Would you call the Atari2600+ a Atari Flashback model...?

[+Nathan Strum]

18 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

*currently doesn’t play them. The vast majority of incompatibilities will be sorted out in a firmware update in the near future. 

"Currently" is the issue I have with it, as this is what Atari is currently selling. They chose to make and sell a product called a 2600, that really isn't. The underlying means by which it plays the games is unimportant to me - what matters to me, is will it play everything an actual 2600 can? And the answer is currently no.

 

As for the firmware update, "vast majority" and "near future" have yet to be defined, so I'll believe it after it has happened.

[tradyblix]

What's that old saying again? you can please some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time ?? 😄

[John Stamos Mullet]

26 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said:

"Currently" is the issue I have with it, as this is what Atari is currently selling. They chose to make and sell a product called a 2600, that really isn't. The underlying means by which it plays the games is unimportant to me - what matters to me, is will it play everything an actual 2600 can? And the answer is currently no.

 

As for the firmware update, "vast majority" and "near future" have yet to be defined, so I'll believe it after it has happened.

Did you feel the same about the 7800 when it came out and it also had incompatibilities? (That never got fixed)

 

also - as reported by Albert, here on the site who is working with the developers who also post here daily, the beta firmware they are testing right now already fixes most of the issues, so your skepticism is already outdated.

[John Stamos Mullet]

24 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

What's that old saying again? you can please some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time ?? 😄

 

Some people complain because, like gamblers, they don’t really want to win. The thrill of the misery is their goal.

[KainXavier]

I just wanted to correct a mistake I made earlier.  It turns out Wine is not a virtual machine either.  It works more as a compatibility layer.  Still, I think it goes to show just how much nuance there is when it comes to running software on non-native devices.

 

Also, regarding firmware updates and compatibility, this post made by karri in the Atari 2600+ Hardware thread leaves me feeling pretty optimistic about the Plus's capability.  It's just a matter of whether or not Atari is willing to write dedicated code for the hardware.  And that's only if Albert's and Plaion's efforts don't pan out the way we're all hoping for.  Besides, I'm sure someone from the community will take up the task if the official firmware leaves us wanting.  And failing all of that, Playmaji is also going to be tackling the issue with their 7800 module for the Polymega.

[suspicious_milk]

4 hours ago, Nathan Strum said:

"Currently" is the issue I have with it, as this is what Atari is currently selling. They chose to make and sell a product called a 2600, that really isn't. The underlying means by which it plays the games is unimportant to me - what matters to me, is will it play everything an actual 2600 can? And the answer is currently no.

 

As for the firmware update, "vast majority" and "near future" have yet to be defined, so I'll believe it after it has happened.

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

 

The Atari Flashbacks are garbage, I own a couple and they collect dust.  They feel cheap.  The menu system is atrocious, esp the sounds, and slow.  The joysticks are made of peanut brittle.  Endless tweakfukkery doesn't enhance the FB it make it a worse end user experience and while adding some games, it pulls it further from "an Atari experience".   Of course this is all certainly subjective, but this is how I see it.

 

The Atari Gamestation Pro smokes a FB.  Better menu (no annoying sounds) and actually responsive.  NO twiddlefukkery to add roms.   Supports PS4/xbox controllers out of the box (if you don't like their included controllers).   I personally don't like using PS4/Xbox controllers for playing Atari games, but at least it has options for controllers that aren't garbage.  IT's more like a FB that's not complete junk.  I've controllers that work on the R77, OG Hardware, 2600+, but no a Flashback (Wico Trackball is but one example).     The Retron 77 falls somewhere between the Atari GSP and 2600+.   Between the plus, gsp, and r77; I cannot personally fathom why on gods green earth anybody would want a Flashback - - but of course people are all different with different standards.   I'm an idiot and own them all (as well as original).   The 2600+ has become my instant  favorite (though I am counting on a few firmware updates).  

[Brad_from_the_80s]

53 minutes ago, suspicious_milk said:

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

 

This.

