Loading .3ds files to Jaguar SDK?

[Cobra!]

Hey,

 

I've been getting into jag development and saw the Jaguar SDK includes a 3D demo, and it takes 3ds files. I tried to import the files into Blender 2.79b, change them a little, then re-export them, and it complains the 3ds file has no scale?

3dsconv -o castle.s castle.3ds
3dsconv: castle.3ds has no scale.
make: *** [Makefile:29: castle.o] Errore 1

 

So I try to use Bryce 7 instead, as that has a 3ds exporter, and that compiles, but shows nothing.

I found an old thread that seems to have the same issue, but it never got resolved.

 

So what tools should I be using to make 3ds files the SDK is happy with?

[+cubanismo]

I've never tried converting my own files. I would guess the most reliable method would be using an ancient version of 3D studio Max from the 90s.

[Cobra!]

On 5/16/2024 at 12:34 AM, cubanismo said:

I've never tried converting my own files. I would guess the most reliable method would be using an ancient version of 3D studio Max from the 90s.

Will look into that, but I'm not sure if they're legal to use for commercial work.

Edited May 18 by Cobra!

[alucardX]

22 hours ago, cubanismo said:

I've never tried converting my own files. I would guess the most reliable method would be using an ancient version of 3D studio Max from the 90s.

That's never the answer anyone wants to hear 🤪

 

I feel like someone here was working on their own tool for 3d meshes. Dr. Typo maybe?

[+cubanismo]

Yeah, the format isn't at all complex. Maybe I can add Jaguar support for my Nuon MGL blender export plugin at some point

[Cobra!]

21 hours ago, cubanismo said:

Yeah, the format isn't at all complex. Maybe I can add Jaguar support for my Nuon MGL blender export plugin at some point

That would be a massive help!

 

What can I use in the meantime?

Edited May 17 by Cobra!

[Cobra!]

Have downloaded and installed 3D Studio max 2.5 on my Windows 98 PC and loaded up the castle file, deleted the castle and then re-exported it just to test it. It worked.

I was planning to make a game for the Jaguar Game Jam, and I believe their rules say you can only use assets and tools you're allowed to use for commercial projects. I imagine ancient versions of 3DS Max are abandonware, but would they be safe to use commercially?

Edited May 18 by Cobra!

[agradeneu]

33 minutes ago, Cobra! said:

Have downloaded and installed 3D Studio max 2.5 on my Windows 98 PC and loaded up the castle file, deleted the castle and then re-exported it just to test it. It worked.

I was planning to make a game for the Jaguar Game Jam, and I believe their rules say you can only use assets and tools you're allowed to use for commercial projects. I imagine ancient versions of 3DS Max are abandonware, but would they be safe to use commercially?

I guess the problem would be using the Atari renderer and source code, not using modern tools for creating assets.

[OVERRiDE]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I guess the problem would be using the Atari renderer and source code, not using modern tools for creating assets.

Would you classify a program running on Windows 98 a modern tool? Haha.  Anyway I thought the atari source code was all public domain after Hasbro took over in the late 90's?  

[+CyranoJ]

4 minutes ago, OVERRiDE said:

Would you classify a program running on Windows 98 a modern tool? Haha.  Anyway I thought the atari source code was all public domain after Hasbro took over in the late 90's?  

 

Nope.

[OVERRiDE]

On 5/15/2024 at 2:48 PM, Cobra! said:

Hey,

 

I've been getting into jag development and saw the Jaguar SDK includes a 3D demo, and it takes 3ds files. I tried to import the files into Blender 2.79b, change them a little, then re-export them, and it complains the 3ds file has no scale?

3dsconv -o castle.s castle.3ds
3dsconv: castle.3ds has no scale.
make: *** [Makefile:29: castle.o] Errore 1

 

So I try to use Bryce 7 instead, as that has a 3ds exporter, and that compiles, but shows nothing.

I found an old thread that seems to have the same issue, but it never got resolved.

 

So what tools should I be using to make 3ds files the SDK is happy with?

The 3DS format is a human readable structure, very similar to JSON from what I remember.  I encourage you to understand this format if you really want to make a game of this.  

 

I would compare the output from Blender against the working model in a code (text) editor and determine what's missing from the Blender output.  Next I would likely write a script to apply the needed attributes ( i.e. scale = 1.0 ) to each vertex in the model as a post process after exporting from Blender.

 

I would not go the Windows 98 route, I imagine that would be a miserable experience and I would much rather put a bit of effort in getting modern tools to work.

 

Good luck man!

[agradeneu]

54 minutes ago, OVERRiDE said:

Would you classify a program running on Windows 98 a modern tool? Haha.  Anyway I thought the atari source code was all public domain after Hasbro took over in the late 90's?  

The question and your reaction is rather bizarre. The rules say you can use any tool. However, importing 3d meshes into the atari 3d renderer ist probably not complying with the rules of original game and respecting intellectual property?

[Cobra!]

57 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The question and your reaction is rather bizarre. The rules say you can use any tool. However, importing 3d meshes into the atari 3d renderer ist probably not complying with the rules of original game and respecting intellectual property?

Aw, so I wouldn't be able to use this SDK for the jam? The game jam page mentions the SDK as a route to making a Jaguar game without adding any caveats, so surely it's okay, right?

  

1 hour ago, OVERRiDE said:

The 3DS format is a human readable structure, very similar to JSON from what I remember.  I encourage you to understand this format if you really want to make a game of this.  

 

I would compare the output from Blender against the working model in a code (text) editor and determine what's missing from the Blender output.  Next I would likely write a script to apply the needed attributes ( i.e. scale = 1.0 ) to each vertex in the model as a post process after exporting from Blender.

