Neo Geo games to Jaguar? Would be possible?

[jguff]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Meanwhile: 

 

 

 

Edited July 27 by jguff

[alucardX]

On 7/25/2024 at 6:44 AM, 42bs said:

You mean the one which was advertised using the ground breaking morphing feature of the Jaguar?

It was better than blast processing.

[phoenixdownita]

If you look at what was around not even Gourad shaded games were a thing.

In the Arcade we had Hard driving and then Race driving, Winning Run, eventually Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter (the first one) and they are all flat shaded.

 

VF 2 got textures (Sega Model 2 board) and Daytona USA and Sega Rally (also Model 2). 
 

So the Jag designers weren’t totally off the mark, granted the PS1 nailed it, even the Saturn was better at 3D (fast second RISC however there was some support for textured quad shearing on one of the vdps).

 

As I already linked the first S3 with 3d ambitions missed the mark (S3 Virge) but so did ATI with the first 3d Rage and even NVidia NV1 was meh… 

 

I think missing the mark does not mean it was not designed for it, CJ remarks on bandwidth hogs for Z buffer support and too much setup for the blitter when dealing with small triangles do point at issues for sure.

 

Of note is that even Daytona USA arcade was 30fps, so if the Jag could crank 20 it would have been quite good.

 

I don’t enjoy Cybermorph (I find it boring) but it’s indeed 3d and with a half decent frame rate, to my eyes on par or better to StarFox on SNES and Virtua Racing on Genesis.

Indeed Sony nailed it with the PS, for that time (texture warping was a thing but back then we didn’t really care that much).

 

The designers are honest in saying they were learning as they went along and made the choice to not support textures, mistakes were made for sure but they did design it with some 3d support, they did have that vision (that as we know was lacking on Sega with the Saturn until their ‘oh shit’ moment).

[Editorb]

I use fancy computer all day every day, but last coding I did was text adventure in Basic on North Star Horizon. I enjoy reading a lot about how stuff like Jag works and can kinda follow along in a lameman’s kinda way.

 

Been playing I-War. Bouncing up and down smoothly in 3D (not 2.5) world makes this bumpkin suspect that if Jag not designed for 3D, whether hardware- or software-based, they sure concocted a heck of an accident. 

[agradeneu]

On 7/27/2024 at 7:44 PM, alucardX said:

It was better than blast processing.

"Morphing features" is not even mentioned in the reference manual. Its totally meaningless in the context of the subject.  It was just a PR buzzword. However, it serves as another cheap distraction to create confusion and deflect and ridicule any facts that clearly prove the sincere thesis of Jaguar being 3d focused hardware design.

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

10 hours ago, Editorb said:

I use fancy computer all day every day, but last coding I did was text adventure in Basic on North Star Horizon. I enjoy reading a lot about how stuff like Jag works and can kinda follow along in a lameman’s kinda way.

 

Been playing I-War. Bouncing up and down smoothly in 3D (not 2.5) world makes this bumpkin suspect that if Jag not designed for 3D, whether hardware- or software-based, they sure concocted a heck of an accident. 

Best Jaguar games are 3D: Tempest2000, Iron Soldier, Battlemorph. Even Doom and AvP are a far cry from the usual sidescrolling tilemapped games.

 

Zool2/Bubsy did not need this fancy multiprocessor RISC thing at all.

 

Look at real powerful 2D hardware in the Arcades, e.g. CPS2 of 1993.

 

You will find a 68K CPU and a custom graphics chip for tile maps and sprites.

 

The Jaguar is very good with 2D, but its more complicated than it needs to be to keep up with special hardware like NEOGEO or CPS2. 

 

For scrolling a simple pixmap and moving a couple of sprites, the Jaguar is massively overengineered.

 

Unfortunality, GPU and Blitter are rarely used to create some interesting or truly innovative runtime effects in a 2D game. The best example might be Defender 2000 or Tempest 2000 Blitter effects ("melt o vision") by Jeff Minter, he uses the hardware in very creative ways.

