reifsnyderb Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 I've a pre-release version of my modified Atari OS, I've included Wozmon as it was ported here: https://forums.atariage.com/topic/352757-atari-wozmon-for-abbuc-software-contest-2023/ Currently, I've been using Shift/Control/W to enter Wozmon. @kenames99 has been using the OS and discovered that Shift/Control/W also conflicts with the write file command in Action. Are there any good key combinations still available? i.e. Shift/Control/Esc ? Thanks! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matosimi Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Not sure what you mean by 'available', however generally there are like 10 keys that are inaccessible together with control+shift key combination. See the bottom section of the following table: https://www.atariarchives.org/c3ba/page004.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted May 3 Author Share Posted May 3 16 minutes ago, matosimi said: Not sure what you mean by 'available', however generally there are like 10 keys that are inaccessible together with control+shift key combination. See the bottom section of the following table: https://www.atariarchives.org/c3ba/page004.php I guess what I really mean is what isn't used by some other software? i.e. Is control/shift/esc used by anything? etc. (I use that very table for hardware key codes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mono Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Look at the bottom of this site http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Kody_klawiszy There is a table with all keycodes and greyed out ones are unavailable with combination of both SHIFT and CONTROL keys. Add $40 for SHIFT and $80 for CONTROL to achieve final keycode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) The default OS doesn't use any such combinations. Avoid Shift-Ctrl-A as it generates code $FF which is the default no key condition. Conflict - you're dealing with a case of these combinations only being used by addon software or system mods. Where do you see your own usage case in the overall totem pole situation? I guess if it's application software then you're down the order a bit from something like an OS or driver. But you're talking about an OS and monitor so you're just about top of the tree here. Still it would be nice to be able to have no conflicts. I guess you know of the invalid combinations that just don't do anything? They coincide with the keys that appear on the same rows as Shift and Ctrl. That being Help, BVCXZ and JKL;+* I'd also tend to give Shift-Ctrl-ESC a miss - it's fine on normal hardware but not on Windows based emulation. Edited May 3 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted May 3 Author Share Posted May 3 2 minutes ago, Rybags said: The default OS doesn't use any such combinations. Avoid Shift-Ctrl-A as it generates code $FF which is the default no key condition. Conflict - you're dealing with a case of these combinations only being used by addon software or system mods. Where do you see your own usage case in the overall totem pole situation? I guess if it's application software then you're down the order a bit from something like an OS or driver. But you're talking about an OS and monitor so you're just about top of the tree here. Still it would be nice to be able to have no conflicts. I guess you know of the invalid combinations that just don't do anything? They coincide with the keys that appear on the same rows as Shift and Ctrl. That being Help, BVCXZ and JKL;+* The usage case is that Wozmon is installed in the OS and I would like to avoid conflicts with other software. (i.e. shift/control/w conflicting with Action) I am aware of invalid combinations that don't do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 I can't think of a lot of software that uses such combinations. I do remember the word from Atari when XL came out was that software using the Help key would allow alternate key combinations to allow legacy compatibility, though can't particularly name any titles that even used Help (maybe AtariWriter?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) "XLFriend" from Quick Assembler uses Shift+Control+1, 2, 3 and 4. "E", a simple text editor published in Tajemnice Atari 4/91, uses Shift+Control+Esc, < and >. The OS allows to change key definitions via KEYDEF and FKDEF. I guess you could extend this to support Shift+Control combinations too, to allow the user to adjust them to their liking. Also remember that you can use console keys and Break in combination with other keys. Edited May 3 by Kr0tki 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 5 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: Currently, I've been using Shift/Control/W to enter Wozmon. That's the default shortcut for setting the screen width in my word processor, The Last Word. Since applications are free to use the available SHIFT+CTRL+key combos, expect conflicts. One workaround (as already suggested above) can be to use one of the console keys as a modifier (say, SELECT+SHIFT+CTRL+key), but bascially, if your OS can use it, so can something else. Edited May 3 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGB1718 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Just a thought, instead of CTRL/SHFT/KEY combinations, why not use multiple keystrokes (not using the normal key repeat) in quick succession i.e. ESC+ESC I doubt very