 

Now the FB criticism is a bit harsh I think, but also AtGames made their bed with some rather crappy products in the past, so there's that.  The AFB9 in particular I think is handy and works well for gaming these without carts, although you can forget paddles.  They regressed somewhat since that model IMO, even the performance of the devices, and most of what came before was kinda crap, so the sneering doesn't surprise me.  I did kind of expect that product line had reached it's end but then they dusted it off for an AFB 50th anniversary and now they have the balls to re-release that one re-badged as the AFB12.  Those products have their place apparently if they're selling, and they're cheaper than a 2600+ or GSP with no need to have or invest in carts.  Anyway I don't want to get into defending them.  I'm more impressed with your first point.  The comparison of 2600+/AFB comparison is fair I guess, but the question of considering something that isn't a Flashback to be a Flashback seems silly to me, especially since AtGames isn't even involved.  The 2600+ is the new Atari 2600 for the 2020s.  People dismissing it I assume either have other ways to play or are just missing out on a fun device.

[xboxiso]

I still really enjoy my AFB9 in large part due to your awesome work on them. Thank you very much for all you have done for the FBs in general. I too feel the FB9 is the best model of the bunch and am quite disappointed that the FBX / FB50 have certainly regressed in features and performance. I can't understand this at all. They certainly look the part as they are much closer to the original design in appearance, but just don't work as well in my experience with them. I also have a GSP and really like it a lot. Do you have any plans to work on the GSP in a similar way that you did with the flashback systems?

[+Nathan Strum]

7 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Did you feel the same about the 7800 when it came out and it also had incompatibilities? (That never got fixed)

My 7800 has no compatibility issues. I know some do, but mine is one of the early ones that escaped all that.

 

Besides, I bought it to be a 7800. Not a 2600. I already had a 2600.

 

If I were to buy a 2600 "plus" it would be to fully replace the functionality of a real Atari 2600. Right now, it can't do that.

7 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

also - as reported by Albert, here on the site who is working with the developers who also post here daily, the beta firmware they are testing right now already fixes most of the issues, so your skepticism is already outdated.

The original question was, "Would you call the 2600+ a Flashback model". And my answer is "yes". Others see it as something else. Atari can call it whatever they want to. I still stand by my opinion, because until they actually roll out a firmware update that fixes compatibility across the board, I have no reason to call it anything else. And again, what "most of the issues" are remains to be seen until said firmware update is actually into the hands of the public. If I can't plug any 2600 cart and any peripheral from any era into it and just have it work, then my opinion of it will remain unchanged. If others think fixing "most of the the issues" makes it the bee's knees - cool. I'm not telling people to not buy one. Just that I'm not going to.

 

I genuinely hope Atari can fix all of the issues, and it ends up being a fully compatible 2600 replacement. I'd immediately go out and buy several of them to give to friends and family along with physical copies of some of the homebrews that I've worked on over the years, so they could play them on their HDTVs without fussing with original hardware. To put together a proper, working 2600 with an AV mod and a decent scaler would cost me well more than the price of a 2600 "plus". I'd really like to see Atari pull it off. It would speak volumes about their commitment to releasing quality products - not just products that look the part. I'm willing to be convinced contrary to my opinions, but Atari has decades of really bad history to overcome. I'd like to see them get this right. I might even buy a T-shirt.*

 

*Nah. I don't wear corporate T-shirts anymore. But maybe a coffee mug.

[Brad_from_the_80s]

11 hours ago, xboxiso said:

I still really enjoy my AFB9 in large part due to your awesome work on them. Thank you very much for all you have done for the FBs in general. I too feel the FB9 is the best model of the bunch and am quite disappointed that the FBX / FB50 have certainly regressed in features and performance. I can't understand this at all. They certainly look the part as they are much closer to the original design in appearance, but just don't work as well in my experience with them. I also have a GSP and really like it a lot. Do you have any plans to work on the GSP in a similar way that you did with the flashback systems?

I didn't do that much really, just opened the door for others, but I'm glad people got more use and enjoyment out of their Atari Flashbacks.  I don't currently have a GSP.  I might get one for Christmas. If I do, about all I can promise is that I can poke around a bit as to what can be done.  I figured other people were doing that already, but maybe not.

[xboxiso]

That would be awesome. It is a really cool system. I hope you get one for Christmas : ) If not, I have seen them on Amazon for $59.99 renewed. That's an excellent price and Amazon renewed stuff is typically very good, brand new basically in my experience.

[scifidude79]

16 hours ago, suspicious_milk said:

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

Couldn't agree more. The current company named Atari is Atari because they bought Atari and changed their name to Atari. They did this all legally, therefore they are Atari. The Atari 2600 is a 2600 because they say it is. They decide these things. I'm happy that the current owners of Atari at least know what a lot of retro gamers want. Many of us don't want a limited device that plays a handful of games, we want a device that plays our cartridges. No current legal game collection being sold is going to contain great Atari 2600 games like Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, The Empire Strikes Back, Star Trek: Srategic Operations Simulator, (one of my personal favorites) or many others. I have cartridges for those and can play them on my 2600+. In fact, I've had no cartridge incompatibility and I tested all 63 2600 cartridges that I own on my 2600+ when I got it the other day. So, my 2600+ is 100% compatible with my game collection.

