Kickstarter Book - Dare to Dream: Commodore and Amiga Today?

[RobertB]

     David Pleasance of Commodore UK along with others, such as Commodore Business Machines engineer Dave Haynie, are kickstarting a new book, “Dare to Dream: Commodore and Amiga Today?”  As sub-titled, it is “A Vision of What Commodore and Amiga Could Have Been... Should Have Been…”  Check out the 6 1/2 minute video and the rest of the Kickstarter project at

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/daretodreamhardback/dare-to-dream-commodore-and-amiga-today

 

          The Kickstarter ends on Sunday, August 4.

          I’ve backed the book,
          Robert Bernardo
          Fresno Commodore User Group –
          http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
          Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network –
          http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

[youxia]

Guess AGA is no more? 😊

[+OLD CS1]

I grow weary of dreaming and fantasizing.

[RobertB]

Now 51% funded!

 

Back in California,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

[Marcio D.]

Now 68% funded!

[oracle_jedi]

There is an established and proven market for publications that focus on the histories of early home and personal computing and video games.  See Racing the Beam, On The Edge, Fire in the Valley amongst many others.

 

Why does this book need a kickstarter campaign to get started?  Why not just go ahead and write it, publish it, and then let potential buyers get a taste of the work through a sample chapter? 

 

I have no axe to grind with David Pleasance, I wish him the best.  But I am jaded by Kickstarter and Indegogo campaigns such as the Amiga case and key cap campaigns (nothing to do with David, I know), where backers were asked to commit the funds and take on the financial risks of the project, only to find the final product available to buy from retail stores before backers got their products delivered.  And in those two cases I can at least understand there was upfront capital costs to establish fabrication, even if the very delayed and "back of the queue" delivery strategy for backers left a sour taste in my mouth.  I guess I don't understand the upfront costs of this project.

 

Happy to be enlightened by those with a better insight.

 

[RobertB]

Now at 76%!

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

[Brek Martin]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:46 AM, oracle_jedi said:

There is an established and proven market for publications that focus on the histories of early home and personal computing and video games.  See Racing the Beam, On The Edge, Fire in the Valley amongst many others.

 

Why does this book need a kickstarter campaign to get started?  Why not just go ahead and write it, publish it, and then let potential buyers get a taste of the work through a sample chapter? 

 

I have no axe to grind with David Pleasance, I wish him the best.  But I am jaded by Kickstarter and Indegogo campaigns such as the Amiga case and key cap campaigns (nothing to do with David, I know), where backers were asked to commit the funds and take on the financial risks of the project, only to find the final product available to buy from retail stores before backers got their products delivered.  And in those two cases I can at least understand there was upfront capital costs to establish fabrication, even if the very delayed and "back of the queue" delivery strategy for backers left a sour taste in my mouth.  I guess I don't understand the upfront costs of this project.

 

Happy to be enlightened by those with a better insight.

 

I find it obvious where his motivation lies. There's always been a similar project since I was into Amigas in 2007 or so.

If the book "From Vulture to Vampires" is what I think it's about, it wasn't even entirely David's place to be writing it.

He was a marketing manager. His perspective is the very last perspective of computing history I'm interested in.

 

[Marcio D.]

3 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

I find it obvious where his motivation lies. There's always been a similar project since I was into Amigas in 2007 or so.

If the book "From Vulture to Vampires" is what I think it's about, it wasn't even entirely David's place to be writing it.

He was a marketing manager. His perspective is the very last perspective of computing history I'm interested in.

 

 

Don't forget the other Dave who's writing this book - Dave Haynie.  Unless... you're also not interested in the engineering perspective?

 

Why speculate about "From Vultures to Vampires"?  It's already out there, available to be purchased and read.

 

[Brek Martin]

20 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

 

Don't forget the other Dave who's writing this book - Dave Haynie.  Unless... you're also not interested in the engineering perspective?

 

Why speculate about "From Vultures to Vampires"?  It's already out there, available to be purchased and read.

 

Various others have obviously been convinced by Dave to offer some content to make the project more attractive, and it does,

but really, I've been friends with every Amiga engineer on Facebook for years, and they've answered every general question they can.

It's only in the last year I unfriended them all but RJ because I wondered if I viewed them as somehow more than Human.

