Is it feasible to make a new ECS expansion today?

[8bitwidgets.com]

54 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Many of them would transform the system to something different than it is or ever was intended to be.

yea i'm not suggesting that as i know you what you mean.  a system change like the opcode product isn't really interesting to me as that point it's not an intellivision anymore just a big PSU and maybe video out port..  

 

I'm just weighing if it might be possible to make a new ECS(+?) that would check the ECS boxes and maybe some other features but something that is more affordable and more readily available for option for more homebrew gamers to purchase and affordably raise the bar for what folks can experience. 

 

The opcode SGM for the coleco is my comparison..  something a lot of homebrew makers leverage and it offers some nice bumps in performance but it's still very much what the original product was going to be.  the ECS offers some neat +1 features that the rest of us don't have. 

 

56 minutes ago, carlsson said:

This is one of the features of the ECS, for people who happen to have more than one friend.

I know @DZ-Jay has a rosy outlook for the ECS availability, but I've never seen one for sale (working) for less than $250..  to me this is excessive and not a realistic price to pay for something that doesn't really bring that much more to the table..   and that's just the current casual market..  if there was ever a rush for more people to need an ECS for some new killer game that requires it..  this would only drive prices up..  the last thing I want to see.   Rare, expensive, inevitably developing problems with the keyboard wearing out from use.. etc.

 

I know there is a Fujinet coming to the intellivisions so maybe these features could find their way into that product..  this could maybe offer saving files to sd card like the Coleco Adam Fujinet does..  

 

I'm just doing a thought exercise here and seeing if it was something me and my partner might be able too create and make affordable and obtainable expansions that would be a tide to raise all ships not just an elite few who have the deeper pockets to buy ever increasingly rare hardware that is also prone to breaking as hardware gets older..   

[+Lathe26]

I was just checking to see if the ECS has shot up in price on eBay.  It doesn't look like it.  The ECS that have sold there have been around $150, with some deals occasionally being made.

[abeckett]

I have seen ECSs selling in Oz for AU$40. Happy to start hoarding them for my American friends.

 

Anthony

[+DZ-Jay]

This is just my opinion :

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

So what is the real reasons we want to expand the base system, and with what?

• More RAM. Both the LTO and the Backbit support memory maps with RAM in various slots, so if you have one of those cartridges, you're already covered.

 

Yes, more RAM!

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• More GRAM. There is a late variation of the Intellivision which supports defining more graphics symbols, and it has been tested in emulation.

 

Although I wish the Intellivision had originally included more GRAM, I don't think I care for this as much as some others.  The hardware changes required turn this one into pretty much a "not an Intellivision thing,"

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Access to more ROM. I know there are various bank switching schemes so nothing new about that.

 

Yes, more ROM!

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Higher resolution. This is what the ACC would achieve with an overlay display, but quite different from what is the Intellivision.

 

Not really an Intellivision thing.

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• More colours, redefinable palette. Not doable with the STIC and I don't think any other solution would fix this without replacing the video chip.

 

Not really an Intellivision thing.

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• More controllers. This is one of the features of the ECS, for people who happen to have more than one friend.

I think a common complaint in this forum has been that people can't play 2-player games because they don't have any friends who care about the Intellivision as much as they do.

 

I can't imagine many people are clamoring for 4 player games when they can't find a second player.

 

This is not to say we are a bunch of lonely nerds, but that the Intellivision is such a niche platform that fans of it are isolated and spread apart.  (Although we are a bunch of lonely nerds too. 😁)

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Other types of controllers: keyboard, mouse, trackball, light gun etc. I don't know how feasible those are.

 

Not really an Intellivision thing.  I see a light-gun as a limited-use device.  The kind of thing you may bring out to play the single game made for it, then put it back on the shelf to collect dust.

 

I could be wrong, but in my opinion, the kind of game play use cases that the light-gun affords are extremely limited.

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• More sound channels. Again a feature of the ECS with an extra AY chip. Could be a completely different chip too, FM synthesis etc.

 

Yes, more AY chips for extra channels!  An ECS already offers this, cartridges could offer it on-board, and it doesn't require any new or specialized skills. 

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Speech synthesis. We have the IntyVoice with its proprietary algorithms and software to program it. A different type of speech synthesis would both be more open and sound even better.

 

The Intellivoice is fine, and adding a new speech module that needs to be programmed in some specialized way is not really an Intellivision thing.