16 hours ago, suspicious_milk said:

The Atari Flashbacks are garbage, I own a couple and they collect dust.  They feel cheap.  The menu system is atrocious, esp the sounds, and slow.  The joysticks are made of peanut brittle.  Endless tweakfukkery doesn't enhance the FB it make it a worse end user experience and while adding some games, it pulls it further from "an Atari experience".   Of course this is all certainly subjective, but this is how I see it.

I've owned two, an older one with video out and the Flashback 50 Gold. I wouldn't say they're garbage, but the older one definitely felt like cheap garbage. The FB50 at least seemed like they put some effort into it. It's higher quality plastic, the controllers are decent and the paddles aren't bad. It's done more in the "mini" style that became popular in the retro community after Nintendo did it. Though, with the 2600+ out now, I think the only reason I'd even use the FB50 is for games that I don't currently own a cartridge for, like River Raid and Pitfall. The paddles that came with the FB50 are also useful. They're lighter and more hollow sounding than my original paddles, but they work better with my 2600+ and will do until I get that new paddle and game set from Atari.

Edited December 3, 2023 by scifidude79

[Warboss Gegguz]

It would have to be way WAY worse emulation and build quality to be a Flashback model, lol.

Like, even the non-AtGames models were iffy at best, but none of them are "good". They're just very slightly more upscale than the usual retro plug-&-play fodder that was the style of the 2000s.

 

We've really only just started to get decent mini-retro consoles since the NES mini and such, and even the first few of those were trash sold mostly on lies (i.e. the emulation on the NES and SNES mini isn't even good enough to be worth hacking, they're just collectors pieces sold to people who still buy into "piracy BAD" narratives).

[Warboss Gegguz]

1 hour ago, scifidude79 said:

Though, with the 2600+ out now, I think the only reason I'd even use the FB50 is for games that I don't currently own a cartridge for, like River Raid and Pitfall. The paddles that came with the FB50 are also useful. They're lighter and more hollow sounding than my original paddles, but they work better with my 2600+ and will do until I get that new paddle and game set from Atari.

The only thing that ever really interested me about the Flashback consoles was the prototypes and official rom-hacks/new games included on them, but once those got dumped they really served no purpose. And even then most of them were more curios than great games. Yar's Return is fine but jank (and Atari seems content to never fix it), the Asteroids hacks were cool, and Caverns of Mars and Lunar Lander were surprisingly competent but also PAINFUL to look at for too long.

 

Would be cool to see Atari reissue those with actual improvements (like maybe more than a single level for Lunar Lander) but from what I've heard stuff like Yar's Return and the rest are basically just as untouched and jank as ever. Shame really, because I LOVE seeing ambitious conversions pulled off. Half the reason I started coming to Atari Age, lol.

 

Nowadays, the only thing baring the Flashback name worth getting is the Flashback collection on Switch, because at least that's got Code Mystics under the hood rather than whatever slapdash stuff is up with the console line.

[scifidude79]

2 hours ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

It would have to be way WAY worse emulation and build quality to be a Flashback model, lol.

Like, even the non-AtGames models were iffy at best, but none of them are "good". They're just very slightly more upscale than the usual retro plug-&-play fodder that was the style of the 2000s.

Yeah, the not so legal emulation boxes that come from China. I've seen a lot of YouTube videos covering those, and I even tried one just to see how it was. It was definitely way worse. It was so bad that I wound up getting rid of it.

 

Personally, I don't mind AtGames. The Flashbacks can be cool for some fun, but less important to me now that the 2600+ is available. However, I do still like AtGames' licensed HD Sega Genesis that came with a decent selection of ROMs on board, plus the ability to load cartridges. The controllers that came with it were janky, but I just use different controllers. The hardware is pretty solid, and the emulation isn't bad. And, since it's an emulation machine, there are even save states for cartridges. Plus, it's the closest thing to an official HDMI enabled Sega Genesis that I can play my old cartridges on that I'm likely to ever see. Sega jumped on the bandwagon with the minis, but I doubt they'll start making retro hardware that plays cartridges again. But, I could be wrong about that.

