Experimental 2600+ Firmware and Dumper

[Atariboy]

Out of curiosity since I've not seen anything about it in recent months, is 1080p output still being looked at?

[Ampersound]

Thanks for the new firmware update and dumper. I had gone to r3 previously seeing Pitfall2 was fixed so ordered a Pitfall2 cart from in the US which arrived to the uk yesterday only to find it didn't work. I was gutted and looked to find r4 was available. Upgraded and boom fully working. So very happy!!

[shane857]

13 hours ago, MarcinJ said:

Here is how my PAL version looks like.  With 1.0 it would not dump the cartridge. Now, it dumps, but clearly the game is corrupted. I cleaned it today a few times.

IMG_2973.mov 67.55 MB · 8 downloads  

 

Very strange 🤔. How did you clean the cart, q-tip and isopropyl? I would try updating to Revision 4 and see if that fixes it.

If it still won't boot the cart is probably corrupted.

[Brad_from_the_80s]

9 hours ago, Ampersound said:

Thanks for the new firmware update and dumper. I had gone to r3 previously seeing Pitfall2 was fixed so ordered a Pitfall2 cart from in the US which arrived to the uk yesterday only to find it didn't work. I was gutted and looked to find r4 was available. Upgraded and boom fully working. So very happy!!

Glad it's working for you, but Pitfall II does run on r3.  These Activision carts are just temperamental, especially when we first get them, clean them, and the first few times inserting them and trying to get them to load and play.  Most (not all) of them tend to get a little easier to fire up after those initial attempts, if they are cleaned well.

 

For me, playing just vintage mainstream stuff that is all working (about 130 carts), r4 doesn't seem necessary but will continue to keep my eye on progress.

[tradyblix]

You are reading this because of the design of the forum software. Enjoy. 

Edited June 20 by tradyblix
pointless post, "deleting".

[John Stamos Mullet]

18 hours ago, Atariboy said:

Out of curiosity since I've not seen anything about it in recent months, is 1080p output still being looked at?

There’s really no need for it. The original output of the 2600/7800 is 240p. You’re not gaining anything useful by upscaling to 1080 except potentially slower frame rate because the hardware has to work harder. It won’t make the games look better. In fact, the “shimmering” effect you see on vertical scrolling games like River Raid, 7800 Xevious, and 7800 Commando will look even worse, and the scaled image size will be smaller on screen than the 720p scaling.

Edited June 20 by John Stamos Mullet

[Jstick]

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

You’re not gaining anything useful by upscaling to 1080 except potentially slower frame rate because the hardware has to work harder. It won’t make the games look better.

Unfortunately, many TVs add significant lag when processing a signal at a non-native resolution.  So for example a 1080p panel with 1 frame of lag might add 3 frames with 720p or 480p.  This can make a big difference when dealing with 2600 action games (especially considering that the emulation is already adding it's own extra lag).

 

This can be tested using HDMI latency testers like the Time Sleuth (Or Mr. Laggy, if you have a MiSTer).

[John Stamos Mullet]

31 minutes ago, Jstick said:

Unfortunately, many TVs add significant lag when processing a signal at a non-native resolution.  So for example a 1080p panel with 1 frame of lag might add 3 frames with 720p or 480p.  This can make a big difference when dealing with 2600 action games (especially considering that the emulation is already adding it's own extra lag).

 

This can be tested using HDMI latency testers like the Time Sleuth (Or Mr. Laggy, if you have a MiSTer).

2 milliseconds of lag won’t matter if the emulator is running at 85% speed and frame skipping 2 or 3 frames a second because the processor can’t output full speed at 1080p. Especially with prosystem for the 7800 games which is a resource hog.

 

also - most TVs now have a native resolution of 4K, and the Rockchip board on the 2600+ absolutely can’t do 4k at full emulation speed, so the point is moot. 

Edited June 21 by John Stamos Mullet

[phoenixdownita]

8 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

2 milliseconds of lag won’t matter if the emulator is running at 85% speed and frame skipping 2 or 3 frames a second because the processor can’t output full speed at 1080p. Especially with prosystem for the 7800 games which is a resource hog.

 

also - most TVs now have a native resolution of 4K, and the Rockchip board on the 2600+ absolutely can’t do 4k at full emulation speed, so the point is moot. 

Well, 4k@60 happens to be 3x for a source 720p@60 and 2x for 1080p@60, both integer scaling, so 4k TVs have an easy time upscaling either, while 1080p panels are 1.5x 720p and upscaling that is not as simple (blend vs drop etc…).
480p@60 of old line doublers is also not ideal either as it requires 1.5x to go to 720 and 2.25 to go to 1080.

