trying to read the diskette. That's why I think it is user error of some sort, it happens on all of the original TI cart/diskettes that I've acquired, which seems like too much of a coincidence to be random error.  

 

Hope that is a bit more descriptive...

 

[Peregrinans]

I should also mention that the cassette-based versions of Adventure seem to work fine...it seems to be a diskette thing...

[+arcadeshopper]

are you able to format a disk?  save a file to disk? load it?

if not, error messages?

 

Greg

[Peregrinans]

20 hours ago, arcadeshopper said:

are you able to format a disk?  save a file to disk? load it?

if not, error messages?

 

Greg

Yes, at least on NOS blank disks.  I've formatted a disk, saved files to it, loaded the files, run the program....I've also run non-destructive tests on older user-generated disks (i.e., not commercial program disks) and those tests checked out ok. That's what has me stumped, the FDD seems to work fine on everything except original TI program disks.  One of the TI program disks was even sealed NOS so, apart from purely age, I'd think that it should read ok.  Very confusing.  I suspect the answer is in plain sight but I just can't figure it out...I don't know how to test the FDD other than running various DM2 utilities on it, which is what I've done. Thanks...

[+arcadeshopper]

1 hour ago, Peregrinans said:

Yes, at least on NOS blank disks.  I've formatted a disk, saved files to it, loaded the files, run the program....I've also run non-destructive tests on older user-generated disks (i.e., not commercial program disks) and those tests checked out ok. That's what has me stumped, the FDD seems to work fine on everything except original TI program disks.  One of the TI program disks was even sealed NOS so, apart from purely age, I'd think that it should read ok.  Very confusing.  I suspect the answer is in plain sight but I just can't figure it out...I don't know how to test the FDD other than running various DM2 utilities on it, which is what I've done. Thanks...

your drive is either slightly out of alignment OR the speed is off..  check the speed first..  you can check it with a cellphone camera on some drives

 

[Peregrinans]

So it definitely looks like a problem with the disk drive.  Since I had been able to pick up an extra PEB and floppy a few months ago, I tried swapping out the PEB/FDD. The two original TI disks that I tried (Adventure and Multiplan) worked fine on the other FDD. I had previously thought that that FDD was defective because it wasn't able to reliably read the diskette formatted in my original FDD...go figure.  I was convinced that my original FDD was good because it appeared to be a good condition, if not NOS, drive - clean, no scuffing, and with a cardboard drive protector inserted in the drive.  That'll teach me to assume.  When I have the time (hah!) I'll see what kind of testing I can do using the video above (thanks!) and any other online research about checking drive heads, drive speed, or alignment. My guess is that the FDD was just accurate enough to read the first few sectors and then failed to find the rest.  Thanks!

[+Ksarul]

2 hours ago, Peregrinans said:

So it definitely looks like a problem with the disk drive.  Since I had been able to pick up an extra PEB and floppy a few months ago, I tried swapping out the PEB/FDD. The two original TI disks that I tried (Adventure and Multiplan) worked fine on the other FDD. I had previously thought that that FDD was defective because it wasn't able to reliably read the diskette formatted in my original FDD...go figure.  I was convinced that my original FDD was good because it appeared to be a good condition, if not NOS, drive - clean, no scuffing, and with a cardboard drive protector inserted in the drive.  That'll teach me to assume.  When I have the time (hah!) I'll see what kind of testing I can do using the video above (thanks!) and any other online research about checking drive heads, drive speed, or alignment. My guess is that the FDD was just accurate enough to read the first few sectors and then failed to find the rest.  Thanks!

The disks you made in the original drive worked in it because they were "attuned" to the drive--and they failed to work in the other drive because the rotation speed was different enough that the other drive couldn't read them successfully. I suspect your original drive was one of the belt-driven MPI-51 drives, and the belt will definitely lose tension over the time period we're dealing with here. I attached the manuals for the MPI drives here. I also included the manual for the Shugart SA-400, as that was the other original drive used with the TI, IIRC.

MPI51.pdf micro-peripherals-model-51-52-flexible-disk-drive-manual.pdf 39028-0_SA400_Service_May81.pdf

[Peregrinans]

Just an update.. The drive (a Magnetic Peripherals BR8B2A) is belt driven.  I was able (I think) to check the speed on the drive using the tach disk on the FDD and a strobe app (Strobily) on my phone.  The speed seems spot on (a stationary 60 Hz pattern with a 60Hz strobe and a stationary 50 Hz pattern with a 50Hz strobe).  Diskette interoperability with other drives is still erratic, so that I'm assuming it's an alignment issue. The manuals (thanks Ksarul!) indicate I'd need an oscilloscope and an alignment disk, which may make that a longer term project. At least I seem to have at least one reasonably functional drive - and also have two Shugart SA455 half height drives that seem to read correctly, so if I can figure out how to install both of those inside the PEB (there doesn't seem to be room for both with the mounting block they came with) I may swap the working full height drive for the two half height drives.  Either that or make/buy an enclosure and set those up as drives 2/3.  Thanks for the help!

[RickyDean]

56 minutes ago, Peregrinans said:

Just an update.. The drive (a Magnetic Peripherals BR8B2A) is belt driven.  I was able (I think) to check the speed on the drive using the tach disk on the FDD and a strobe app (Strobily) on my phone.  The speed seems spot on (a stationary 60 Hz pattern with a 60Hz strobe and a stationary 50 Hz pattern with a 50Hz strobe).  Diskette interoperability with other drives is still erratic, so that I'm assuming it's an alignment issue. The manuals (thanks Ksarul!) indicate I'd need an oscilloscope and an alignment disk, which may make that a longer term project. At least I seem to have at least one reasonably functional drive - and also have two Shugart SA455 half height drives that seem to read correctly, so if I can figure out how to install both of those inside the PEB (there doesn't seem to be room for both with the mounting block they came with) I may swap the working full height drive for the two half height drives.  Either that or make/buy an enclosure and set those up as drives 2/3.  Thanks for the help!

Back in the day you could take and stack two half heights together, get, from the two holes of the drive that would mount in the two holes in the top of the peb under the lid,  the measurement to the other two holes in the other half height. then mark those holes in the pbox and drill them out, taking care to catch shavings. then you get a floppy cable with two connects close together, then mount them both into the box.

[F.G. Kaal]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:22 AM, Peregrinans said:

 

5) Screen states "Where is the data base?"

6) Enter (with or without alpha lock depressed, I tried both) "DSK1.FUNHOUSE"

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong ...

I don't know nothing about adventure modules, but if I read something like "Where is the database" I would enter DSK1. (inclusive the .)

or is the disk name "FUNHOUSE", then I would enter DSK.FUNHOUSE.

 

Or does the Funhouse manual says you must enter DSK1.FUNHOUSE ?

 

Just something simple to try before starting difficult adjustments

 

[Peregrinans]

7 hours ago, F.G. Kaal said:

Correct me if I'm wrong ...

I don't know nothing about adventure modules, but if I read something like "Where is the database" I would enter DSK1. (inclusive the .)

or is the disk name "FUNHOUSE", then I would enter DSK.FUNHOUSE.

 

Or does the Funhouse manual says you must enter DSK1.FUNHOUSE ?

 

Just something simple to try before starting difficult adjustments

 

Thanks for the tips! I am still prone to mistyping, but since I've been able to get it to work on a different machine (along with other diskettes) I'm fairly sure it is something with that specific disk drive. Appreciate the feedback!