Mittens0407 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 48 minutes ago, CyranoJ said: You just said one is acceleration, and one is software renderer, when, by your defn, theiy are either both s/w or both h/w. No I did not? My first reply was disagreeing with 42bs' claim that "The Jaguar was _not_ designed for 3D rendering..." with a quote from the reference manual (he's since changed his mind after cubanismo's excellent historical deep dive). I never made any claim about the Jaguar having hardware acceleration of any sort. Google tells me it's 1 AM in Canberra, go to bed man! It's too late to be up arguing on forums 😛 edit: nvm I'm an idiot lol Edited July 23 by Mittens0407 undiagnosed dyslexia? that and stupidity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Just now, Mittens0407 said: No I did not? My first reply was disagreeing with 42bs' claim that "The Jaguar was _not_ designed for 3D rendering..." with a quote from the reference manual (he's since changed his mind after cubanismo's excellent historical deep dive). I never made any claim about the Jaguar having hardware acceleration of any sort. Google tells me it's 1 AM in Canberra, go to bed man! It's too late to be up arguing on forums 😛 Google is as wrong as this thread is its 12:30pm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucardX Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Even broken clocks...blah...blah..blah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mittens0407 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Just now, CyranoJ said: Google is as wrong as this thread is its 12:30pm. I just searched "time in australia" lol, didn't want to appear too stalker-ish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 minute ago, Mittens0407 said: I just searched "time in australia" lol, didn't want to appear too stalker-ish Yeah well I don't think Australia is 12 hours wide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mittens0407 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 3 minutes ago, CyranoJ said: Yeah well I don't think Australia is 12 hours wide Hmm, now that you mention it my map does look a tiny bit off... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 3 hours ago, Mittens0407 said: No I did not? My first reply was disagreeing with 42bs' claim that "The Jaguar was _not_ designed for 3D rendering..." with a quote from the reference manual (he's since changed his mind after cubanismo's excellent historical deep dive). I never made any claim about the Jaguar having hardware acceleration of any sort. Google tells me it's 1 AM in Canberra, go to bed man! It's too late to be up arguing on forums 😛 edit: nvm I'm an idiot lol I think you just hit the proverbial nail on the head and sorted the entire thread out. The Jaguar WAS built for 3D, and was, at the time, better suited than what came before *due to its speed, not any 3D 'features'*, it just has NO HARDWARE ACCELERATION. Can we end this now? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Just in case someone wants to compare and contrast by doing. Here are the links to dev suites that may be comparable: Neo Geo: https://github.com/dciabrin/ngdevkit Jaguar: https://www.reboot-games.com/jagstudio/ ..as a side I'm a slowpoke about doing instead of dreaming. So, not a knock on anyone here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42bs Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 But ... (ok, lets end it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubanismo Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) On 7/22/2024 at 12:39 AM, CyranoJ said: They are, but none use 3D acceleration, they're all software renderers (which is what the Jaguar does) This is like arguing over whether water is solid or liquid, and giving only true/false options for the answer. The Jaguar isn't software rendering just because it doesn't accelerate the parts of the 3D pipeline other contemporary architectures did using only inflexible fixed-function hardware. Go back and read the articles I posted with words directly from the designers' mouth. The point of JRISC was to have a processor fast enough to accelerate 3D. The blitter and CRY were designed to make gouraud shaded 3D fast. That *is* fixed function hardware used to accelerate 3D. You can use it for other stuff if you want, but that's true of any HW that isn't heinously inflexible. E.g., no one stops you from using a triangle rasterizer for accelerating rendering of 2D rectangles, but that doesn't mean a triangle rasterizer isn't a valid 3D acceleration tool. I don't even understand why this is contentious. The people who built the hardware built it for 3D. That's fact, not some number-wang theory. It can and does do other stuff because they included some existing 2D functionality they already had, and because they built a very flexible architecture as opposed to the "groundbreaking" 3D hardware that came just after it. Don't want to do 3D? Think the Jaguar is better used for 2D than 3D? Those are opinions, and I have no problem with them. Are well written 2D games going to run faster than well written 3D games of similar visual complexity on the Jaguar? Do you have to manually multiply your triangle vertices by a matrix using dirty, smelly JRISC instructions instead of calling transformPoint()? Yes, and note transformPoint(), whatever you call it, was implemented using dirty, smelly x86 instructions on all PC "3D accelerators" until around the GeForce 256 era in 1999, and quickly replaced by dirty, smelly microcode again almost immediately after that. That doesn't change the facts: 1) The primary design goal (not an afterthought) of the Jaguar chipset was 3D. 2) It has hardware acceleration of significant portions of the 3D rendering pipeline, no matter how you try to define hardware acceleration and how much you try to belittle the blitter. I mean seriously @Zerosquare? You're objecting because the blitter only accelerated 1D interpolation? *All* rasterization boils down to 1D interpolation! And it's awesome that CRY let's them only interpolate luma and still have a usable lighting solution. That's the whole point, and reinforces that it's for 3D, not an argument for why it's *not* meant for 3D! Does not having double-buffered registers mean the blitter is unusable for 3D, but fine for 2D? No, that's a crazy thing to imply. It's not ideal for either, but hardware rarely is ideal. It still works. I love you guys Reboot, you make great games, you keep things hopping in Jaguar land, and you've been here way longer than me, but you're wrong in every direction in as many dimensions as you care to contemplate here. Edited July 24 by cubanismo Edited to correct attribution of the first quote and edited again to remove the last part making accusations that were actually based on me misreading the ordering of some posts in the thread. It's late. