Atari 65XE computer that is very unstable

[LaunderMan2008]

Hello, I have come here again for some advice about my Atari 65XE computer, any advice is welcome even pointers to the right people.

 

I had a previously working Atari 65XE computer that barely worked and could run games off my SDrive Max and simple basic programs, but now the system has degraded to a point where the system will run 8-10 line and lower basic programs without a problem but when you go over that you get a random data garbage error and when I try to load floppy games off my SDrive Max the menu doesn’t come up to select games but can load tapes, when the tapes get loaded, the system will run the game but crashes moments later and if you press start to play the game and use the joystick before it crashes, it makes the computer go all funny colors.

 

The video output also has gotten worse and could drop out, go rainbow or go black and white, the crt doesn’t help as it has only black and white and any programs or games with audio don’t play and only static can be heard, the flatscreen tv has audio and odd colors.

 

The computer works slightly better with a usb to Atari cable but stopped using it as the usb power supply made a horrible ticking sound and smelled burnt, It survived and is charging my phone now as I am writing this.

 

i also have one concern about the brick I am using because I have heard that other brands of computers like commodore, Amiga, Sinclair and sega megadrive consoles have an issue with voltages going too high and blowing out the components and I may have one of those bad PSU’s.

 

If you needed to know the Atari computer was stored for 20 years in a relatively dry basement that gets very cold in the winter seasons in Poland and the house hasn’t been lived in for a long time.

 

I have heard of something else called silicon degradation where the silicon dies themselves degrade over time and many components fail on the dies causing the system to run but just barely causing some glitches but remaining stable enough to pass as a working device and I’m guessing some of the chips on the computer may have failed in that way.

Thank you for your advice, even if it is just to get on the right track to fixing the computer.

 

P.S images have keyboard connector still attached as it is quite stiff and don’t want to tear it trying to pull it out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

Looks like you have several issues there.

 

Atari computer chips fail and or die all the time unfortunately.

 

So possibly you have some failing ram chips there, as well as either the antic and or gtia developing issues. Possibly also the 4050 chip, and maybe Freddie chip. (Also possible mum, pia and os rom chip issues) Heh heh, I realised I've pointed at most chips here.

 

There is very likely no easy quick fix. Unfortunately it's made all the more complicated that the 65XE is not socketed.

 

Power supply could be an issue but if you are having issues even with a USB power source I am not sure.

 

What amp USB adapter are you using? 5v 2amps is ideal. Using a 1amp adapter won't give you sufficient power.

 

With this powered on if you feel around the chips, especially the ram chips, and see if any are running very hot, almost too hot to touch.

 

Also check the capacitors for any bulging, leaking, etc.

 

I see you are running a pal setup. Are you UK based? If so, where are you based?

 

Edit: For easy ref here is a 130xe pcb image with chips labelled. Essentially same chip position:

 

Edited January 8 by Beeblebrox

[TGB1718]

12 hours ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

i also have one concern about the brick I am using because I have heard that other brands of computers like commodore, Amiga, Sinclair and sega megadrive consoles have an issue with voltages going too high and blowing out the components and I may have one of those bad PSU’s.

The "bad brick" for Atari is confined to the USA models, as long as you can measure 5V (+/- 0.25V)  at the PSU terminals 0n load, it's likely ok.

 

As @Beeblebrox said, make sure the USB PSU can supply enough current.

 

Is the display good enough to run the Self Test ? might give you a clue where to start, you initial issues seem to point to bad RAM

[LaunderMan2008]

@Beeblebrox

 

I have checked for swollen caps and all are flat and there is no leakage from what I can see.

 

there are also 3 chips I can consider to be slightly hotter than the others by 2-3 degrees which would be the CPU, ANTIC and GTIA but not so hot as to burn my hand just warm enough to notice a difference.

 

About the PAL setup, I am from the UK and so did the CRT and flatscreen TV but the Atari came from Poland and was my dad’s back in the day.