 

I don't think the Intellivoice requires proprietary software or algorithms.  Its functioning is fully documented by GI and available.  It is just that speech synthesis algorithms are not typically the sort of thing a homebrewer may carry around in their skill-set.

 

I'm sure it just takes a bright mind and some hard work and dedication to figure out.  It has been done before.  (It is outside my domain of expertise, so I don't qualify.)

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Faster CPU or co-processor. Think about the ARM in most modern Atari 2600 games, off-lifting a lot of processing. At least I imagine if one could combine with RAM and DMA (?) to blast screens to the BACKTAB, it would make a difference.

 

Not really an Intellivision thing.

 

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

• Other forms of I/O for connecting to the Internet, other types of serial etc communication, perhaps Bluetooth.

 

This could be interesting -- Internet connectivity for multi-player games and remote downloads sound like useful applications.  (It's a good way to bring lonely nerds together. 😁)

 

When I've ran the programmer's survey in the past, I believe the most commonly requested enhancements were extended RAM and ROM.  Even additional AY sound channels -- which is straightforward to do in hardware and doesn't require any new skills from programmers -- wasn't all that high in priority.

 

----

 

A lot of the things being thrown about sound interesting in theory, but at some point you have to consider how it fits within the Intellivision platform itself.

 

What I hear sometimes around here is things like, "the Intellivision is great, but it would be better if it <had a feature from another platform that is completely different>."  In other words, if it was not the Intellivision.  *shrug*

 

Most of the time such comments come from people who arrive to the community from other platforms.  It makes sense that they would like to see some of the features from their personal favorite consoles on the Intellivision.

 

At the end of the day, it is not really important what new features we add to the Intellivision, what matters is that we keep its spirit alive and the community thriving, creating new games and enjoying the old ones.

 

However, I do believe that -- just like wishing for 4-controller support when we can't barely find a second player -- adding new hardware features that require dedicated skills and practice when we barely have a handful of active programmers, may not be the best way to focus our collective energies.  Just saying ...

 

     dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

6 hours ago, Lathe26 said:

The ECS that have sold there have been around $150, with some deals occasionally being made.

I've had bad luck when I look.  also annoying that searches like "intellivision ecs" will pull up nothing and then at the bottom you see some suggested items like..   an intellivision ecs..

 

I saw that one go for under $100 back in May..  I've not really been looking often for them...

 

And let me qualify my question further.  I honestly don't want an ECS..  i know it sounds like a contradiction..  because if i buy an ECS..  what do I have?   I niche product for a niche product that doesn't do much..  a few cool demos for it but that's about it.. from what i can tell.  The idea behind making a new ECS is something people could get anytime anywhere for a reasonable price so wide adoption. 

 

So I appreciate the tips / leads on finding one, but this question is more about making something new / compact / available / affordable for the entire community and help raise the standard for what homebrew devs could achieve and still feel like it's our beloved intellivision.

 

1 hour ago, abeckett said:

I have seen ECSs selling in Oz for AU$40.

Now I'd buy it for that price.. lol.. because that's a fun price..  just to kick the tires.   though that shipping.. heh   

 

 

30 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

The hardware changes required turn this one into pretty much a "not an Intellivision thing,"

right i agree.  looking at champs games for example..  yes acceleration, but he's still working with the same sprite limits.. he just has more cpu power to drive the original hardware graphics, so in that sense it feels still like it's the atari doing something still.  

 

31 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

I think a common complaint in this forum has been that people can't play 2-player games because they don't have any friends who care about the Intellivision as much as they do.

yep... exactly..  the only reason i like new ports would be if they could have power to allow new controllers (like light guns) to be used with it, etc.  maybe hook up 2600 pong paddles up..  stuff like that.

 

32 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

I could be wrong, but in my opinion, the kind of game play use cases that the light-gun affords are extremely limited.

it is but if it were able to use a zapper or light phaser..  it would mean a reasonably low barrier for those who say made a new game for the intv that uses a light gun..  the CRT being the biggest barrier i realize, but i dunno.. crts are not that hard to come by still, even free..  this way folks are not buying a whole thing JUST for a light gun.. but just having a thing allow the option to hook one up is neat.  my zapper is already collecting dust, this would give it more opportunity to be put to use  Not a killer feature though i realize.  

 

36 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

cartridges could offer it on-board

that's cool but are those chips that readily available to make potentially 100 of them?   seems like a lot of wasted potential of one chip could be used for all games (that know to use it), but still, that is cool to realize that the cart could have the chip on it.. i see how that makes sense now, but i just didn't consider that. 