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubanismo Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 On 7/22/2024 at 10:07 PM, CyranoJ said: it just has NO HARDWARE ACCELERATION. Can we end this now? No, because this is false. https://xkcd.com/386/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 6 hours ago, cubanismo said: No, because this is false. https://xkcd.com/386/ /smfh whatever everyone If imult plus line draw with shading, a blitter that takes longer to set up than to actually draw the lines yourself, and a z-buffer that clogs the bus into sludge = designed for 3D then you are quite correct and I stand corrected, otherwise I think you just have 2xFast (for the time) RISC CPUs - One crippled by a 16bit bus, and the other crippled by tiny scratch ram - and BOTH crippled by the shared bus. Whats next, the DSP was designed for polyphonic symphonic orchestral playback with vocal synthesis ? The 68000 was designed for 3D because it has MULU and MULS ? BASIC was designed for 3D because it has SIN, COS, TAN ? Plotters were designed for 3D because they can draw perfectly straight lines from vectors? When you find the triangle rendering hardware, call me. In all cases, it ain't worth fighting over. Can't we all just enjoy the quirky cat? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucardX Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Trying to z-buffer this debate is giving my brain bus contention. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) Well in the PC world there have been a few poor 3D accelerators ("3D decelerator" 😀 ) Edited July 24 by phoenixdownita 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) I can already tell this is going to be one of those threads that just keeps on giving. You keep doing you, Jag forum. It makes boring days at work go by so much faster. I love all the, "Well it was clearly intended to be a 3D machine" comments. Yeah, well.. I intended to start today off on the right foot, waking up on time, getting some exercise and eating a healthy, home cooked meal afterwards. Instead, I actually slept through my alarm and got to work late, sat on my ass all day and ate McDonald's for lunch. My intentions, while good, were very different from how things actually turned out. Kind of like the Jaguar. Edited July 24 by Austin 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucardX Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, phoenixdownita said: Well in the PC world there have been a few poor 3D accelerators ("3D decelerator" 😀 ) I'm really tired of the machine learning generated voices being used in these shit videos. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, alucardX said: I'm really tired of the machine learning generated voices being used in these shit videos. It's just as bad with auto generated shit content on websites. I thought it was bad that nobody could spell or proofread, but the stuff is much worse than that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 http://intel-vintage-developer.eu5.org/DRG/MMX/APPNOTES/3DMMXOV.HTM “For best performance, SW designers using MMX technology must carefully tune for system bandwidths. Existing PCI bus and graphics chips constrain throughput to graphics cards to about 80 MBytes/sec for writes, and far less for reads. Likewise current main-memory systems typically have less than 160 MBytes/sec total sustainable bandwidth. However, the external cache of the CPU has more than twice this speed, and the internal cache more than 10x the main memory speed. Code designers should ensure their algorithms and data stay in the caches as much as possible, and should avoid reading data from the graphics card (via the PCI bus). Even the new A.G.P. bus is significantly faster for writes than for reads from the CPU, so software should avoid reading directly from the RAM on the graphics card. The A.G.P. bus facilitates sharing of main memory regions at high bandwidth by both the graphics chip and the CPU” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucardX Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 17 minutes ago, Stephen said: It's just as bad with auto generated shit content on websites. I thought it was bad that nobody could spell or proofread, but the stuff is much worse than that. Humans are much better at AI than machines are. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jguff Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Did anyone else notice the pack-in game (and one of only three launch titles) was 3D? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42bs Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 5 minutes ago, jguff said: Did anyone else notice the pack-in game (and one of only three launch titles) was 3D? You mean the one which was advertised using the ground breaking morphing feature of the Jaguar? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 Meanwhile: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 On 7/24/2024 at 8:35 PM, Austin said: I can already tell this is going to be one of those threads that just keeps on giving. You keep doing you, Jag forum. It makes boring days at work go by so much faster. I love all the, "Well it was clearly intended to be a 3D machine" comments. Yeah, well.. I intended to start today off on the right foot, waking up on time, getting some exercise and eating a healthy, home cooked meal afterwards. Instead, I actually slept through my alarm and got to work late, sat on my ass all day and ate McDonald's for lunch. My intentions, while good, were very different from how things actually turned out. Kind of like the Jaguar. Really convincing anecdote of someone randomly rambling about something....completely unrelated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 (edited) On 7/24/2024 at 10:42 AM, CyranoJ said: /smfh whatever everyone If imult plus line draw with shading, a blitter that takes longer to set up than to actually draw the lines yourself, and a z-buffer that clogs the bus into sludge = designed for 3D then you are quite correct and I stand corrected, otherwise I think you just have 2xFast (for the time) RISC CPUs - One crippled by a 16bit bus, and the other crippled by tiny scratch ram - and BOTH crippled by the shared bus. I could play bullshit bingo on that game of rhetorics. Its always the same tactic, putting a negative spin on everything and dramatize it to the point of ridicule. Its the opposite of a sincere or measured judgement. Meanwhile we get ST ports of 3D games that originally were programmed on an 8 MHZ Motorola. Don't think too much about that. For a more sincere analysis, and for anyone interested in some solid information, read this website carefully: https://fabiensanglard.net/another_world_polygons_Jaguar/ Over and out. Edited July 27 by agradeneu 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: Really convincing anecdote of someone randomly rambling about something....completely unrelated. It was about intentions, which is very much related. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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