"Hero Worship" if you will. I don't think it was ever truly the case, but I must have wanted to be sure.

 

PS... Haynie's involvement with contribution doesn't imply his involvement with the project.

 

Edited July 28 by Brek Martin

[Marcio D.]

9 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Various others have obviously been convinced by Dave to offer some content to make the project more attractive, and it does,

but really, I've been friends with every Amiga engineer on Facebook for years, and they've answered every general question they can.

It's only in the last year I unfriended them all but RJ because I wondered if I viewed them as somehow more than Human.

"Hero Worship" if you will. I don't think it was ever truly the case, but I must have wanted to be sure.

 

PS... Haynie's involvement with contribution doesn't imply his involvement with the project.

 

 

You asked general questions on Facebook and you received general answers.  This book goes far beyond generality, propelling the reader deep into the woods of engineering.

 

Not sure what you mean by "Haynie's involvement with contribution doesn't imply his involvement with the project".  He's writing a significant portion of the book, therefore he's involved in the project.

 

You sound tired of the Amiga scene.  Why don't you take a break from the Amiga scene for a year, and focus on boring platforms like classic Macintosh or the Atari ST lineage?  Come back when you're ready - Amiga will be waiting for you with open arms.

 

[youxia]

5 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

focus on boring platforms like classic Macintosh or the Atari ST lineage

It's never a good look trying to make a point by denigrating other platforms. Especially when one of them is in this website's "lineAGE"

 

As for this book, for me its premise sounds pretty silly, basically like one giant "what if" thread the likes of which used to plague this board. Having said that it's at least a tangible product, so it's much better than the whole AGA silliness or some other hare brained schemes from assorted trademark vultures.

[Marcio D.]

4 hours ago, youxia said:

It's never a good look trying to make a point by denigrating other platforms. Especially when one of them is in this website's "lineAGE"

 

As for this book, for me its premise sounds pretty silly, basically like one giant "what if" thread the likes of which used to plague this board. Having said that it's at least a tangible product, so it's much better than the whole AGA silliness or some other hare brained schemes from assorted trademark vultures.

 

That's why I restricted the Mac and ST denigration to this Amiga subforum.

 

Yes, there have literally been hundreds if not thousands of what-if threads spread across the Internet since Commodore's demise in 1994.  But the BIG difference in this case is that the what-ifs are written by the actual key people who made Commodore live on in that alternate universe - i.e. Pleasance and Haynie.

 

What-ifs are often silly, but that's part of the fun.  Loosen up and have some fun... back this project!

 

[Brek Martin]

3 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

 

That's why I restricted the Mac and ST denigration to this Amiga subforum.

 

Yes, there have literally been hundreds if not thousands of what-if threads spread across the Internet since Commodore's demise in 1994.  But the BIG difference in this case is that the what-ifs are written by the actual key people who made Commodore live on in that alternate universe - i.e. Pleasance and Haynie.

 

What-ifs are often silly, but that's part of the fun.  Loosen up and have some fun... back this project!

 

I'm more than sceptical of Dave's motivation. That's all. He has been seemingly trying to milk the Amiga community since I was involved in 2017.

He was flogging essentially the same story in another book that very same year, "Commodore: the Inside Story  -2017".

Other Amiga personalities were roped into providing content to legitimise that book too, but they aren't behind the project.

The rest of your comment, you have simply made up and imagined. I'm allowed to have opinions and make observations that you disagree with. I was polite, and there's no need for your childishness.

 

With regard to Dave H, I mean general questions in the sense that if you ask any Amiga engineer some detail about software or hardware now,

they'll likely not remember what you want them to. They only remember technical detail that is meaningful to them in some way, and can then share it.

This is only relevant because I was designing and building peripherals at the time, and when you are giving, any perceived taking from that same community, will naturally piss you off.

 

Edited July 29 by Brek Martin

[Marcio D.]

17 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

I'm more than sceptical of Dave's motivation. That's all. He has been seemingly trying to milk the Amiga community since I was involved in 2017.

The rest you have simply made up and imagined. I'm allowed to have opinions and make observations that you disagree with. I was polite, and there's no need for childishness. 