 

37 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

adding a new speech module

yea i agree.  my only thought to this would be if it could effectively replace the intellivoice..  as in..  if they became tougher to find in the wild..  that's not the case i feel currently..  but maybe down the road..   not something i'd consider a must have new thing though sine the intellivoice is still pretty common, but if it were not tough to add it..  might as well get one in there..  but i'm thinking sourcing the chips could get tough / expensive in it's own right..   the last thing a new ECS product wants to do is make itself tough to produce in ongoing quantities.  

 

40 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

to blast screens to the BACKTAB, it would make a difference.

yea i'm fine with making some enhancements to that..  as it stands some games can make smooth scrolling backgrounds while others have that choppy look..  like mission x..  that one always had a jittery feel that i could do without..   I think improving some aspects like that would be welcome.  you're still working within many of the limitations of the intellivision, you're just given a few frame rate boosts and such could be cool.  

 

43 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

Internet connectivity for multi-player games and remote downloads sound like useful applications.

right this is where the fujinet could really shine..  since it's already got a lot of that worked out.  This could help most of us lone gamers connect with folks.  The Adam computer / fujinet had a tic tac toe game i think that's online multiplayer..   

 

45 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

adding new hardware features that require dedicated skills and practice when we barely have a handful of active programmers

yea i'm with you still.  Even though I started this thread, I get what you mean and I'm only looking for low hanging fruit that could be done affordably and easily available that could give homebrew devs some ways to make games do more. 

 

Frankly the save/load of JLP alone makes the intellivision shine for homebrews..  i know the 2600 has some tech available..  but a lot of other platforms do not have any publicly available save capabilities.  This ends up being probably the biggest reason I'm still looking to stick with INTV for homebrew stuff (when I get back to it! and stop making new game hardware accessories) so yea i know it's tough to make something that doesn't cross someones line but i'm inclined to be more reserved as well on not going too far..  system changers do not appeal to me much either.  

[+DZ-Jay]

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

it is but if it were able to use a zapper or light phaser..  it would mean a reasonably low barrier for those who say made a new game for the intv that uses a light gun..  the CRT being the biggest barrier i realize, but i dunno.. crts are not that hard to come by still, even free..  this way folks are not buying a whole thing JUST for a light gun.. but just having a thing allow the option to hook one up is neat.  my zapper is already collecting dust, this would give it more opportunity to be put to use  Not a killer feature though i realize.  

 

 

That is my point:  Once a zapper game comes out .... then what?  It must be an exceptionally interesting game to motivate people to get their light-gun out of the closet and hook it up.

 

And then what?  Can a single game sustain the interest of the community?  How many distinctly interesting light-gun games can be made before they all start to look the same?

 

Where are all those programmers making lots of exciting and interesting games for light-guns in other platforms that already have them?  In my opinion it is a novelty that wears out quickly.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

that's cool but are those chips that readily available to make potentially 100 of them?   seems like a lot of wasted potential of one chip could be used for all games (that know to use it), but still, that is cool to realize that the cart could have the chip on it.. i see how that makes sense now, but i just didn't consider that. 

 

I think so.  It could also be emulated.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea i agree.  my only thought to this would be if it could effectively replace the intellivoice..  as in..  if they became tougher to find in the wild..  that's not the case i feel currently..  but maybe down the road..   not something i'd consider a must have new thing though sine the intellivoice is still pretty common, but if it were not tough to add it..  might as well get one in there..  but i'm thinking sourcing the chips could get tough / expensive in it's own right..   the last thing a new ECS product wants to do is make itself tough to produce in ongoing quantities.  

 

 

The Intellivoice is another novelty.  It is hard to make a game that requires it that does not feel contrived, and if it is not required, why would anybody bother buying a dedicated device?  It would be cool if speech synthesis were such a common feature that you could just add it to any game, even as an after-thought.

 

However, think about all that is required for it to work:

• Dedicated hardware with a large enough install-base to attract programmers to adopt it.
• Specialized skills -- voice talent, audio recording and sampling, and even programming do not come for free.  The novelty will start wearing thin when you start getting a bunch of amateur-hour sampled voices.
• Enormous amounts of ROM space to hold the speech samples -- this is space that is not available for other game assets.

 

All that ... and for what?  A novelty feature that at best slightly enhances the play experience, and at worst gets in the way or feels contrived.  Would that motivate anybody to take it out of the shelf?  Would that motivate any programmers to adopt it?

