Curt Vendel Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 How come Atari users got cheated out of the best RPG series in classic gaming (ok my biased opinion)? I played them all on my Apple back in the day, but when I went to go look for them for my Atari I discovered that they were never made! Was the Atari 8-bit line too antiquated by the time BT came out that Interplay didn't bother or was it something else? Tempest EA went sour on Atari very early on, damned shame too as I loved Archon a lot when they produced it under Free-Fall associates. Bard's tale is a very cool game, Kings Quest however was also very good, however it too was not developed on the Atari 8bits. Have you ever played Guild of Thieves or The Pawn ??? They were a pair of THE BEST graphics adventures ever on the 8bits IMHO. Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Have you ever played Guild of Thieves or The Pawn ??? They were a pair of THE BEST graphics adventures ever on the 8bits IMHO. No I haven't. Weren't those by Rainbird? I think I've heard of them. I guess the main thing I like about Bards Tale were all the classes (lots of variety and possibilities) and the 4 letter spell system (I STILL remember 90% of them to this day). Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Except that Alternate Reality didn't have a plot. Take the plot away from an RPG and all you have is a fantasy survival simulator. Just because an RPG is open-ended and nonlinear doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 You know, there was plenty of piracy on the Apple II and C64. Maybe the publishers blamed it on piracy but it was far more than that... First, I heard that Commodore signed multi-year contracts before the crash so that some publishers were releasing games solely out of obligation to the contract when they probably were going to break even at best. Also, the Tramiels shat on the 8-bit userbase after they came on. They did the absolute minimum to keep the 8-bit platform going on life-support while they poured all their enthusiasm into the STs, trying to drag their own real userbase kicking and screaming to the new platform. Don't you think this had some kind of influence on the software publishers if the parent company is treating the older platform like some kind of eyesore they'd rather have fade away? I think it was one version of AtariWriter, I think Atariwriter 80 for the XEP-80, that was released only due to petition from the 8-bit userbase. I think there were more than one software product that only reached the market due to user pressure on the Tramiels. If Atari Corp wouldn't even put any effort into making software for their own platform, how can anybody expect 3rd parties to? And look at the XEGS catalog. Instead of making a lot of new games, most of them were licensed disk-based games from other 3rd parties ported over to run on cartridges. In 1983, Atari Inc was running ads with Alan Alda etc... promoting the XLs. The platform did not become obsolete just two years later. The initial wave of 16-bit machines were an order of magnitude more expensive than 8-bit platforms (ST inclusive). I think the C=64's biggest sales year must have been 84 or 85. People left game consoles and went to home computers. I don't think there was any great backlash against Atari, just the 2600, because of the glut of 3rd party games. The 8-bit had no real glut of crappy games, no E.T. equivalent. I gladly migrated from the 2600 to the Atari home computers and never felt burned by Atari. The Tramiels chose to allow the 8-bit userbase to dwindle at a time when they could have tried to migrate over the remaining disgruntled 2600 gamers, most of which probably went over to the C=64. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Just because an RPG is open-ended and nonlinear doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an RPG -- pen-and-paper or computer -- that didn't have a single quest or ultimate goal. Even Temple of Apshai is more of an RPG than AR: The City. It at least gives you the goal of, "Clear out each dungeon, and gather as much loot as you can." AR: The City, on the other hand, gives you no direction at all. It's nothing but wandering around fighting, eating, and sleeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Zylon, AR The City is as you describe, however if all the modules were released there would be series of quests or decisions you could make. 1. Try to escape the 'Alien World' you were living on 2. Become King of the land (city and such) There were some other possible routes you could take to enahnce yourself (The Arena and Wilderness) Unfort the additional modules never made it out hence the only thing you could do was build your character in the City such that you could get some revenege on the Aliens in the dungeon. I think its unfair to judge the city as a standalone since its purpose was not as a standalone game but a building blcok to a much larger RPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I think it's unfair to judge a game on anything but its own merits. Note that I've never said The City isn't fun. Just that, as an RPG, it's crippled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eidolon Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I think that this boils down to a semantic argument. Most computer RPG's have a strong plot element, and very little role playing (assuming the personality of your character and making decisions accordingly). AR The city has virtually no plot as a stand-alone game (though an interesting back story) but considerable opportunity for role-playing. In some sense I identify with my characters in AR far more than in a typical hack-and-slash CRPG, and make decisions more in the line as if they were a real person. The numerous unknowns and hidden features of the game encourage role-playing because you never know which actions may have an effect on the game. Pen and paper RPG's