With regard to Dave H, I mean general questions in the sense that if you ask any Amiga engineer some detail about software or hardware now,

they'll likely not remember. They only remember technical detail that is meaningful to them in some way, and can then share it.

 

 

Why are you so opposed to someone like David Pleasance making an extra buck or two?  If you own a rental property, should I accuse you of milking the economy to selfishly enrich yourself?  If you work some overtime hours to make extra dough, are you evil?

 

Try to adopt a more reasonable mindset.  Ask yourself:  In exchange for the money received, has Pleasance provided sufficient value in return?  If you've read his prior books and you feel he's a terrible author, then you can rightfully say he hasn't provided YOU with good enough value for the money.  But keep in mind that this Dare to Dream book isn't his first rodeo.  He's already written / co-written several Commodore-related books, folks keep buying them, reading them, getting them autographed by him, etc.  So evidently, others see adequate value for the money.

 

[Brek Martin]

2 minutes ago, Marcio D. said:

 

Why are you so opposed to someone like David Pleasance making an extra buck or two? 

 

I know my comments are edited (on the day) because I am being careful what I say.

This is my real name, and I have to stand by what I say no matter who might be reading in future.

 

But read carefully, I said I question where Dave's motivation lies. It doesn't speak anything about the quality of a product.

Dave Haynie, RJ Michal, Beth Richards, Hedley Davis, and a few others, all actively involved themselves in the Amiga community

without wanting anything. Dave P on the other hand was only ever seen when promoting something. I don't see any genuine passion at all.

 

There will always be someone willing to exploit fanatics. I take exception to this, particularly when that someone doesn't even respect the fanatics.

Now that comment is not particularly related to Dave P, but it's everywhere in every retro community.

I find greater integrity when a project was born out of a love or passion for whatever the topic, and then became a product that made money.

It was born out of passion, and/or altruism, rather than opportunity.

There's no part of me that can see that in Dave P, but I never implied that makes him a bad person. It only causes me to dismiss his offerings.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marcio D.]

1 hour ago, Brek Martin said:

I know my comments are edited (on the day) because I am being careful what I say.

This is my real name, and I have to stand by what I say no matter who might be reading in future.

 

But read carefully, I said I question where Dave's motivation lies. It doesn't speak anything about the quality of a product.

Dave Haynie, RJ Michal, Beth Richards, Hedley Davis, and a few others, all actively involved themselves in the Amiga community

without wanting anything. Dave P on the other hand was only ever seen when promoting something. I don't see any genuine passion at all.

 

There will always be someone willing to exploit fanatics. I take exception to this, particularly when that someone doesn't even respect the fanatics.

Now that comment is not particularly related to Dave P, but it's everywhere in every retro community.

I find greater integrity when a project was born out of a love or passion for whatever the topic, and then became a product that made money.

It was born out of passion, and/or altruism, rather than opportunity.

There's no part of me that can see that in Dave P, but I never implied that makes him a bad person. It only causes me to dismiss his offerings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did read carefully, and you accused Pleasance of "trying to milk the Amiga community".  That goes beyond just questioning his motivations.

 

Why sit at home in the gloomy shadows, feeling paranoid and suspicious, unfriending a whole bunch of Commodore folks on Facebook?  Why don't you attend some events, and chat with Pleasance and others to get a better understanding of their motivations?

 

If anyone's lacking passion, it's you.  Come back to the Amiga scene in a year or so, after you've had enough of Mac and ST.

 

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Marcio D. said:

 

I did read carefully, and you accused Pleasance of "trying to milk the Amiga community".  That goes beyond just questioning his motivations.

 

Why sit at home in the gloomy shadows, feeling paranoid and suspicious, unfriending a whole bunch of Commodore folks on Facebook?  Why don't you attend some events, and chat with Pleasance and others to get a better understanding of their motivations?

 

If anyone's lacking passion, it's you.  Come back to the Amiga scene in a year or so, after you've had enough of Mac and ST.

 

I said "seemingly". That's the way it occurs to me. That's my opinion.

You are free to disagree, and even defend that, but your attitude is juvenile.

 

You can't accept that my opinion is in opposition to yours, and through your own weakness of character, and emotional immaturity,

cannot view that as anything other than criticism, and your solution is excluding me from a group until I view things your way.