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea i'm fine with making some enhancements to that..  as it stands some games can make smooth scrolling backgrounds while others have that choppy look..  like mission x..  that one always had a jittery feel that i could do without..   I think improving some aspects like that would be welcome.  you're still working within many of the limitations of the intellivision, you're just given a few frame rate boosts and such could be cool.  

 

You misattributed the quote to which you responded to me.

 

Nonetheless, smooth scrolling is perfectly possible on the Intellivision.  Choppy or glitchy scrolling is entirely due to the programmer.  I've seen many attempts at scrolling that do not consider the way in which the STIC works, which leads to glitches.  It needs some effort and know-how, but many games have proven that it can be done.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

right this is where the fujinet could really shine..  since it's already got a lot of that worked out.  This could help most of us lone gamers connect with folks.  The Adam computer / fujinet had a tic tac toe game i think that's online multiplayer..   

 

It s an interesting idea, but I wonder how many Intellivision enthusiasts would take the time and effort to coordinate an online game of tic-tac-toe or hearts.  I mean, consider how few people actively participate in the High Score Club -- and that includes people's favourite games and does not involve time-zone and scheduling coordination.

 

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea i'm with you still.  Even though I started this thread, I get what you mean and I'm only looking for low hanging fruit that could be done affordably and easily available that could give homebrew devs some ways to make games do more. 

Low-hanging fruit: extra RAM, extra ROM (bank switching or whatever), and an additional AY chip.

 

That should cover the limitations of the platform which offer the biggest bang for your buck.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

Frankly the save/load of JLP alone makes the intellivision shine for homebrews.. 

 

I think it is nice to have, but I would imagine that programmers could utilize more memory and sound channels for a more enhanced playing experience than persistent state.  More level, more graphics, more music and sound effects, more animations, etc., will always beat being able to save your high-score or continue your game later.  At least in my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I know the 2600 has some tech available..  but a lot of other platforms do not have any publicly available save capabilities.  This ends up being probably the biggest reason I'm still looking to stick with INTV for homebrew stuff (when I get back to it! and stop making new game hardware accessories) so yea i know it's tough to make something that doesn't cross someones line but i'm inclined to be more reserved as well on not going too far..  system changers do not appeal to me much either.  

I can't really imagine that you would prefer non-volatile RAM over a larger amount of memory for game assets and variables.  In my view, NVRAM affords a very limited set of use cases, while extra ROM and RAM allows games themselves to grow to virtually infinite complexity.  Perhaps I misunderstood you.

All that being said, you know what could actually improve the home-brew scene and reduce the barriers to entry?  Programming tools and libraries.  It is not an accident that the number of homebrew games exploded the moment IntyBASIC was released.  Yet, it is still a small subset of programmers that release most games each year.

 

Newcomers still have to contend with a lot of the arcane features and limitations, such as hand-controller decoding, music programming, graphics and animations, scrolling, etc.  Offering ready-made solutions or documented guidance would greatly lower the barriers.  Oscar's books go some ways towards this, but there could be more.

 

    dZ.

[+cmadruga]

So when is your book coming, @DZ-Jay? 🙂

 

[+Lathe26]

The one other feature that the ECS offers is a half-duplex serial port (can Tx or Rx but not both at once).  It can connect to an external serial device that operates mainly in one direction (serial printer or GPS module) or to a audio tape.  Not sure if this is a big deal to add to a new ECS.

 

 

[+fdr4prez]

20 minutes ago, Lathe26 said:

The one other feature that the ECS offers is a half-duplex serial port (can Tx or Rx but not both at once).  It can connect to an external serial device that operates mainly in one direction (serial printer or GPS module) or to a audio tape.  Not sure if this is a big deal to add to a new ECS.

 

 

We can finally have the "where's my Inty?" app for when the thieves break in and steal your Intellivision.

[+DZ-Jay]

46 minutes ago, cmadruga said:

So when is your book coming, @DZ-Jay? 🙂

 

Someday …

 

Maybe I should collect all those articles and code modules that I have posted in the forum over the years, and publish them as a book.

 

 

    dZ.

[First Spear]

OK, so what if a minimally viable product was called "SubECS" (just need a name)

• Inline Intellivision plug-compatible-passthrough like an Intellivoice, in a package 1/3 size of current Intellivoice
• ECS emulation for the RAM and additional AY
• Intellivoice emulation
• On-board "space" for additional controllers if a future hobbyist so desired but otherwise no hardware
• $60

 

I think the existing ECS titles would work as if there was no keyboard (since SubECS would lack the ports hardware), and new game dev could have much better audio (IntyBASIC already supports it). And it would take less space and not need an additional PS. I agree with the idea about the light gun being a niche in a niche, maybe that's too over the top, but a small single-purpose device might be popular at a low price point. I am actually not sure if extra RAM has value in Intellivision games but if it's required for the emulation to work then 2k is probably not a barrier.  

