Kickstarter Book - Dare to Dream: Commodore and Amiga Today?

[Marcio D.]

22 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

I didn't say I "repeatedly socialise with him".
I said I have spoken to him many times.
Past tense.

 

So you formed your negative opinion of Pleasance after speaking to him many times in the past?

 

OK, well at least you've done your homework, unlike Brek Martin.

 

Pleasance installing himself as AGA boss can't really be one of the reasons why you dislike him.  Because that'd be a flimsy, silly reason.  After all, it's not unusual for a person to be the leader of a project that they create.

 

Whatever horrific confessions he made to earn your hatred deserve to remain private between you two.

 

[Landstalker]

4 minutes ago, Marcio D. said:

So you formed your negative opinion of Pleasance after speaking to him many times in the past?

To inject a modicum of levity into the proceedings, I would certainly find it difficult if not impossible to form any type of opinion from speaking to him in the future.
How I formed my opinions and why is my affair but they're opinions that are shared across a decent percentage of the retro and Amiga communities.
One that you and I will never agree upon, but that's as it should be. If we all liked the same things and the same people, the world would be an exceptionally bland and uninteresting place.

[Marcio D.]

25 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

The fact remains that David is a divisive personality within the community. A community he has little to do with except to monetise.
Your encounters with him show him in a positive light.
Myself and others see things differently.
That does not mean that either side is wrong, we just hold different opinions.

 

The fact that Pleasance is a divisive personality has to do with the community's deficiencies more than anything else.  The Commodore and Amiga communities have more angry, hateful, jealous members compared to other communities.  Tramiel succeeded in selling computers to the masses, and not the classes, but he also attracted a whole bunch of deplorables in the process.  Commodores and Amigas were gobbled up by lots of low income, volatile households in their heyday.  The kids from those tumultuous households have now "matured" into suspicious and spiteful folks.  Hence the pervasive hatred.

 

Why aren't you attacking anybody else monetising their Commodore and Amiga projects?  What makes you so sure they'd still be contributors if there weren't any monetisation possibilities?

 

I maintain that you lot are all paper tigers.  The next time you see Pleasance at an event, tell him to his face that he's a sad, deluded, greedy person.  You're not afraid of a 75-year old, are you?

 

[Landstalker]

28 minutes ago, Marcio D. said:

Why aren't you attacking anybody else monetising their Commodore and Amiga projects?

How do you know I'm not?
Are you stalking me?
To say that someone is divisive, regardless of their identity is due to the community rather than the person is not something I would agree with.
Surely the person/thing/song/book or whatever it is has something in its makeup that divides people?
Not everyone likes JRPGs. Is that due to "the community's deficiencies more than anything else?"
Also, deficiency is somewhat harsh.
In what way is a community deficient for not siding with those who like or prefer a person or thing?
Are there not things that you dislike or at the very least like less than others?
Does that make you deficient?
It's not a term I would use.

 

 

[Landstalker]

Anyhoo...
As entertaining as this has been, it's obvious that opinions are subjective. You have yours and I have mine.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Enjoy David's book or books depending on however many more he decides to publish.

I've got games to develop.
Take care.

[Brek Martin]

There's only one person doing any attacking in the thread. The person who can't accept any other opinions but his own,
and has also pervasively decided for everyone else that they should first buy a book, and then decide if it was good value.
That's not how marketing works. The customer must first be convinced, and compelled to buy a product,
or they'd be buying every product offered without any agency or thinking of their own.

 

But if you disagree you're paranoid, envious, lazy, live in a gloomy abode,

boasting of achievements (without specifying any of them), haven't done research (because you don't share the one true opinion)
offer nothing yourself, should concentrate on boring platforms for a year. Quite the manufactured narrative.

These are all personal attacks. Nobody called anyone evil, or implied it.
I certainly feel comfortable calling someone in the thread quite delusional.

 

Dave P, I wouldn't have went anywhere near the term "delusional" of the books. "inappropriate" more like it,

especially if it's true that he never used an Amiga.

But from my current understanding of AGA (which is admittedly new, and potentially lacking), yep, I suspect that's quite delusional.

The market obviously decided that.

Edited July 31 by Brek Martin

[Lostdragon]

7 hours ago, Marcio D. said:

 

Pleasance and Proudfoot managed to raise $50M from investors to buy out the Commodore assets.

 

I find it hard to believe they did that by telling investors that OCS/ECS/AGA technology was good enough to bank on for the next 10 years.  I picture P & P knowing enough about AAA and Hombre to have dazzled the investors.  Of course, it's possible that P & P only presented OCS/ECS/AGA to the investors, and the investors were dumb enough to part with $50M on that basis.

 

But I'd rather stop speculating on how much or how little P & P knew about upcoming Amiga tech back in 1994, and that's why I've backed the book.  I want to read what really went down.