I'll no longer entertain you.

 

 

 

[Marcio D.]

1 hour ago, Brek Martin said:

I said "seemingly". That's the way it occurs to me. That's my opinion.

You are free to disagree, and even defend that, but your attitude is juvenile.

 

You can't accept that my opinion is in opposition to yours, and through your own weakness of character, and emotional immaturity,

cannot view that as anything other than criticism, and your solution is excluding me from a group until I view things your way.

I'll no longer entertain you.

 

 

 

 

Sure, you're entitled to your opinion.  And I'm entitled to my opinion regarding your opinion.

 

Who knows... your opinion may very well be founded... perhaps Pleasance really is a jerk and has ill intentions.  But you'll never know, because you don't make the effort to attend events, shake his hand, chat with him, look for any nervous ticks on his part that might betray an evil within.  Your opinion is perhaps based on your dislike of his appearance, or his voice, or just due to your own personal cynicism.

 

Don't stray too far from the scene.  Like I said, Amiga will always be here for you, so lighten up.

 

[Lostdragon]

On 7/28/2024 at 11:49 PM, Brek Martin said:

Various others have obviously been convinced by Dave to offer some content to make the project more attractive, and it does,

but really, I've been friends with every Amiga engineer on Facebook for years, and they've answered every general question they can.

It's only in the last year I unfriended them all but RJ because I wondered if I viewed them as somehow more than Human.

"Hero Worship" if you will. I don't think it was ever truly the case, but I must have wanted to be sure.

 

PS... Haynie's involvement with contribution doesn't imply his involvement with the project.

 

From personal experience of the magazine and YT interviews with R. J Mical, he sadly comes across as something of an over blown story teller. 

 

When talking about the Atari Lynx, he suggested Epyx  might of looked at using Hard Drives at 1 stage, but debunks claims they ever considered using cassette media as a storage medium at any point.. 

 

 

The cassette media is referenced in the official Epyx Lynx documention.. 

 

 

https://www.monlynx.de/lynx/lynxdoc.html

 

He makes blanket statements about the downfall of Epyx.. Atari killed them. 

 

Epyx were in dire financial straits due to various poor business decisions, long before the Lynx and Atari's involvement. 

 

 

When interviewed at the time about the future of the 3DO,he made  reference to some game he witnessed, supposedly doing things he never thought possible on the 3DO hardware, but failed to not only state what these technical achievements were, but what the game in question was.. 

 

I've personally never viewed him as a reliable source for any 3DO/Lynx research i have needed to do. 

[Lostdragon]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:46 PM, Brek Martin said:

I find it obvious where his motivation lies. There's always been a similar project since I was into Amigas in 2007 or so.

If the book "From Vulture to Vampires" is what I think it's about, it wasn't even entirely David's place to be writing it.

He was a marketing manager. His perspective is the very last perspective of computing history I'm interested in.

 

This is a key point that flagged up for myself also. 

 

David was MARKETING.. 

 

David had no role, as in effect there was no product to market, so why would he be the person best suited to detail lost hardware? 🤔

 

It'd be like Darryl Still announcing a crowd funder  for a book detailing the Atari Panther and Jaguar II consoles. 

 

From my very limited understanding, 

 David's book will look at Project Hombre- The last Commodore custom chipset? 

 

Back in 1992 Commodore cancelling development of the AAA chipset and beginning work design a new graphics chipset that would once again bring the Amiga back into the limelight?

 

 

Dave Haynie has stated it was to form the basis of a CD32-type game console?

 

Given past CBM console ventures, CDTV, C64GS, CD32, it seems like a brave move on the companies part. 

 

Also having looked deeply into the ill-fated Atari Panther console myself, impressive on-paper hardware specifications didn't actually equate to anything like what was a reality, when people like Jeff Minter, Rob Nicholson started working on development machines. 

 

You also get very conflicting accounts from multiple sources, Leonard Tramiel's accounts differ greatly from development teams here in the UK, Jim Gregory and Rob Nicholson, both from HMS, gave differing accounts why the solid 3D version of Lynx Battlezone had to be hidden, never mind personal accounts on the Panther. 