 

[+fdr4prez]

26 minutes ago, First Spear said:

• On-board "space" for additional controllers if a future hobbyist so desired but otherwise no hardware

 

I think the existing ECS titles would work as if there was no keyboard (since SubECS would lack the ports hardware),

The ECS keyboard plugs into the 2-extra controller ports, so it doesn't use extra hardware or need a separate port.

 

So the SubECS, if it has two additional controller ports would be able to use the same ECS keyboard (or a newly built one that is made to replicate it).

 

Obviously the two added controller ports would need to have the same spacing of the controller ports as the ECS if you want to use the same ECS keyboard.

[+DZ-Jay]

1 hour ago, First Spear said:

I am actually not sure if extra RAM has value in Intellivision games but if it's required for the emulation to work then 2k is probably not a barrier.  

 

😱

 

More RAM means more space for pointers and buffers, which can accelerate processing of graphics and music, etc.

 

This is especially important on a platform (IntyBASIC, assembly) that does not support native variable scoping, which makes variable allocation fraught:  if you try to assign individual variables for every facet and object in your program, you may soon run out; so you end up reusing the variable namespace, which can introduce subtle bugs, collisions — or worse, you may need to avoid implementing some feature (or be forced to implement it in a sub-optimal way) because you ran out of variables to store data.

 

More RAM removes that concern completely.  In my game, I can dedicate record structures in RAM for sprites, animation, movement vectors; the new music tracker can keep independent state for each channel for effects and synthesis, etc.; I can use the stack for temporary storage of recursive frames without worrying too much about blowing the stack; I can mirror GRAM in RAM buffers for manipulating graphics and animation; etc.

 

I can’t imagine programmers declining more RAM, or not finding a way to utilize effectively it if it were available.

 

Perhaps it is one of those things that you only notice when you run out of it.  I have run out of it and had to make compromises in the past, so now I have embraced extra Cartridge RAM and assumed it to be there.  JLP, jzIntv, and other PCBs support it already.

 

     dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

1 hour ago, First Spear said:

I am actually not sure if extra RAM has value in Intellivision games but if it's required for the emulation to work then 2k is probably not a barrier.  

 

Oh, darn!  I see now that you probably meant the extra RAM in the ECS.  Nah, I don’t use it for anything.

 

I don’t think anybody uses that 8-bit RAM at all.  The Cartridge RAM supported by the expanded 42K memory map is 16-bits, so I use that instead.

 

    dZ.

[carlsson]

Yeah, the 2K 8-bit RAM in ECS is rather pointless today, not sure IntyBASIC supports it. 8K 16-bit RAM is quite useful though.

[8bitwidgets.com]

4 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

We can finally have the "where's my Inty?" app for when the thieves break in and steal your Intellivision.

that would be a killer feature!  must have!  

 

3 hours ago, First Spear said:

• Inline Intellivision plug-compatible-passthrough like an Intellivoice, in a package 1/3 size of current Intellivoice
• ECS emulation for the RAM and additional AY
• Intellivoice emulation
• On-board "space" for additional controllers if a future hobbyist so desired but otherwise no hardware
• $60

size isn't realistic.. no clue what's involved before we can define space..    intellivoice emulations is probably not needed because intellivoices are still pretty easy to come by..   on board space.. not sure i follow but yea i think having joystick ports would be important since the ECS provides this as well..  and price..  no way anything would be that cheap..  we'll be lucky if it's not double that. 

 

3 hours ago, First Spear said:

it would take less space and not need an additional PS.

not sure that's true.. too soon to tell.  the ECS needed external power..  if intellivoice is on the chain.. that draws some power..  and even if emulated, that whole emulated aspect might be too much draw on the cartridge port.. 

 

 

[8bitwidgets.com]

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

It must be an exceptionally interesting game to motivate people to get their light-gun out of the closet and hook it up.

yea, but i think that's a great challenge for the developers to come up with something..   with JLP (save/load) there's a lot more possibilities for a deeper story and gameplay..  

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

In my opinion it is a novelty that wears out quickly.

not denying that's possible, but sometimes it's just cool to know it can be done. 