may or may not have a plot. Plenty of not-so-bad campaigns are just about gaining power and adapting to a hostile environment without much of an overall plot. --The Eidolon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 It's indeed unfortunate that "CRPG" hasn't caught on in general to distinguish between pen-and-paper RPGs and computer-based RPGs. Fortunately the distinction can usually be made from the context. As to what makes a "true" CRPG, the simplest definition is to go to the origin of the genre-- transplanting D&D-style adventures onto a computer. Naturally a computer isn't as adaptable as a human dungeon-master, so the range of interaction and improvisation got limited quite a bit. Nonetheless, the core of the experience was still there-- you start a character from scratch, then build it up and customize it to suit your playing style. Your character choices affect how you go about your tasks. "Role-playing", in the sense of imposing a distinct personality on your character's actions, is entirely possible with a great number of RPGs. Heck, even some non-RPGs allow deep role-playing. Look at the excellent game "Thief". In it you play a thief. Every mission gives you specific objectives-- usually to steal something. Seems pretty cut-and-dried, but there's a surprising degree of latitude for personal expression. You can be a stealthy thief who sticks to the shadows and harms no one, or a slaughtering lunatic. You can knock out servants and leave them in bed with the lady of the house. You can steal a key off a guard and lock him in his own guard tower. You can replace that priceless scepter with a loaf of bread. You can drop sensitive documents on the street for anyone to find. And so on and so on. Errr, sorry about that. I'm a bit of a Thief fan. My point is that multiple solutions and freedom to manipulate the environment can spontaneously yield all sorts of "role-playing" behaviors. Anyway, would I be correct in guessing that the "plotless" campaigns you mentioned still had a "win" condition? That would still be more than The City has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 i like AR:the city and played it many hours... bought straight from the US the dungeon and was cought...i wasn't too much into the city as i missed a goal...except building your character... (so actually it has a goal... ) a friend of mine played the city for months and was proud how strong his character was and he always showed me the monsters he discoverd like the dragon (? can't remember... but i guess it was a big dragon) the raining was nicely done... and guilds and the shops...so actually it was nicely done... i personally found the dungeon more appealing as it had missions, goals etc... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eidolon Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 In response to ZylonBane's question: Some of the pen and paper RPG's I played don't have anything that I would consider a win condition either. Just explore an area, defeat monsters, gain power and items, and move on when you feel done. For example, one of the most famous classic D&D modules, "The Keep on the Borderlands" (B1 for all of us D&D nerds) has next to no plot, no real boss or win condition, just a network of caves to explore and kill different types of monsters as in intro adventure to allow a low level party to gain experience. To me, this is quite similar in style to AR: The City. To be honest, I think The City would have been a much better game if it had included more of a plot, and if I had known how little there was to accomplish aside from wandering around killing stuff, the game might not have held my attention quite so much as it did. But still, it comes very close in my definition to the essence on an CRPG. By the way, as far as I know, there were only small green dragons in the City. The big dragon was from the Dungeon. --The Eidolon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Some of the pen and paper RPG's I played don't have anything that I would consider a win condition either. Just explore an area, defeat monsters, gain power and items, and move on when you feel done. So it's kind of like The City then? Just keep playing until you get bored with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keir Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Bard's Tale rules! *casts MIBL on all who criticize The Bard's Tale* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted October 24, 2003 Author Share Posted October 24, 2003 *casts MIBL on all who criticize The Bard's Tale* That was always one of my favs. Probably because it hit all groups. Sorcerers rule! Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DarkLord Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 *casts MIBL on all who criticize The Bard's Tale* That was always one of my favs. Probably because it hit all groups. Sorcerers rule! Tempest 427043[/snapback] I always liked putting a Wind Dragon in front of my party. Personally, I liked Archmages the best! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 *casts MIBL on all who criticize The Bard's Tale* That was always one of my favs. Probably because it hit all groups. Sorcerers rule! Tempest 427043[/snapback] I always liked putting a Wind Dragon in front of my party. Personally, I liked Archmages the best! :-) 1027257[/snapback] You are going to make me break out my Apple 2c to play it. I dont have time for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorclu Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Loved a lot of the stuff that EA did for the 8-bits. I collect the album sleeves the games came in by them, and the infocom boxes. And yeh, seems the development world kinda jumped ship from the 8-bit to the ST. LOL! So interesting to see all the developers that were on the 8-bit, then the ST, and how the face and attitude of the ST changed in about three to four years, different development