 

Martin Hooley just speculated what might of been in development for the Panther, his own ex-coders, artists and musicians, again say he is more of a story teller.. 

 

Chuck Ernst describes a very early Panther development kit, nobody here in the UK seems to been given. 

 

Even when your lucky enough to have access to a multitude of sources, you'll find the usual human traits, people will want to rewrite history, will rely on what are now very hazy memories. 

 

Some years ago, i reached out to an Atari Engineer, Sam Tramiel had named, when talking about chipsets designed for the Jaguar Duo Sam's account very different to the reality. 

 

I have no axe to grind with David, very much enjoyed my time as a C64 and many years later, an Amiga 1200 owner. 

 

I've just personally grown very weary of having to dechiper what really went down, what might of been, when accounts from so so many industry sources, throw up so much confusion and conflict, not to mention flat out lies. 

Edited July 30 by Lostdragon

[Landstalker]

5 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

 

I did read carefully, and you accused Pleasance of "trying to milk the Amiga community".  That goes beyond just questioning his motivations.

 

Why sit at home in the gloomy shadows, feeling paranoid and suspicious, unfriending a whole bunch of Commodore folks on Facebook?  Why don't you attend some events, and chat with Pleasance and others to get a better understanding of their motivations?

 

If anyone's lacking passion, it's you.  Come back to the Amiga scene in a year or so, after you've had enough of Mac and ST.

 

You must step back from your passion for the Amiga and see this in other terms.
This is a sales pitch.
It's irrelevant what is being sold, the undeniable fact is that it's a sales pitch.
While there is nothing wrong with selling per see you need to ask "why" this particular item is being sold.
Almost certainly because the AGA pitch failed.
Then you need to think long and hard about the whole AGA pitch.
David was attempting to sell something completely unnecessary. Something nobody wanted other than him and something nobody needed other than him.
Every aspect of the Amiga Global Alliance exists already; the forums, the lines of communication the assistance offered to members of the global Amiga community.
There you have it in a nutshell. The Amiga community has existed across the face of the globe for decades without any input from David whatsoever.
He had moved away from his sales position within Commodore onto other ventures and the Amiga scene flourished without his involvement.
But suddenly he appears wanting to get his foot in the door.
There is nothing wrong as I said in wanting a slice of the nostalgia pie; hundreds have done it to varying degrees of success.
But to attempt to become the "boss" of the Amiga community, which is what he wanted. There is no other way of looking at his proposal. He wanted to set up something that incorporated everything existing to date, behind a paywall with himself at the top of the table.
And he expected to take a cut of that, every month, ad infinitum.
Why?
For what?
My question to you and I have posed the same to him on his Facebook account and my podcast is "What was he bringing to the table?"
What, as boss of the AGA did David John Pleasance contribute other than the idea?
An idea that already existed, I must stress. The AGA has existed in essence for over two decades without the "paid Alliance fees".
Did this not smell wrong to you?
David offered nothing that did not exist already except for "jobs".
JOBS???
Where and doing what?
There's no commercial viability in the Amiga. No one is going to start manufacturing them again, no one is going to start developing software in sufficient numbers to warrant an employment boom in the Amiga market.
There is no Amiga market outside of fan-based indie creations.
These have also existed for more than 20 years minus any Pleasance involvement.
So if David cannot or will not answer my question regarding what HE was bringing to the table nobody wanted building to justify drawing a monthly salary perhaps you could have a guess?
Did alarm bells not go off when you looked at his business proposal?
Did you not think "This is a sales pitch from a salesman with nothing to sell?"
Because that is EXACTLY what it was.
And it comes from a position of desperation.
David is desperate to generate revenue from the Amiga scene any way he can for whatever reason.
As I said earlier, he's not the first to benefit from nostalgia.
Now you're probably thinking "We're not talking about the AGA here, we're talking about Dare to Dream, his latest potential publication."
You need to see subsequent books in the light of the failed AGA.
It's only a guess, but probably a good one, if I say that had AGA, succeeded, we almost certainly would not be seeing future books from David.
He would have his monthly nest-egg from the community and he could sit back and not wrack his brains for some way to create another Amiga-related revenue stream. Because that is all they are.
The books are not well-written and paint a very one-sided and dubious picture of events with David always the hero of any situation.
Let's be brutally honest.
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had careers infinitely more fascinating and they've written their autobiographies. One volume each.
Do you truly believe the life of a salesman warrants five volumes?
Do you truly believe that if not planned correctly the tales across this series of titles could not have been encapsulated in one "earth-shattering and revelatory" volume?
Do you not suspect there is a financial reason they are NOT in one volume?
If this book succeeds do you think there's a possibility that there might be a sixth?
Can you not see these ventures as something other than someone wanting to contribute to the community or make a few bucks?
Do you not see then is being just a little "grasping" and tinged with an element of greed from someone who was JUST A SALESMAN?
He never created any hardware.
He never wrote any software.
He has stated outright that he is not technically minded.
I do have an axe to grind with David. I find him avaricious and duplicitous.
I understand your belief in the project, the topic and to an extent in David.
But you need to put that aside and see the Kickstarter from a different angle.
One final question.
Could he not have written the book and self-published it via "print on demand" on Amazon?