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

I think so.  It could also be emulated.

that is true but i'm not sure what kind of programming would be needed to engineer that in say, a pi based system

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

It is hard to make a game that requires it that does not feel contrived

Yea I suppose.  I just enjoyed how the voice offered an added layer of giving info to hte player like B-17 bomber announcing enemies approaching and from where..  but i think most games just slap on some voice for fun since they know some folks might not have the intellivoice module. 

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Would that motivate any programmers to adopt it?

all of your points are valid.  no doubt, but i would say a fair number of homebrews lately seem to be using voice.  however the storage issue is certainly a painful thing to give up unless you have a very simple game.. 

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Low-hanging fruit: extra RAM, extra ROM (bank switching or whatever), and an additional AY chip.

yea i agree those would be all great and seem doable.  though i'm not sure how easy AY chips are to source today.  The other thing I'd like to eventually see is what it would take to make joystick ports that go through the cartridge interface.  not sure how complicated that is to manage.  

 

 

[+DZ-Jay]

32 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea, but i think that's a great challenge for the developers to come up with something..   with JLP (save/load) there's a lot more possibilities for a deeper story and gameplay..  

 

That is a specific category of games, like RPGs and adventure games, etc.  I submit that the market for those would be limited, although collectors will typically buy 2 of anything.

 

However, if your interest is to get people playing and not just sell units, then saves/load feature is just a nice-to-have and not really a major motivator.

 

 

32 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

Yea I suppose.  I just enjoyed how the voice offered an added layer of giving info to hte player like B-17 bomber announcing enemies approaching and from where..  but i think most games just slap on some voice for fun since they know some folks might not have the intellivoice module. 

 

I love the voice games from Mattel.  B-17 Bomber and Bomb Squads are two of my favourite games on the Intellivision.

 

However, my point still stands:  even Mattel was having difficulty coming up with game concepts that actually required, not just used, the voice module.

 

 

32 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

 

all of your points are valid.  no doubt, but i would say a fair number of homebrews lately seem to be using voice.  however the storage issue is certainly a painful thing to give up unless you have a very simple game.. 

 

New games are using it because they have access to that proprietary encoding software @carlsson mentioned earlier.  However, is it a driver?  Is it what attracts people to buy them, or is it just some nice addition?  Will it be a differentiating feature when all games include it?

 

If speech synthesis comes with the cartridge or the voice device is available by default, then I can see games including voice just because.  Otherwise, it will have to be an exceptional feature to motivate people to bring it out of the shelf and hook it up.

 

32 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea i agree those would be all great and seem doable.  though i'm not sure how easy AY chips are to source today.  The other thing I'd like to eventually see is what it would take to make joystick ports that go through the cartridge interface.  not sure how complicated that is to manage.  

The Intellivision II already comes with two ports.  How common is that version of the console?

 

    dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

10 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

I submit that the market for those would be limited, although collectors will typically buy 2 of anything.

No doubt once you establish a genre that could limit your market slightly in an already small market, then add light gun barrier and you lose other players who might like it but don't have a CRT, etc..

 

10 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

 even Mattel was having difficulty coming up with game concepts that actually required, not just used, the voice module.

I don't know if that was ever stated.  Somehow I think if the Intellivoice sold like wildfire, they could have come up with new and interesting games. 

 

I feel like they made the 4 games with it at launch but the units themselves didn't sell well..  in other words, the fan base wasn't really getting what the added hardware did for them for only a couple of games..  and this of course was probably an early lesson in making an add on makes making games for that more challenging because now you can really only sell to those with the module and not everyone with the module is going to buy your game.. 

 

10 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Is it what attracts people to buy them, or is it just some nice addition?

Yea in the case of current homebrews I've seen, yea its a novelty and not part of the games mechanics (from what i've seen, i haven't seen it all) and so long as most people don't have an intellivoice it would have to remain that way.  It would be interesting to poll various intellivision sites / groups and see what % of people have an intellivoice.. and ECS for that matter.  I really don't know what the numbers are. 

 

11 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

If speech synthesis comes with the cartridge or the voice device is available by default

that is true, this would insure that if a game needed the capability and the cart included it, that would insure 100% adoption.. but i would imagine the chips might be tough to source and a bit more work would be needed for sound (like earlier if amplification is needed for volume or was the volume simply a passive resistor on a pot directly resisting the signal generated from the chip)

 

11 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

The Intellivision II already comes with two ports.  How common is that version of the console?