Apparently not? I tried to open it up with Notepadqq (The Linux equivalent to Notepad++) and I just get garbage.

 

Edited May 18 by Cobra!

[OVERRiDE]

1 hour ago, OVERRiDE said:

The 3DS format is a human readable structure, very similar to JSON from what I remember.  I encourage you to understand this format if you really want to make a game of this.  

 

I would compare the output from Blender against the working model in a code (text) editor and determine what's missing from the Blender output.  Next I would likely write a script to apply the needed attributes ( i.e. scale = 1.0 ) to each vertex in the model as a post process after exporting from Blender.

 

I would not go the Windows 98 route, I imagine that would be a miserable experience and I would much rather put a bit of effort in getting modern tools to work.

 

Good luck man!

My mistake, I was thinking of .OBJ models... its been 8 years since I've done any 3D programming.

 

Yeah 3DS is a binary format.  Not sure how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go, but this article gives you basically everything you would need to write your own parser https://www.gamedev.net/forums/topic/313126-3ds-parsing-tutorial/#google_vignette

[OVERRiDE]

55 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The question and your reaction is rather bizarre. The rules say you can use any tool. However, importing 3d meshes into the atari 3d renderer ist probably not complying with the rules of original game and respecting intellectual property?

No offense intended.  I was making a joke that he mentions he is using a tool on Windows 98 and your response was that modern tools are fine to use 🤣

[agradeneu]

37 minutes ago, Cobra! said:

 The game jam page mentions the SDK as a route to making a Jaguar game without adding any caveats, so surely it's okay, right?

  

 

 

 

Hm, ask the organizers to know for sure.  

[Cobra!]

1 hour ago, OVERRiDE said:

I would not go the Windows 98 route, I imagine that would be a miserable experience and I would much rather put a bit of effort in getting modern tools to work.

 

Good luck man!

I enjoy using Windows 98. I got a switchbox that lets me easily switch between my Linux computer to Windows 98, so it's a mild inconvenience at worst.

3 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Hm, ask the organizers to know for sure.  

Might as well.

 

"Respect Intellectual property" on the jam page seems to only refer to making ports of existing games you don't own the rights to?

Edited May 18 by Cobra!

[+CyranoJ]

6 hours ago, Cobra! said:

Aw, so I wouldn't be able to use this SDK for the jam? The game jam page mentions the SDK as a route to making a Jaguar game without adding any caveats, so surely it's okay, right?

 

They allowed games to be released for the system without requiring any permission or encryption.  All their software, schematics, etc.... apparently even including the Jaguar logo.... nope.

 

The only two 100% legal libraries, afaik, are JagStudio and Removers.

[Cobra!]

2 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

The only two 100% legal libraries, afaik, are JagStudio and Removers.

Can Removers do 3D, or have any demos for it? I think you have to code your own renderer to do 3D in JagStudio?

Edited May 19 by Cobra!

[+cubanismo]

I agree you should ask the contest organizers rather than us (They're right here after all), but I personally agree it was pretty clear the rule was intended to avoid people entering e.g., their take on a Mario game in the contest. As far as Atari owning that 3D renderer, well, it'd be confusing if they didn't want someone using it to make a game for the Jaguar, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to interpreting the contest rules.

 

Regardless, cool that you got it working with an ancient version of 3dsmax!

[Cobra!]

I don’t know who exactly to contact and how to do so.
 

It does say “You are free to use whichever tool you like to create your game.” on the page. I think I’m going to go off of that for now. If there are problems down the line, I can’t imagine it’ll be on me, as I did follow what the page says.

 

I’m not quite advanced enough to write my own 3D renderer yet, so I’ll stick with SDK as the work has already been done for me there.

Edited May 19 by Cobra!

[OVERRiDE]

@CyranoJ have you ever considered adding a small set of functions to Raptor for triangle rendering? 

 

Matrix multiply ( hardware 16 bit int )

Matrix load ( push to stack )

Matrix store ( pop from stack )

Draw triangle ( even if only flat and goraud shaded ) by using currently loaded matrix

 

I think just these functions would go a long way for anyone wanting to work with 3D in a completely legal way.  Texture mapping would be great but obviously more effort to implement and will be a bigger hit on performance as we all know.

 

I imagine this wouldn't be terribly difficult for you to accomplish... I've wanted to do something like this myself but I don't have the mental capacity to learn JRISC ASM anytime soon.

 

[+CyranoJ]

No and it likely won't happen:

 

What is the frame buffer resolution?

What is the frame buffer pixel depth?

CRY or RGB?

IMULT, IMAC and RESMAC calculations are not preserved through interrupts.

Dumping values to the stack, moving them to the GPU, running a handful of instructions, returning and popping them back to the high level code... not practical.

 

The 4k GPU core is already close to full. 

 

There are only a handful of people using JagStudio (Unlike, say batari or 7800basic) and all the 'this would be nice' stuff goes in the 'make a case for it' basket.  Starting down a 3D pipeline is nowhere near the top of that list.

[Cobra!]

Made a breakthrough on the Linux side.

 

I used Blender 2.79 to export a model to dae, and then imported that into Wings3D to export back into 3ds.

I imported the radar model to re-export for testing. I had to scale it by 5 and it didn't import it into Wings3D the right way up, but it did successfully compile on JagSDK. Maybe it's just me but has the radar ever looked like this on the 3D demo?

 

Gonna do some more experimenting.

Edited May 26 by Cobra!

[+cubanismo]

Some of the models never loaded correctly. I found working versions of most of them by going through a billion copies of the 3D demo, but I didn't really understand the file format evolution back then, so it's possible I just got the wrong one for some, and for some there was only one version out there.