 

 

Back the e-book version to lessen the hit on the wallet, and have fun!

 

Personally, for myself to back any such book of this nature, i would need to know for sure, that there was a lot more detailed information on Project Hombre, than which any one can read for free on the Internet. 

 

Pure speculation isn't a great investment incentive. 

 

If it's all in there, many congratulations to all involved in telling the story. 

 

If it's not.. 

 

 

I've not wasted any money. 

 

Enjoy your day. 

Edited July 31 by Lostdragon

[Marcio D.]

5 hours ago, Landstalker said:

How do you know I'm not?
Are you stalking me?
To say that someone is divisive, regardless of their identity is due to the community rather than the person is not something I would agree with.
Surely the person/thing/song/book or whatever it is has something in its makeup that divides people?
Not everyone likes JRPGs. Is that due to "the community's deficiencies more than anything else?"
Also, deficiency is somewhat harsh.
In what way is a community deficient for not siding with those who like or prefer a person or thing?
Are there not things that you dislike or at the very least like less than others?
Does that make you deficient?
It's not a term I would use.

 

 

 

Isn't it terrific to be living in this Information Age?  Only in this era can you openly lambast and mock someone like Pleasance without fear of reprisal.  Back in your parents' and grandparents' day, they still had to be careful about what they said and whom they said it to.  Thank goodness for the inventions of electronic communication and online names!

 

There's a difference between harshly criticizing a JRPG and criticizing a person.  The latter could result in harming the person's reputation, livelihood, safety, etc.  In the olden days, you'd only character-assassinate someone if you had good reason to.  You've not identified any good reasons, because you have none.  You've not indicated that you know him to be an animal abuser, for example.

 

Jealousy is at the root of your hatred - e.g. Pleasance is a bad person because he's making money from all this, and because he wanted the glory of being AGA boss, etc, etc.

 

The good news is, you too can make something meaningful of your existence to earn praise from the community... any community of your choosing, not just the Amiga community.  The bad news is:  you won't.

 

[Marcio D.]

5 hours ago, Landstalker said:

Anyhoo...
As entertaining as this has been, it's obvious that opinions are subjective. You have yours and I have mine.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Enjoy David's book or books depending on however many more he decides to publish.

I've got games to develop.
Take care.

 

Once you've finished those games, let us know what they are.

 

[Marcio D.]

5 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

But if you disagree you're paranoid, envious, lazy, live in a gloomy abode,

boasting of achievements (without specifying any of them), haven't done research (because you don't share the one true opinion)
offer nothing yourself, should concentrate on boring platforms for a year.

 

 

Thank you for looking into the mirror!  You may now pat yourself on the back.

 

[Marcio D.]

5 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

The person who can't accept any other opinions but his own,
and has also pervasively decided for everyone else that they should first buy a book, and then decide if it was good value.
That's not how marketing works. The customer must first be convinced, and compelled to buy a product,
or they'd be buying every product offered without any agency or thinking of their own.

 

 

That's how it often works, actually.  We read a book or watch a film because we're interested in the topic at hand.  Then at the end, we judge whether we got our money's worth and/or our time's worth.

 

If you've spent a couple of hours watching a movie that you ultimately deem to be trash, are you one of those folks who howl in pain, complaining that you'll never get back those two hours that you've wasted?  Go easy on yourself and lighten up!

 

If you're boycotting Pleasance's book because you actively dislike the man, all the power to you!

 

[Daedalus2097]

Wow, what a very Amiga-ish thread  Many people could do with cooling the jets here; with extreme views at both ends of the topic on hand, as usual chances are reality is somewhere in the middle.

 

I've always found David P to be a lovely guy to speak to and socialise with. Sad and deluded aren't adjectives I could possibly associate with him without a serious negative prior experience. Cash grab also seems a bit extreme, and again seems to point towards some prior personal experience that perhaps we're not aware of.

 

On the other hand, the whole AGA thing was a terrible idea that was doomed to failure before it began. The intentions may have been sound but the reality was that he was quite out of touch with the community. Some of the plans were redundant because of various community projects and some of the stated goals simply weren't achievable because of various legal issues, so once stripped of these it probably did seem a bit farcical. This resulted in more ridicule than it deserved, but ultimately I'm sure it seemed like a reasonable idea to someone less familiar with the community and was borne of good intentions, rather than anything ill-intended like the simple cash grab some took it for.

 

And whatever else, none of this excuses any of the attacks on the man himself. Some of the trolling and personal attacks that have been directed towards him over the past year or two are frankly disgusting.

 

I haven't backed this book and probably won't buy it unless something compelling comes to light that hasn't been documented elsewhere. I read his first book, and it was quite interesting and reasonably well written, but haven't had enough interest in any of the later books to bother with them. Preachy posts trying to push the book on others who have no interest certainly doesn't change that. Thankfully, nobody's being forced to buy it.