 

——————————————————

 

@TGB1718

I have ran the self test RAM test numerous times and it comes up with all of the grey squares and doesn’t appear to have any errors in doing so, if you want I can film the testing but I am assuming grey squares mean ok.

 

The display is good, it just turns rainbow or black and white on the occasion.

 

——————————————————

I tried probing some of those diode looking things on image 1 and all of them have measured as dead shorts both ways in diode mode which would lead me to believe they are not diodes but a different component or else the Atari wouldn’t turn on with that many bad “diodes” if they were diodes.

 

On image 2 you can see a crack in the solder mask and a cyan line, I probed the trace near it and it had continuity to the other connection, it turns out to be connected to one of the pins on the RF modulator on image 3 orange arrow.

 

I see a potentiometer (red arrow) there and could that be color clock adjustment?, I did not touch that at all but if it is a color pot it could fix my screwy colors and the image dropping out.

 

On image 4 the PIA looks to have a bit of something on it, most likely to be dirt or grime but it can be corrosion or burn mark, the chip is barely warm to the touch even after many reads and writes from the SDrive Max to load a game.

 

I also noticed what could be an aftermarket repair done near a 555 timer chip with a zener diode on image 5.

 

The video is of me testing the joystick and finding out pressing right causes the Atari to glitch out and the SDrive Max’s screen dims out when right is pushed, no other issues found with the other directions and fire buttons.

 

 

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[LaunderMan2008]

I also neglected to mention, I have no special tools like oscilloscopes, ESR testers or even a desoldering gun, just a simple multimeter, set of screwdrivers, a basic soldering iron with some desoldering braid and some repair improvisation skills for faults that need special tools or components.

 

My school does have an oscilloscope but it is an old one with a round CRT in it, if it comes down to needing an oscilloscope as one of the last things I can do. I can ask the school if I can use it in the DT workshop.

[TGB1718]

1 hour ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

I see a potentiometer (red arrow) there and could that be color clock adjustment?, I did not touch that at all but if it is a color pot it could fix my screwy colors and the image dropping out.

That's the colour adjustment, if it's dirty/faulty, it could cause colour problems similar to those you have.

 

Diodes would have a white band at one end which would be the cathode, what you indicate is probably an inductor.

 

[Beeblebrox]

@LaunderMan2008

It's good your ram isn't appearing in self test as bad. I do wonder if the mmu chip can still be an issue, even if ram reports OK in self test.

 

Image 1 those black components are ferrite beads to help clear up noise (AFAIK) so these aren't diodes. 

 

The 3 x chips running warm are likely at the temp they are supposed to be. They can still be failing even if only warm. Gtia chips can still run for example, despite failing, and system crashes/graphical glitches can occur as a result. 

 

The colour pot might be causing some issues, where you can spray it with some contact cleaner and turn it a few times. There are replacements for it which you can buy. I have a load of spares if you need some.

 

I don't think the marks on the pia are indicative of anything bad. I think you would have total system failure if the pia had burnt out. 

 

I think that it wouldn't hurt to reflow those solder points you believe to have cracks. If you are confident with a soldering iron. 

 

The aftermarket repair on the 555 chip could have been done at the factory. Anyone have any ideas? I've not come across an XE with it before. 

 

I think have a go at the above things one at a time, starting with the colour pot contact cleaning first. See if the image issue clears up. 

 

It make well be a combo of things so always best to do one thing at a time. 

 

There could be some failing chips of course but cross that bridge as and when. 

 

As per suggestion above by TGB1718 make sure your usb current is high enough and don't be using an apple or android usb mains adapter that is only supplying say 500ma or 1amp. That's too low. 2amps is ideal. 

 

TGB1718's post reply crossed over with mine just now. 

Edited January 9 by Beeblebrox

[TGB1718]

5 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

The aftermarket repair on the 555 chip could have been done at the factory. Anyone have any ideas? I've not come across an XE with it before. 

It does nothing, it's across the 470K resistor which internally is the inverting input to an op amp,

pulling the trigger input permanently low, in this particular configuration it would have no effect.