Edited December 3, 2023 by scifidude79

[PowerDubs]

19 hours ago, suspicious_milk said:

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

 

Somebody buy this man a beer!

 

We'll see the next finacials in a few weeks.  I don't expect the bottom line to be great because of the outlay to spend to grow.  Period ended in Sept.  I *DO* expect the gross to be higher though.

 

This period is the one to watch- ends in March and reports in June/July.  That will include the Digital Eclipse age, the 2600+ & Gamestation Pro holiday period we are in now now...and the crown jewel- Star Wars in Feb!!  If we also get the System Shock Remake launch on console this period.... we call all say WOW!!

[Brad_from_the_80s]

It is not the case that if you can't play Pitfall 2 (yet) or whatever few games on the 2600+ then no fun at all can be had from it. It would deserve more criticism if the performance was poor, if it crashed all the time, or if compatibility were really spotty and hit-or-miss instead of like 98% for most people's purposes (and fully expected to improve even beyond that).  Call it whatever you want, I'm pleased with just how good it really is right out the gate, and I think a lot of other people are or will be as well.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Brad_from_the_80s

[John Stamos Mullet]

21 hours ago, suspicious_milk said:

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

 

The Atari Flashbacks are garbage, I own a couple and they collect dust.  They feel cheap.  The menu system is atrocious, esp the sounds, and slow.  The joysticks are made of peanut brittle.  Endless tweakfukkery doesn't enhance the FB it make it a worse end user experience and while adding some games, it pulls it further from "an Atari experience".   Of course this is all certainly subjective, but this is how I see it.

 

The Atari Gamestation Pro smokes a FB.  Better menu (no annoying sounds) and actually responsive.  NO twiddlefukkery to add roms.   Supports PS4/xbox controllers out of the box (if you don't like their included controllers).   I personally don't like using PS4/Xbox controllers for playing Atari games, but at least it has options for controllers that aren't garbage.  IT's more like a FB that's not complete junk.  I've controllers that work on the R77, OG Hardware, 2600+, but no a Flashback (Wico Trackball is but one example).     The Retron 77 falls somewhere between the Atari GSP and 2600+.   Between the plus, gsp, and r77; I cannot personally fathom why on gods green earth anybody would want a Flashback - - but of course people are all different with different standards.   I'm an idiot and own them all (as well as original).   The 2600+ has become my instant  favorite (though I am counting on a few firmware updates).  

100%. All of what you wrote here. 100%.

[Warboss Gegguz]

22 hours ago, suspicious_milk said:

It's Atari.  If they call it a 2600 then it is in fact a 2600.  They own it.  They define it.   ... and to anyone saying the current Atari isn't the "real" Atari;   they are.  Companies fold/bankrupt/change hands/evolve all the time -- Atari is no exception.

Who is the BEST Atari?   The current one.   They are doing two things simultaneously that NO ITERATION of Atari has done.   1.  Putting out product (good product IMO).   2.  Not bleeding money.   Newsflash, like it or not Atari is currently "in its heyday" NOW not 1980 whatever.

 

How much did they pay you? Lol, jk.

I would agree if the current Atari had at least some lineage to the OG, but even that tangential of a connection isn't there. It was literally "Infogrames bought the branding and most (but not all) of the pre-Tramiel catalog." Ironically, if you want the companies that are more directly descendent of Atari, they would Nether Realms and RawThrills.

And the modern incarnation of Atari fumbled for like 15 years before we are where we are now, though you wouldn't know that since most of their catalog from that time is delisted. Even just general game compilations are gone.

 

Are they at their most financially successful in years? Yes. And they've put out some decent indie-ish titles lately and have been treating the legacy of the brand they own with more proper respect... but let's not like jerk them off too much. They've only like just recently earned my respect. Though I guess them now owning NightDive and Digital Eclipse helps. Glad to see those boys get some steady financial backing after all this time.

 

TL;DR I don't want to dislike them, but the prior 20 years up to this point has soured a lot of people, myself included.

[suspicious_milk]

3 minutes ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

 

How much did they pay you? Lol, jk.

I would agree if the current Atari had at least some lineage to the OG, but even that tangential of a connection isn't there. It was literally "Infogrames bought the branding and most (but not all) of the pre-Tramiel catalog." Ironically, if you want the companies that are more directly descendent of Atari, they would Nether Realms and RawThrills.