The sears a swell..  but again totally shooting from the hip here, but i still think the 2609 and their ilk including the INTV III with wired controllers are the largest number of INTVs in circulation today..  and they are wired..  offering a plugin that gives two (powered) INTV plugs would be amazing because it would allow ANY intellivision to use new controllers without any aftermarket modding..  however the level of programming it would take to send joystick messages through the joystick port to work with any game sounds pretty daunting.  

[+DZ-Jay]

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

No doubt once you establish a genre that could limit your market slightly in an already small market, then add light gun barrier and you lose other players who might like it but don't have a CRT, etc..

 

I personally do not think the CRT is the limiting factor (although, it certainly would contribute if it were a requirement).  In my opinion, it is the rather narrow use cases that limit its applicability, and by extension, its appeal.

 

If you consider that today's technology mitigates or eliminates all the technical limitations of the device, tell me then why isn't it a top-seller or a must-have item on every single console?  Surely if technology was the limiting factor it should have been cracked it by now.

 

I think that the best possible scenario for a light-gun to attract people would be if someone comes up with a killer-app for it, similarly to how Rockstar came up with Guitar Hero as the must-have application for a single-purpose controller.  Or how Nintendo was able to capture lightning in a bottle with Wii Sports and that weird controller.

 

Almost 50 years since the inception of the video game industry and we still have not seen a similar culture-capturing, generation-defining killer game for the light-gun.

 

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong, of course.

 

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I don't know if that was ever stated.  Somehow I think if the Intellivoice sold like wildfire, they could have come up with new and interesting games. 

 

I sort of recall that from Keith or someone in one of those Blue Sky Ranger panels:  How the marketing department insisted that they needed to come up with games in which the voice was integral to game-play and not just a nice-to-have add-on, and how difficult it was since that limited severely the applicable cases.

 

I think they did exceptionally well with the first line-up of games.  However, how many such games do you think the market would actually bear?  I mean, how many times do you think you can play the "resolve the situation while instructor/peer/assistant/computer tells you what to do," before it gets stale?  You have the bomb scenario, the war scenario, the TRON scenario, the space scenario ... add a submarine scenario and a jungle scenario and you'll probably cover everything.

 

Do not misunderstand me:  I love the Intellivoice games.  I just think that they are a rare breed due to a few coincidental factors:

1. They came from the minds of very creative people.
2. The concepts were interesting, topical, or well established in the culture.
3. They came at a time when nothing else like it existed, so they made the first inroads through unexplored territory.

Do not discount or underestimate that third point.  At the outset of a momentous event -- especially one that captures people's attention and imagination -- it is easy to imagine it turning into a revolution, toppling the status quo, and forging a new era defined by it.  However, most of the time, it turns out to be just a very powerful, yet eventually fleeting, one-hit wonder.  (Think Pac-Man Fever, Guitar Hero, Rubik's Cube, COVID vaccine passports, etc.)

 

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I feel like they made the 4 games with it at launch but the units themselves didn't sell well..  in other words, the fan base wasn't really getting what the added hardware did for them for only a couple of games..  and this of course was probably an early lesson in making an add on makes making games for that more challenging because now you can really only sell to those with the module and not everyone with the module is going to buy your game.. 

 

That's part of it, but remember that they started giving the units away afterwards.

 

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

Yea in the case of current homebrews I've seen, yea its a novelty and not part of the games mechanics (from what i've seen, i haven't seen it all) and so long as most people don't have an intellivoice it would have to remain that way.

 

Wake me up when Intellivision Revolution or Elektronite hire voice actors for their games.  Until then, "programmer voice" in games is just as good as "programmer art."  That is to say, perfectly serviceable, but nothing exceptional.

 

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

  It would be interesting to poll various intellivision sites / groups and see what % of people have an intellivoice.. and ECS for that matter.  I really don't know what the numbers are. 

 

You can try, but so far evidence points to a very limited number of people participating in these surveys.  The problem is compounded by the splintering of the community -- you have some in Discord, some in Facebook, and some here in AtariAge -- and, although there is some overlap between them, they are distinct communities and seldom respond to the same incentives.

 

5 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

However the level of programming it would take to send joystick messages through the joystick port to work with any game sounds pretty daunting.  

 

I do not know what you mean.  What sort of "messages" are you talking about?  I imagine some micro-controller translating the device's signals to the 8-bit ones of the AY.

 

    -dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

1 hour ago, DZ-Jay said:

tell my then why isn't it a top-seller

true it's always been a novelty really..  i suppose that will always be the case..