 

[LaunderMan2008]

 

2

 

For whatever reason I cannot type above this video.

 

I have very good news and some bad news depending on tomorrow.

 

The good news is that the pot adjustment made the image very clear and no rainbows appeared, video 1 shows image before adjustment and video 2 is the adjustment itself, I did not have any contact cleaner at all just some ancient cans of WD-40 and a knockoff that I didn’t use but I rocked the pot back and forth may times whilst off and felt some parts where it was getting harder to turn but I overcame those and the pot is smooth.

 

In image 4 I just finished the pot adjustment and I put the computer back together (no screws) which added some RF shielding and it made the image crystal clear and perfect as if it was composite.

 

The bad news is when I went to load a tape from the SDrive Max it would sync but I couldn’t hear the beeps and it would eventually error out (error-140) tape read error but I do have another micro SD card with games on it which I am going to try tomorrow, I tried loading from tape mode and CLOAD command and neither made the game load.

 

I’ll try loading some games tomorrow from both micro SD cards and seeing if I can get it to make the loading beeping sounds.

 

i have tried the joystick again before loading was an issue and it doesn’t read any other direction besides left and left makes the Atari crash and the SDrive Max’s screen to dim, wanted to know what could be causing tape load errors, crashing with the joystick and not loading into the floppy menu when SDrive Max is used on basic mode not tape mode.

 

I am also very close to getting the oscilloscope from school, they never used it and I asked if I could have it because it would get used more in my room than 10 years worth of science lessons sitting in a cupboard and the science head almost decided to throw it out. 

 

——————————————————

 

@TGB1718

 

As mentioned on this post, I have freed the pot and adjusted it.

 

I have used a 3.5A USB charger but it made no difference to stability or image quality, my primary power supply that I use is the big brick.

 

——————————————————

 

@Beeblebrox

 

Image of ram self test results on image 2

 

My primary power supply is the big brick which I tested and it came up with 5.24V-5.25V which is barely within spec but ok.

 

 

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[Beeblebrox]

@LaunderMan2008@LaunderMan2008 a few things.

 

To load most commercial cassette games you power up the machine holding down option and start, press play, then return. Cload is for loading games that require basic. If you try and load most commercial games with cload it won't work. 

 

Holding start initiates a load function and holding down option at the same time disables basic, because a lot of games won't load if Atari Basic is in memory. 

 

Secondly if you used wd40 lubricant it isn't meant for these things. They have ptfe in it and isn't meant for electical cleaning. If it is a wd40 contact cleaner then that is fine.  Good the pot cleared up. 

 

Try a 2amp usb adapter. 3.5amp is overkill in a USB adapter for this purpose. 

 

It could be a bad pokey chip could issues as it deals with SIO and also inputs as well as sound generation. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY

 

You might find replacing the pokey might fix a few things in that respect. Don't discard it though. You can still use a failing pokey for stereo upgrades. 

Edited January 10 by Beeblebrox

[Beeblebrox]

Ps. My money is on the pokey chip's failing SIO and input functions being the issue here. It will involve desoldering the pokey, installing a 40pin socket, and sourcing a working pokey. If you aren't comfortable doing the work then there will be others who can. Fjc is UK based and offers the services, (and you'll likely have seen his work on YouTube). He upgrades a8s as well. 

 

https://atari8.co.uk/hardware/upgrades-and-repairs/

 

Replacing a bad pokey is a small job for him, and he'd also pick up on any other issues with the machine, although bare in mind he is very busy at the moment as is widely known, having moved house recently, time of year, etc. 

Check out his yt channel: https://youtube.com/@flashjazzcat?si=268OxUVpGYdu5MHF

 

If you are comfortable doing the work yourself just be aware that the XE pcbs are very prone to easily getting damaged when trying to remove chips, especially 40pin ones. I've done many myself but you can still accidentally lift traces, damage vias, etc if not careful. The XE pcb build quality isn't great, not as good as the XL range. 