based, etc. It's like the ST managed to stop being treated as a grown up Atari 8-bit and more like the totally different machine it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 *casts MIBL on all who criticize The Bard's Tale* That was always one of my favs. Probably because it hit all groups. Sorcerers rule! Tempest 427043[/snapback] I always liked putting a Wind Dragon in front of my party. Personally, I liked Archmages the best! :-) 1027257[/snapback] Yeah the Bard's tale was a great RPG. It was REALLY good use of the graphics capabilities of the APPLE II on the Apple version too. There were a bunch of RPGs on the atari 8-bit. Ultima I-IV, Phantasie, etc. I guess from a graphics & sound standpoint, Alternate Reality has got to be "the king" of RPGs on the ATARI 8-bit. Id love to see someone try to do that on the Apple. Ive seen screenshots of all the different "versions" of that game, and I dont think any of the other versions were nearly as polished as the ATARI 8-bit version. Also, another one that really stands out in my mermory was "Legacy of the Ancients" on C=64. I remember playing that game for the first time and marveling at the fact that you could hear your "foot fall" as you walked through the dungeon, and you could see the torchlight "flickering" on the walls. They should have made that for the ATARI 8-bit as well. No doubt, the Bard's tale series would have been a great addition to the ATARI 8-bit RPG game world, but Im not too let down by the fact that it never made it. I own a complete Apple II system, ans well as a complete C= 128 system, so I can play the versions of all those games that WERE released, any time I want. The BEST all around RPG available for the Apple, in my oppinion was WIZARDRY by SIR-TECH. The game engine was fast and efficient, the multi-character party system was handled extremely well, and it was a great game to play with a group of people and keep their faces glued to the computer screen for hours on end. SIR-TECH never supported the ATARI 8-bit, and I remember being let down as a kid, that they didnt. But you know what's wierd? If you watch the old 80s cheeze-movie, "Real Genius", theres a scene where the dorky guy, Kent is playing Wizardry on what looks like a 130xe!!! (its the scene where they gassed him to knock him out, so they could implant the little micro reciever device in his teeth and transmit voices inside his head.) Only thing I can think is they must have had an apple or PC hooked up to the screen, and were just showing the 130xe on the desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DarkLord Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 You are going to make me break out my Apple 2c to play it. I dont have time for that. 1027334[/snapback] Oh no - you can't blame this addiction on me! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 DarkLord Casts Level 6 Thread Revive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DarkLord Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 DarkLord Casts Level 6 Thread Revive! 1027373[/snapback] Yeah, I know, but I couldn't help it! I was actually looking for something else and found this thread... Hard to resist - but I'm sure you guys understand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) You did dig up this dinosaur. I was buying Atari and Apple 2 stuff at the same time and notice the indifference by Atari. I hated how the kept supporting the 800 48k archetecture on the Atari but drop most II and II+ support on the Apple line. I remember getting flippies 86 onward with C64 on the opposite side. I bet they counted my sale as a C64 sale. Anyhow I spent way more money on the Atari and pirated more on the Apple and I knew better than to believe their excuses. I always thought the Atari 8bits was best of the 3 platforms, but was alway confused on why the support was so lackluster. In the waning days of the 8bit atari's I was deciding what platform to move to and did not like the STs all that much. And I kept seeing too much backwards compatibility restrictions publishers were giving themselves. They kept making 48k Single sided disk games on the 8bits and 1Meg Single sided games for the ST when the STe was out. I knew that it would not be long for the STs. Macs were just too expensive. So, I just kept using school computers in HS and College until I decided to get a Dell in 93 and have been on the upgrade treadmill ever since. I have come full circle and now brought my Ataris back to life using my PC as an peripheral. I would never have imagined that 18 years ago. I need the solution to my 5.25" disk cleaner. My bottle is all dried out. I was getting errors reading all sorts of disks on the 2C. Edited March 3, 2006 by Almost Rice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I have come full circle and now brought my Ataris back to life using my PC as an peripheral. I would never have imagined that 18 years ago. I need the solution to my 5.25" disk cleaner. My bottle is all dried out. I was getting errors reading all sorts of disks on the 2C. 1027378[/snapback] Hehehe - yeah same thing here. I'm using a 1Ghz PC as a dedicated slave "disk server" for my Atari 8 bits (w/APE) and for my C64 (with 1541emu). And hell even my TI99 and Apple II with the aid of the super SVD Who'd of thought it! As far as the cleaning solution, most of that stuff is just isopropyl (i.e. rubbing) alcohol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 As far as the cleaning solution, most of that stuff is just isopropyl (i.e. rubbing) alcohol. 1027392[/snapback] So is the cheap stuff(70%) enough? Or do I need the more expensive stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 So is the cheap stuff(70%) enough? Or do I need the more expensive stuff. 1027415[/snapback] For drive head cleaning - yeah it's fine. I've used it for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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