Oh, and welcome back to the fold Brek

[Brek Martin]

56 minutes ago, Daedalus2097 said:

 

Oh, and welcome back to the fold Brek

Hi there  I don't think I ever knew your name, but I remember you.

 

I see what's happening in the thread is called projection.

 

This thread did cause me to search a few things, and the Amiga spark was reawakened so to speak,

enough to say hello in some places, but it isn't stronger than the current Lynx obsession

I'll never collect Amiga hardware again, and that will limit my focus on it.

 

Having said that, I also have games to write. Cheerio then!

 

 

Edited July 31 by Brek Martin

[Marcio D.]

4 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Having said that, I also have games to write. Cheerio then!

 

 

 

Once you've finished those games, let us know what they are.

 

[Brek Martin]

19 minutes ago, Marcio D. said:

 

Once you've finished those games, let us know what they are.

 

I'm an Amigan from way back, but am here on this forum for Atari Lynx (not Amiga),

but why would you ask that same question of two programmers?

 

[Marcio D.]

2 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

I'm an Amigan from way back, but am here on this forum for Atari Lynx (not Amiga),

but why would you ask that same question of two programmers?

 

 

Because I can't wait to dissect and critique your work.

 

If what you produce is rubbish, I'll try to restrict the criticism to the game itself and refrain from insulting the coder.

 

I expect the game to be free to download and play.  Because any attempt at monetisation will mean the coder is greedy, unworthy, parasitic, etc.

 

Godspeed.

 

[Brek Martin]

Not the reply I expected.

 

First of all, do you contribute anything at all, to put you in a position to critique any offering at all (if it were free) ?

 

Secondly, My name can be searched on YouTube. I already gave the time frame I was doing Amiga stuff in particular.

Having spent 15 years, and a lot of time boasting about my achievements, that saves me doing it here.

 

I'd say search here, but it's a bit rough considering I've been into Lynx for three months.

Whatever you might critique, you'll be asked what similar contribution you have made.

 

 

 

Edited August 1 by Brek Martin

[Marcio D.]

10 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

First of all, do you contribute anything at all, to put you in a position to critique any offering at all (if it were free) ?

 

Secondly, My name can be searched on YouTube. I already gave the time frame I was doing Amiga stuff in particular.

Having spent 15 years, and a lot of time boasting about my achievements, that saves me doing it here.

 

I'd say search here, but it's a bit rough considering I've been into Lynx for three months.

Whatever you might critique, you'll be asked what similar contribution you have made.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I see.  Your work can only be reviewed by a cohort of immediate peers - i.e. programmers.

 

That echos the elitism you conveyed several days ago:

 

"If the book "From Vulture to Vampires" is what I think it's about, it wasn't even entirely David's place to be writing it.

He was a marketing manager. His perspective is the very last perspective of computing history I'm interested in."

 

So because Pleasance wasn't/isn't a programmer or engineer, he's unworthy to write a what-if story on Commodore's survival.  Yes, yes... I know - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

 

Well, unfortunately I'm not a programmer.  So I guess I won't be playing your games.  Perhaps I can sample Landstalker's offerings, unless he imposes a similar prerequisite.

 

[Brek Martin]

There you go constructing your own narrative and imposing it on others again.

I didn't say programmers.. and I do hardware and software, but people can contribute in any number of ways.

 

I didn't characterise David P at all, I am sceptical of his motivation, that doesn't equate to hating on someone, or casting the whole person in a negative light because of some particular motivations or behaviours. There's much more to him that I don't know.

I also have not criticised his work, but question the business of someone writing Amiga books (after his first).

I worked in the warehouse of a truck factory for a couple of years, and had some success in the role, 

but if i wrote a book marketed to actual truck drivers, I expect to be laughed at.

 

I absolutely think that people who offer nothing, while criticising those who do something are the worst kind of individuals.

 

[Marcio D.]

3 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

There you go constructing your own narrative and imposing it on others again.

I didn't say programmers.. and I do hardware and software, but people can contribute in any number of ways.

 

I didn't characterise David P at all, I am sceptical of his motivation, that doesn't equate to hating on someone, or casting the whole person in a negative light because of some particular motivations or behaviours. There's much more to him that I don't know.

I also have not criticised his work, but question the business of someone writing Amiga books (after his first).

I worked in the warehouse of a truck factory for a couple of years, and had some success in the role, 

but if i wrote a book marketed to actual truck drivers, I expect to be laughed at.

 

I absolutely think that people who offer nothing, while criticising those who do something are the worst kind of individuals.

 

 

Didn't fabricate anything.  You wrote this:

 

"First of all, do you contribute anything at all, to put you in a position to critique any offering at all (if it were free) ?"