 

Edited January 11 by Beeblebrox

[TGB1718]

11 hours ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

i have tried the joystick again before loading was an issue and it doesn’t read any other direction besides left and left makes the Atari crash and the SDrive Max’s screen to dim, wanted to know what could be causing tape load errors, crashing with the joystick and not loading into the floppy menu when SDrive Max is used on basic mode not tape mode.

 

Are you sure that's an Atari compatible joystick, I know there are some that have the correct connector, but they

short the +5V line when the stick is used, which could damage the system, if the SDrive is dimming, it indicates the power

is being reduced (I assume the SDrive is being powered by the Atari ?

[LaunderMan2008]

Do you know where I can order an new POKEY chip that isn’t a modern replacement with features that blows a hole in my pocket just an original one, my new chip budget is £20.

 

The joystick was Atari compatible and it worked previously when I received the SDrive Max, joystick and tape deck for Christmas, I enjoyed playing on the Atari on Christmas Day.

 

I didn’t use WD-40 on the pot, I just mentioned what I had, I only wiggled the pot to free it and the video output was very clear and stable.

 

Thank you for the tape loading advice 😃

 

I am currently at school so I will be able to use some of the advice when I get back home.

[Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

Do you know where I can order an new POKEY chip that isn’t a modern replacement with features that blows a hole in my pocket just an original one, my new chip budget is £20.

 

The joystick was Atari compatible and it worked previously when I received the SDrive Max, joystick and tape deck for Christmas, I enjoyed playing on the Atari on Christmas Day.

 

I didn’t use WD-40 on the pot, I just mentioned what I had, I only wiggled the pot to free it and the video output was very clear and stable.

 

Thank you for the tape loading advice 😃

 

I am currently at school so I will be able to use some of the advice when I get back home.

Your best bet for an original pokey chip - in my experience - is to salvage one from another Atari 8 bit computer. I have a few pokey chips but I need them all unfortunately. 

 

The good thing is all Atari 8 bit computers use the same Pokey chip, irrespective of whether ntsc or pal.

 

£20 is unlikely to get you anything unfortunately.

 

Are you comfortable unsoldering/soldering, etc?

 

 

 

[sanny]

I think also some Atari arcade machines used the Pokey.

[Beeblebrox]

22 minutes ago, sanny said:

I think also some Atari arcade machines used the Pokey.

also:

 

However (and this depends on your skills), getting a broken Atari 8 bit computer to salvage a pokey from it makes more sense - if you can get one cheaply. Then you have other spares.

 

Any Atari 800XL made in Hong kong (ask the seller to check the label on the underside of the computer), will be socketed so you can easily take out the chips.

 

600XLs are all socketed also but it's nicer to have a working 600XL IMHO.

 

This again all depends on your skills and what you are comfortable with.

Edited January 11 by Beeblebrox

[LaunderMan2008]

I am quite good with soldering, I removed a fluorescent backlight transformer off a PCB, it had 8 pins on both sides and I didn’t lift any pads or traces, I used a solder sucker and replaced it into another board without any problems, the tv worked.

 

Is this chip a pokey, it has 40 pins but on the internet I cannot find any info on it, it is quite cheap so it may not be the POKEY as they look to be expensive sought after chips, if you want I can send the link to the listing.

 

[TGB1718]

@LaunderMan2008 that's not an Atari chip, it's a microprocessor not used in any Atari machines.

Most Atari chips start with something like C0XXXXXX

 

In the 800 service manual, it's C012294 for a POKEY

130XE it's C03051 according to SAM's computer Facts

 

https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/91715/HITACHI/HD6805V1.html

Edited January 11 by TGB1718

[Beeblebrox]

26 minutes ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

I am quite good with soldering, I removed a fluorescent backlight transformer off a PCB, it had 8 pins on both sides and I didn’t lift any pads or traces, I used a solder sucker and replaced it into another board without any problems, the tv worked.

 

Is this chip a pokey, it has 40 pins but on the internet I cannot find any info on it, it is quite cheap so it may not be the POKEY as they look to be expensive sought after chips, if you want I can send the link to the listing.