And the modern incarnation of Atari fumbled for like 15 years before we are where we are now, though you wouldn't know that since most of their catalog from that time is delisted. Even just general game compilations are gone.

 

Are they at their most financially successful in years? Yes. And they've put out some decent indie-ish titles lately and have been treating the legacy of the brand they own with more proper respect... but let's not like jerk them off too much. They've only like just recently earned my respect. Though I guess them now owning NightDive and Digital Eclipse helps. Glad to see those boys get some steady financial backing after all this time.

 

TL;DR I don't want to dislike them, but the prior 20 years up to this point has soured a lot of people, myself included.

Don't let the past taint the present too much; you may miss something.

 

Wade Rosen changed direction for the better & I'm lifelong Atari fan (even of lesser incarnations) who plans on enjoying the ride. Hope it's a long one!

[Warboss Gegguz]

12 minutes ago, suspicious_milk said:

Don't let the past taint the present too much; you may miss something.

 

Wade Rosen changed direction for the better & I'm lifelong Atari fan (even of lesser incarnations) who plans on enjoying the ride. Hope it's a long one!

Oh, like I said, they've taken a definite positive turn. And yeah, stuff like Atari 50 and their recent output shows a lot of reverence for Atari beyond just being a brand they have the rights to, so I'm hopeful for a change in direction.

Also, finally working on getting their GT interactive library playable on modern consoles is EXTREMELY based. I was a doomworld lurker in 2013 (when nightdive was starting to form from a ton of active users there) and a proper sourceport of blood was considered a laughable fools errand for years.

It took a while, but they seem to have found their niche as a brand focused on retro games and arcadey titles (which makes the aquisition of ND and DE even more sensible) and as someone into those two specific things I'm glad.  It's just kind of funny it took this long.

 

Also, don't get me wrong, Infogrames put out plenty of good titles. It was just mostly in the 90s and early 2000s. Alone in the Dark, Driver, Test Drive, Slave Zero... Things just got REALLY rough in the late 6ths gen-8th gen.

[suspicious_milk]

3 minutes ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

Oh, like I said, they've taken a definite positive turn. And yeah, stuff like Atari 50 and their recent output shows a lot of reverence for Atari beyond just being a brand they have the rights to, so I'm hopeful for a change in direction.

Also, finally working on getting their GT interactive library playable on modern consoles is EXTREMELY based. I was a doomworld lurker in 2013 (when nightdive was starting to form from a ton of active users there) and a proper sourceport of blood was considered a laughable fools errand for years.

It took a while, but they seem to have found their niche as a brand focused on retro games and arcadey titles (which makes the aquisition of ND and DE even more sensible) and as someone into those two specific things I'm glad.  It's just kind of funny it took this long.

 

Also, don't get me wrong, Infogrames put out plenty of good titles. It was just mostly in the 90s and early 2000s. Alone in the Dark, Driver, Test Drive, Slave Zero... Things just got REALLY rough in the late 6ths gen-8th gen.

By nature, I'm critical, skeptical, and kinda negative.  By practice (for my own well being & those around me) I practice faith and optimism.  It's not always easy, but it's nicer.

[Warboss Gegguz]

40 minutes ago, suspicious_milk said:

By nature, I'm critical, skeptical, and kinda negative.  By practice (for my own well being & those around me) I practice faith and optimism.  It's not always easy, but it's nicer.

Cautious optimism is basically how I am atm.

[Sean_1970]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:33 PM, Tavi said:

You are not actually playing your old cartridges though when inserting them into a 2600+ though. When inserting a cartridge into a 2600+, it reads then creates a dump file of what was inserted. Then it executes that file.

While using old cartridges is a nice nod to nostalgia, it is functionally no different then a Flashback unit reading the same file either from internal memory or off a SD card.

I’ve seen this and get it, but I don’t understand how, if this is so, I’ve had games crash on me after I started playing them. It’s only happened a handful of times, but has notably been with carts that took a few tries to get to load - does the system keep trying to touch the cart after loading?

[fluxit]

33 minutes ago, Sean_1970 said:

I’ve seen this and get it, but I don’t understand how, if this is so, I’ve had games crash on me after I started playing them. It’s only happened a handful of times, but has notably been with carts that took a few tries to get to load - does the system keep trying to touch the cart after loading?

Assuming your 2600+ is okay, I would guess that the cart has *almost* been dumped successfully, but the dump contains a relatively small amount of corruption, leading to the crash of the game.