 

 

You should criticize Pleasance's literary work if it's not that great, after you've read it of course.

 

Where it becomes a low blow is when you question someone's motivation and worthiness to participate in a community, without making the effort to get acquainted with them.  Fast forward another 10 years and a few more Pleasance books later, are you still going to question his place in 2034 to write Commodore-related books?

 

Pleasance rejoined the Amiga scene in 2015, which is the same time others began rejoining in large numbers.  So he's not late to the party.  By your own admission, you weren't even aware of his AGA initiative that was announced a couple of years ago.  Your Amiga awareness is spotty, which makes it all the more ironic that you're judging someone else's worthiness to be contributing to the community.

 

Have fun making your Lynx games that can only be played by those worthy enough.

 

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Marcio D. said:

 

Oh, I see.  Your work can only be reviewed by a cohort of immediate peers - i.e. programmers.

 

 

That's right, and you said this ^^^

 

Your criticism could be ignored because you've stated your objective is criticism.

That doesn't imply it's constructive at all, but simply going to go look for things to critique,

which is fine, because that's what you stated you'd do, and it's actually fine with me.

That being the case though, don't expect it to carry any weight with me, or be of any value.

 

If you intention was to find a game/program/hardware to play/build, or whatever it is,

your criticism might be viewed differently, and I have a history of that kind of criticism being taken onboard.

 

If you were a programmer, or electronics enthusiast yourself, yes that criticism, if viewed by me as honest and constructive,

would carry even more weight, because those people tend to have more tuned ideas about what is realistic, or reasonable.

 

 

 

[Brek Martin]

32 minutes ago, Marcio D. said:

 

 

Have fun making your Lynx games that can only be played by those worthy enough.

 

This sort of comment you have littered throughout your replies is purely childish, narcissistic rubbish.

 

You should take a break from the scene and do some work on your emotional maturity and introspection.

The Amiga scene will be here waiting when you come back.

 

Edited August 1 by Brek Martin

[Marcio D.]

3 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

That's right, and you said this ^^^

 

Your criticism could be ignored because you've stated your objective is criticism.

That doesn't imply it's constructive at all, but simply going to go look for things to critique,

which is fine, because that's what you stated you'd do, and it's actually fine with me.

That being the case though, don't expect it to carry any weight with me, or be of any value.

 

If you intention was to find a game/program/hardware to play/build, or whatever it is,

your criticism might be viewed differently, and I have a history of that kind of criticism being taken onboard.

 

If you were a programmer, or electronics enthusiast yourself, yes that criticism, if viewed by me as honest and constructive,

would carry even more weight, because those people tend to have more tuned ideas about what is realistic, or reasonable.

 

 

 

 

 

Critique doesn't always lead to criticism.  It can lead to praise, or it can lead to something neutral - e.g. "The game is OK".

 

You're putting up defensive measures when you impose prerequisites.  Already shielding yourself in case my verdict of your game is negative.

 

 

RE:  "If you were a programmer, or electronics enthusiast yourself, yes that criticism, if viewed by me as honest and constructive,

would carry even more weight, because those people tend to have more tuned ideas about what is realistic, or reasonable."

 

Are you making a game, or some kind of tech demo?

 

If you're making a game to be played by any and all, you really ought to give more weight to the opinions of game players rather than fellow programmers.

 

Shadow of the Beast for Amiga was a breathtaking tech demo back in the day.  But as a game, it was utter crap.

 

 

To put you at ease, I won't play your games.  There's no shortage of new games in the various retro communities to occupy my time anyway.

 

[Marcio D.]

30 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

This sort of comment you have littered throughout your replies is purely childish, narcissistic rubbish.

 

You should take a break from the scene and do some work on your emotional maturity and introspection.

The Amiga scene will be here waiting when you come back.

 

 

 

That's what I recommend that you do.

 

Pleasance isn't hiding from the community.  Quite the opposite - he puts himself out there more than he should.  A couple of years ago, he attended a Commodore show almost immediately after a medical procedure.  He can be seen in videos unsteady on his feet and openly admitting his frailty at the time.

 

There's no need to continually question his motivations and worthiness.  You can determine his sincerity by attending an event to ask him, or join an online chat whenever he holds one if you hate leaving your cozy abode.  Anything less on your part would be childish, narcissistic, rubbish.

 

I'm not leaving the Amiga scene anytime soon.  If I come back to this thread in a month, the question is, will you still be here?

 

[Landstalker]

"Perhaps I can sample Landstalker's offerings unless he imposes a similar prerequisite."

Some of my recent titles.

https://www.specnext.com/software/?title=47
https://d-logames.es/product/qbee-for-zx-spectrum-next/

My Latest.
https://fusionretrobooks.com/products/head-over-heels

Edited August 1 by Landstalker