 

[Brek Martin]

49 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

 

The cassette media is referenced in the official Epyx Lynx documention.. 

 

It's funny you mention that because yours truly, just demonstrated the function of the Audio input comparator register literally yesterday

in the Lynx Discord group for the first time. It had apparently never been tested! Maybe because it's not useful.

The function of the Lynx audio input comparator register, at address 0xFD86 is to condition audio input to produce

a pulse train  that can be counted by the CPU, in order to determine an audio input frequency.

A key function when reconstituting a bitstream from a medium such as magnetic tape (or inside a dial up modem).

 

If you look at Lynx 1 schematics, various tape drive signal pins were crossed out and renamed for the new ROM cartridge address bus components.

Motoron, Tape0, Tape1, and AudIN, are all tape drive signal pins, that still exist in the Lynx production hardware.

It's he most interesting thing about the platform to me.... aside from it's roots in Amiga of course

 

RJ had some idea that there was some primitive 3D hardware in it as well, and it appears it's not the case,  

but maybe that's from just trying to think back decades ago...

I figure he's a bit of a BS artist, but I'd buy his book much sooner  His heart is in the right place, and of all the Amiga engineers,

I'd have loved the opportunity to meet Dave needle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Lostdragon said:

Stuff

44 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

Other Stuff

3 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

Other stuff.

 

 

 

Truth be told, I know more useful information regarding Commodore and Amiga than Dave P could possibly share.

 

I was never supposed to say it, but an unnamed Amiga personality gave me complete source code for Amiga OS 3.1

for every version of Amiga that required it's own Kickstart, and every preliminary Kick that was never released.

The drawer from the Sun workstation also includes every firmware source for every Commodore Amiga device

right down to the multi port serial card with 6502 CPU and it's own firmware.

There were reasons for this. I was contributing by designing and demonstrating new hardware peripherals,

and also getting old Commodore factory test boards working again (successfully mind you).

 

The comments throughout that source code tell a story that Dave P never could.

 

For those in the know who might doubt this:

A recoverable error that requires suspending a program, but the OS may continue is officially called a SCREWUP.

A Guru Meditation that crashes the program and the OS behind it is officially called a FUCKUP.

These are the names of the C functions that are called to deal with it.

 

Did you know that in later days, Amiga Kickstart ROM files were built with an Amiga program? it's true.

 

Amiga had a HTML like text file language. I forget the name, but it supported hyperlinks in text that jumped to new

paragraphs, as HTML allows. With the source, a document included was disheartening, but enlightening.

The fact that it has been converted from this format to PDF naively, so it can be viewed on a PC has messed it up a bit.

 

It's called "Future Production" (yeah right!), and I believe this is the first time it has been shared with the public.

It is not source code. My word remains true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

futproduction.pdf

Edited July 30 by Brek Martin

[Brek Martin]

59 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

Let's be brutally honest.
 

Ok, I actually missed a lot of that the first time reading. Why not say what you really think ?  

I wasn't so rough, but was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who sees it this way.

 

I have a Q for you. Did you ever hear of Friends OS?

 

 

 

This vid with what 3 comments?

 

Oops.. that's not my question to you though.

My question is WTF? 

At that time, I'd have actually said stick to the books