 

Like TGB1718 says that's not a Pokey or Atari 8-bit chip. Also as TGB1718 says you are looking for:

 

C012294

A few images from a quick google search:

   

 

 

Remember I posted the following here the other day also:

 

 

 

Edited January 11 by Beeblebrox

[LaunderMan2008]

Does the POKEY control the serial io port where the cassette plugs into because I lost the function of loading tapes, no beeping/glitchy beeping and it throws up an error code when it fails, I tried another micro SD card worth of games and it doesn’t load.

 

The bootup sound is also different, instead of the “fart” sound you get a hiss.

 

Just for kicks and giggles, I plugged the RF output into my CRT TV and the image is black and white and has no sound but static, it may be because the Atari came from Poland and the CRT came from the UK and somehow the standards don’t match up but since my flatscreen is newer it could adapt to the Atari’s signal and lock on to the color and sound signals as well.

 

I haven’t looked at sacrificing computers yet, still searching on chips alone or cartridges, don’t like the feeling of killing and gutting a sick person metaphorically to treat 5 other people or in the computer sense don’t like killing a computer and gutting it to fix 5 more, my ethical 2 cents.

[Beeblebrox]

@LaunderMan2008As posted earlier I linked to the Pokey wikipedia. Here is is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY

 

It sounds increasingly like it's a failing Pokey yes.

 

I totally agree with regards to sourcing a standalone Pokey rather than killing a working A8 machine.

 

However I mean sourcing a spare A8 machine which is known to be failing itself and is cheap, or one that is untested and cheap - rather than taking a working one and rendering it non working for the sake of it's Pokey.

 

As I say if you can get a Hong Kong made Atari 800XL you can borrow the pokey from it, and at some stage- down the line perhaps you'll be able to replace said pokey.

 

Bottom line - you just won't get a standalone Pokey chip for £20 in the UK in my experience.  You might be able to get one from a 7800 cart, but the only game carts they came in are actually often sought after and expensive. Worse, once you remove the Pokey (without damaging it), afaik the 7800 cart is redundant.

 

I can keep an eye out for broken or untested Atari 800XLs  - as can yourself - on Ebay. 

 

 

Edited January 11 by Beeblebrox

[LaunderMan2008]

I could get an Atari computer and if everything else works i can put a socket in both and when I want to use the computer without the POKEY I can yoink the POKEY from the other computer to use that one and vice versa

Edited January 11 by LaunderMan2008
In instead of I

[Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

I could get an Atari computer and if everything else works i can put a socket in both and when I want to use the computer without the POKEY I can yoink the POKEY from the other computer to use that one and vice versa

yup. You could. Although overtime, and depending on which socket used and how many times you do this - the pokey legs and or sockets might suffer.

 

 

[LaunderMan2008]

I could install ZIF sockets into the sockets if they fit inside the computer case, if they don’t I can just solder the ZIFs on and when a 2nd POKEY comes from somewhere I could just pull out the ZIF sockets and install the normal sockets and put in the POKEYs.

 

ZIF means Zero Force Insertion, it won’t ruin chips, legs or sockets.

[Beeblebrox]

25 minutes ago, LaunderMan2008 said:

I could install ZIF sockets into the sockets if they fit inside the computer case, if they don’t I can just solder the ZIFs on and when a 2nd POKEY comes from somewhere I could just pull out the ZIF sockets and install the normal sockets and put in the POKEYs.

 

ZIF means Zero Force Insertion, it won’t ruin chips, legs or sockets.

yup, familiar with zif. It could I guess work in principal if they have the same 2.54MM spacing, are 40pin, and the stack height allows for the zif plus pokey chip and the keyboard to fit and case close.

 

Of course what you could find is you source another Atari 8 bit (again ideally an 800XL Hong kong made or 600XL) but it also has issues. In that respect make sure the seller shows it working. (A lot of Ebay sellers state tested working and all they have done is plug in the power and seen a red light).