 

But yes if the emulation already drops frames it doesn’t matter.

[John Stamos Mullet]

5 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Well, 4k@60 happens to be 3x for a source 720p@60 and 2x for 1080p@60, both integer scaling, so 4k TVs have an easy time upscaling either, while 1080p panels are 1.5x 720p and upscaling that is not as simple (blend vs drop etc…).
480p@60 of old line doublers is also not ideal either as it requires 1.5x to go to 720 and 2.25 to go to 1080.

 

But yes if the emulation already drops frames it doesn’t matter.

None of those resolutions scale the output of the 2600 evenly, because it's 266 lines (or less, depending on the game). If the 2600 and 7800 always output 240 exactly, none of this would be an issue. But it doesn't. That's why you see the wavy/shimmer effect on vertical scrolling games, because it's not a divisible integer scale. It's a compromise.

 

When you add that to the fact that the Rockchip board just barely runs these emulators at full speed at 720, and does already lag on 1080... best to give the games horsepower, rather than crisp edges, when a significant portion of users would prefer softer edges and scalines anyway.

[Jstick]

22 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

2 milliseconds of lag won’t matter if the emulator is running at 85% speed and frame skipping 2 or 3 frames a second because the processor can’t output full speed at 1080p. Especially with prosystem for the 7800 games which is a resource hog.

To clarify, 1 frame = 16ms, 3 frames = 48ms.

 

7 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Well, 4k@60 happens to be 3x for a source 720p@60 and 2x for 1080p@60, both integer scaling, so 4k TVs have an easy time upscaling either, while 1080p panels are 1.5x 720p and upscaling that is not as simple (blend vs drop etc…).

For whatever reason, many 4k TVs counterintuitively still add processing to non-native resolutions even when an "easy" integer scale would be expected.  This is one of the reasons why the Retrotink 4K is in demand, to scale and output old consoles at 4K native resolution and remove any addition processing by the TV's scaler.

[John Stamos Mullet]

35 minutes ago, Jstick said:

To clarify, 1 frame = 16ms, 3 frames = 48ms.

 

You didn’t need to clarify it. That was the entire point I was making. Adding marginally higher resolution to the output that serves zero purpose for the point of graphics clarity or presentation quality, at the expense of processing power, takes you in exactly the opposite direction you’re aiming for here. They already had to add a ton of optimizations just to get games like H.E.R.O. , among others, to run at full speed at 720p without stutter. 

Edited June 21 by John Stamos Mullet

[Atariboy]

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

2 milliseconds of lag won’t matter if the emulator is running at 85% speed and frame skipping 2 or 3 frames a second because the processor can’t output full speed at 1080p. Especially with prosystem for the 7800 games which is a resource hog.

 

also - most TVs now have a native resolution of 4K, and the Rockchip board on the 2600+ absolutely can’t do 4k at full emulation speed, so the point is moot. 

Besides the input lag issue that Jstick raised, it also matters since many 4K televisions visually butcher 720p gaming sources by over-processing them these days in some mistaken effort by manufacturers to make lower resolution sources more attractive. It didn't have to be that way (as phoenixdownita says, 720p can be integer scaled to 4K), but that's the reality of the situation for people wanting to enjoy the 2600+, HDMI equipped plug & plays, the Retro USB AVS, etc.

 

And even on a 1080p display, Stella on my PC at 1080p does look sharper to my eyes than the 2600+ (Or Retron '77) connected to the same screen. The slightly softer look really doesn't matter (and frankly, probably is better for most 2600 games), but I do see a difference.

 

For me since I've not yet made the jump to 4K in my own household (and hopefully when I do, I'll have a Retrotink 4K by then if I find 720p sources are scaled unsatisfactory), I'm mostly just curious since 1080p was something that was on their radar and being actively tested earlier, but not mentioned since then.

Edited June 21 by Atariboy

[Trebor]

5 minutes ago, Atariboy said:

Besides the input lag issue that Jstick raised, it also matters since many 4K televisions visually butcher 720p gaming sources by over-processing them these days...

Not trying to refute your personal experience, but can "many" be defined here please? 

 

I have several Samsung (4K) TVs and a Vizio (4K) in which the 2600+ provides a crystal clear, sharp picture, and animates silky smooth.  No noticeable or gameplay impacting delays (AKA lag) experienced whatsoever.  In fact, I had one of my best games of Kaboom! with a set of new CX30+ Paddles under the 2600+. 