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong, of course.

you're not wrong and yet we may still do it just for fun.  the main thing would be if it's something we can incorporate built on something bigger than just it..  i've always viewed this feature as something that shouldn't require heavy development.  

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

However, how many such games do you think the market would actually bear?

Well I don't know, it seems pretty easy to imagine ways to use it, but sure it's for the most part always some kind of assistant..  but also i wonder if the voice module could have been leveraged for sound effects / added voices to the music..  i know it's only one additional voice but i don't think i ever saw that done..  admittedly i never really played anything but b-17 bomber myself.  i have the other roms but never got around to really playing them.  maybe this has already been explored by homebrews or the other three original titles?

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Do not discount or underestimate that third point. 

right it get it.  odyssey 2 had it.. ti-99 had it and others i might be overlooking..  so clearly voice was a craze that the time that seemed like next generation technology and gameplay..  but novel in the end. 

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

but remember that they started giving the units away afterwards.

because they were not selling based on merit alone.  Wasn't the original plan for Mattel.. but like the Adam computer they produced a lot of something before they knew it wasn't going to sell well hence the free/liquidation. 

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

although there is some overlap between them, they are distinct communities

yea it is a shame that it's like that..  i could do a better job of reaching out to groups outside of AA and FB..  those are my main goto places..  

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

What sort of "messages" are you talking about?

I was talking about how you'd send joystick controller signals through the cartridge port..  if something were made to go into the cartridge slot, how would direction or fire button presses be sent in a way that games would know to respond to them vs. coming from the established joystick ports normally used.  

 

[+DZ-Jay]

28 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

you're not wrong and yet we may still do it just for fun.  the main thing would be if it's something we can incorporate built on something bigger than just it..

 

Please do.  It's always cool to try new things.  I was just suggesting that you should temper your expectations, since it seemed to me that you were suggesting that it would be a hot item.  It may not be, but it would surely be nice to have.

 

28 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

Well I don't know, it seems pretty easy to imagine ways to use it, but sure it's for the most part always some kind of assistant..  but also i wonder if the voice module could have been leveraged for sound effects / added voices to the music..  i know it's only one additional voice but i don't think i ever saw that done..  admittedly i never really played anything but b-17 bomber myself.  i have the other roms but never got around to really playing them.  maybe this has already been explored by homebrews or the other three original titles?

 

Using it for sound effects has not been done, as far as I know.  I have thought about that too.  However, I do not know how well it can work as a general digital sample player, since it is designed specifically for speech synthesis.

It would be a neat idea, though.

 

28 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I was talking about how you'd send joystick controller signals through the cartridge port..  if something were made to go into the cartridge slot, how would direction or fire button presses be sent in a way that games would know to respond to them vs. coming from the established joystick ports normally used.  

 

Ah.  I suppose it would be the same was as any other peripheral:  reserve a chunk of the memory address space for its own registers and expose them as the programmable interface, where the host program can read from or write to.

 

    dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

15 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

temper your expectations

yea fair points for sure.  

 

2 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

Using it for sound effects has not been done, as far as I know.

worth looking into then for sure.  i could see how using it for voice to make specific sounds would be involved, but as long as the basic various snippets of sound can be called on i could see it being possibly musical.  I have what I believe are all of the samples in the IV as the O2 "the voice" uses the same chip I believe..  just a raw sample dump..  but listening to those could help speed up the previewing process of sounds that might be interesting..  

 

8 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

 reserve a chunk of the memory address space

i think it would be key to make it line up like the main ports, but now that makes me wonder..  do the ECS joystick ports work with all intellivision games or only ones made for the ECS?

[+DZ-Jay]

29 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I have what I believe are all of the samples in the IV as the O2 "the voice" uses the same chip I believe.. 

 

I think they are different.  As I recall, the Odyssey2 chip supports only allophone synthesis, while the one in the Intellivoice supports formant synthesis and a form of LPC (Linear Predictive Coding) synthesis.  Something like that.

 

29 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

I think it would be key to make it line up like the main ports, but now that makes me wonder..  do the ECS joystick ports work with all intellivision games or only ones made for the ECS?

The controller ports are hooked up to the AY sound chip, which includes and I/O interface (the "O" is the sound, the "I" is the hand-controller), so they are available to any cartridge that reads them.

 

    dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

I think they are different.

yea i dug deeper and yea different chips for sure. 

 

9 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

so they are available to any cartridge that reads them.

and the ECS controller ports go through the same AY chip?  I'm curious if joysticks hooked up to the ECS would work with any game.  Seems like it would be possible, but not sure how easy it would be to rig it.