much that anything uses that sort of trigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 8 minutes ago, TGB1718 said: Just a thought, instead of CTRL/SHFT/KEY combinations, why not use multiple keystrokes (not using the normal key repeat) in quick succession i.e. ESC+ESC I doubt very much that anything uses that sort of trigger It's a good idea - some kind of escape sequence. In retrospect, I would do something like that in the text editor, since I've grown to dislike keyboards overloaded with functionality (it's too easy to accidentally press something and silently activate some mode or change a setting without realising it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Not really valid at the OS level though. If it was an end user application then it would be. Maybe Option+Select+ key would be a better choice. Console key + Shift or Ctrl and another key would be tricky for some combinations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 esc esc is used in basic programs very often, NEXT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfdbg Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 16 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: Currently, I've been using Shift/Control/W to enter Wozmon. @kenames99 has been using the OS and discovered that Shift/Control/W also conflicts with the write file command in Action. Are there any good key combinations still available? i.e. Shift/Control/Esc ? Available for what? Some programs use these keys, or at least those of the Ctrl+Shift combinations that work - some do not due to limitations of the hardware. Personally, I have seen Ctrl+Shift+Esc in use by DDT if I recall correctly, and my disk monitor ("Holmes") uses Ctrl+Shift W/S/E/D to move the cursor and Ctrl+Shift+Return to finish editing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted May 3 Author Share Posted May 3 2 minutes ago, thorfdbg said: Available for what? Some programs use these keys, or at least those of the Ctrl+Shift combinations that work - some do not due to limitations of the hardware. Personally, I have seen Ctrl+Shift+Esc in use by DDT if I recall correctly, and my disk monitor ("Holmes") uses Ctrl+Shift W/S/E/D to move the cursor and Ctrl+Shift+Return to finish editing. Available.....as in a good choice to use because it isn't used by anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matosimi Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Also CMC is using several of these key combinations: ... But why don't you then assign like whole line of keyboard keys and use whatever works? I'm pretty sure there will be barely noone else doing what you are, so I would not take care about SW I don't use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teapot Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 How about storing the keycode in the $2xx-$3xx database area? Then you can have a sensible default and still allow somebody to change it in the rare case of overlapping usage. Assuming, of course, there's still a spare reserved byte in there somewhere you can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 11 hours ago, matosimi said: Also CMC is using several of these key combinations: ... But why don't you then assign like whole line of keyboard keys and use whatever works? I'm pretty sure there will be barely noone else doing what you are, so I would not take care about SW I don't use. If I can use a combination that no other software uses, that's a win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Available Shift/Control/key combinations ? Textpro 5.x says: None. They are all in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 13 minutes ago, Teapot said: How about storing the keycode in the $2xx-$3xx database area? Then you can have a sensible default and still allow somebody to change it in the rare case of overlapping usage. Assuming, of course, there's still a spare reserved byte in there somewhere you can use. While possible, it would be somewhat pointless as one of the conflicts is with the Action! cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said: Textpro 5.x says: None. They are all in use. I don't recall TextPro using any SHIFT+CTRL combinations at all, since everything had to be accessible from the macro processor and there was no mechanism there to represent such key codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Ah yes, I mis-remembered ! Looked at the Textpro 4.x and 5.x diskettes again and its Select+Control+key (not Shift+Control+key, like I thought). But I think there was an A8 texteditor / word-processor that had Shift+Control+key combinations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 40 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said: But I think there was an A8 texteditor / word-processor that had Shift+Control+key combinations... Yes - aside from my own - I think there were several (Paperclip, First XLEnt, Superscript, perhaps). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cougar Posted May 7 Share Posted May 7 almost makes me glad I dont do any coding. Having to worry about every key combo ever used or will ever be used in the future sounds like a lot of fun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 7 Share Posted May 7 Mr. Atari had sheet of what's what at some point so he could pick the best for his MyBIOS and MyIDE suites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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