 

The only adjustment I made from the display defaults was turning off "Contrast Enhancer" under the "Picture" --> "Expert Settings" section of the Samsung TVs integrated Menu, as it was making the image slightly too dark on the lowest end of the luminance scale and a tad too saturated overall.

 

[Atariboy]

I'm not a 4K tv owner, but what I hear at places like My Life in Gaming, RetroRGB, the Shmups forums, and so on doesn't paint a rosy picture in general for the job that 4K upscaling algorithms do with 720p sources.

 

That said, I suspect even the underperformers in this area aren't going to hurt the 2600+ visually. It seems to me that it's going to be higher resolution and more detailed 720p sources where one is more likely to notice the alleged issues that seem commonplace (I'm trying to be transparent here and make it clear that I'm not going off my own experiences, since where 4K televisions are concerned I only have 2nd hand information to pass on since I've not made that upgrade as of yet).

 

So while probably an issue with something like a PS3 game that doesn't support 1080p (of which many earlier ones didn't), I tend to agree now that I've thought about it more that it's likely not a problem for 2600 games. If latency is good and the forced heavy processing of 720p doesn't cause weird problems such as with heavy flickering in some 2600 games, the stories I hear are probably a non-issue for 4K tv owners wanting to enjoy their 2600+.

 

Perhaps one might notice something in more visually detailed 7800 games, but who knows? Most of us aren't putting pixels under a magnifying glass like some of the big YouTube channels do (or many of the folks at the Shmups forum). If it looks right from a normal viewing distance, that's what matters.

Edited June 21 by Atariboy

[Trebor]

3 minutes ago, Atariboy said:

I'm not a 4K tv owner, but what I hear at places like My Life in Gaming, RetroRGB, the Shmups forums, and so on doesn't paint a rosy picture in general for the job that 4K upscaling algorithms do with 720p sources.

 

That said, I suspect even the underperformers in this area aren't going to hurt the 2600+ visually. It seems to me that it's going to be higher resolution and more detailed 720p sources where one is more likely to notice the alleged issues that seem commonplace (I'm trying to be transparent here and make it clear that I'm not going off my own experiences, since where 4K televisions are concerned I only have 2nd hand information to pass on since I've not made that upgrade as of yet).

 

So while probably an issue with something like a PS3 game that doesn't support 1080p (of which many earlier ones didn't), I tend to agree now that I've thought about it more that it's likely not a problem. If latency is good and the forced heavy processing of 720p doesn't cause weird problems such as with heavy flickering in some 2600 games, the stories I hear are probably a non-issue for 4K tv owners wanting to enjoy their 2600+.

Understood, and thank you for the clarification.

[RevEng]

 [removed.... redundant ☺]

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

2 milliseconds of lag won’t matter if the emulator is running at 85% speed and frame skipping 2 or 3 frames a second because the processor can’t output full speed at 1080p. Especially with prosystem for the 7800 games which is a resource hog.

For Stella this is solely an issue of the final video scaling. The emulation always processes 160x~220 pixel, which are then hardware scaled to the require output format. Only the TV effects are done in software, but these are not used anyway. So which video format is working is only a matter of the video processing capabilities.

[matatongo]

On 6/7/2024 at 7:36 PM, matatongo said:

V1.1x-r3

Soul of the Beast works.

[shane857]

Played Super Cobra earlier and the Colour/BW switch does not pause the game as it should.

[shane857]

On 6/20/2024 at 4:10 AM, Atariboy said:

Out of curiosity since I've not seen anything about it in recent months, is 1080p output still being looked at?

Personally I just connect the Atari 2600+ to an Mclassic. It increases the resolution to 1080p and I have not experienced any noticeable lag.

 

[Billiesan]

If anyone was wondering, Audacity's new game Alien Abduction works just fine on the 2600+. Just like their other game Circus Convoy.

[davy]

on my atari 2600 plus  the logo goes all over the place,

Not all the time but sometimes ?

 

i use revision 4

[mmmmbeh]

Thank you so much for getting Smurf to work on this new revision!  Now all of my carts work except for a few that I think are defective as they don't work on the Retron 77 or my actual Atari.  I have doubles of all of them and they work fine so I'm good. 

 

Now if we can just somehow get 5200 games to work....  :-p

 

[stuartelectronics]

Does anyone know how close are we to getting an official release and will there be a way to update it via mac os or linux?