 

Then you have a bread and butter game like Raiden, that only does the basic things lower spec hardware (take a look at the Arcade hardware) already do as good. 

 

I understand that it is a very comfy thing to downplay Jaguars capabilities, may it be 2D or 3D, but that does not make you a decent game developer! 

 

 

 

 

And this is not theoretical talk, JAS and Gravitic Mines are, to a great margin, the results of me pushing constantly during the development process,  firmly confident that ambition was the limiting factor, not hardware! That is the way I function when working on a game.

 

I would do the same for a 3D game, but as an pixel artist/designer, I prefer doing 2D games.  However, I could imagine to cowork/help with a 3D game if there was a capable expierienced coder doing that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7 by agradeneu

[Zerosquare]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 I could imagine to cowork/help with a 3D game if there was a capable expierienced coder doing that.

Yup. It's well-known that coders love to work with people who dismiss their work and experience, and claim they're not good enough. Especially when such people don't code themselves.

[+CyranoJ]

Guys just stop ok, this isn't in any way productive. I know you all respect each other so stop with the acupuncture jabs.

[JagChris]

On 8/6/2024 at 4:37 PM, Editorb said:

I use fancy computer all day every day, but last coding I did was text adventure in Basic on North Star Horizon. I enjoy reading a lot about how stuff like Jag works and can kinda follow along in a lameman’s kinda way.

 

Been playing I-War. Bouncing up and down smoothly in 3D (not 2.5) world makes this bumpkin suspect that if Jag not designed for 3D, whether hardware- or software-based, they sure concocted a heck of an accident. 

If @Seedy1812 ever finds out he's accidentally added more missions/levels to it one weekend in a fit of drunken nostalgia he should consider selling it through Atari. 

[agradeneu]

19 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

Yup. It's well-known that coders love to work with people who dismiss their work and experience, and claim they're not good enough. Especially when such people don't code themselves.

That goes both ways. If your aim was to destroy any future collaboration efforts, you can congratulate yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by agradeneu

[Seedy1812]

8 hours ago, JagChris said:

If @Seedy1812 ever finds out he's accidentally added more missions/levels to it one weekend in a fit of drunken nostalgia he should consider selling it through Atari. 

Never going to happen as to start with i don't have all the files to make a new version. ( source and data )

[Punisher5.0]

I have to say that Im impressed with how relatively civil this thread has gone. Its disappointing though to see people willing to end relationships over such a stupid (off) topic. Hopefully cooler heads can prevail and see just how ridiculous that is. I really dont want to kick anyone out of the thread so let's get back on topic to wether the Jaguar can handle Neo Geo games.

[agradeneu]

25 minutes ago, Punisher5.0 said:

I have to say that Im impressed with how relatively civil this thread has gone. Its disappointing though to see people willing to end relationships over such a stupid (off) topic. Hopefully cooler heads can prevail and see just how ridiculous that is. I really dont want to kick anyone out of the thread so let's get back on topic to wether the Jaguar can handle Neo Geo games.

The question/topic must be: Are there coders and artist capable of delivering NEO GEO quality games on Jaguar?

 

BTW I don't owe anyone anything, I prefer to work independently on projects with people that share the same goals. 

 

 

 

 

[JagChris]

14 hours ago, Seedy1812 said:

Never going to happen as to start with i don't have all the files to make a new version. ( source and data )

I was playing Doom the other day on HD TV. It looks like the title screen is off center. 

Then switched to I-WAR. The title image is centered and very sharp. The presentation is very good and the game is pretty enjoyable. 

 

You did a pretty good job Seedy. I know you don't have good memories of those experiences and that's unfortunate. You have helped contribute to an era we're very fond of obviously.

[Seedy1812]

11 hours ago, JagChris said:

I was playing Doom the other day on HD TV. It looks like the title screen is off center. 

Then switched to I-WAR. The title image is centered and very sharp. The presentation is very good and the game is pretty enjoyable. 

 

You did a pretty good job Seedy. I know you don't have good memories of those experiences and that's unfortunate. You have helped contribute to an era we're very fond of obviously.

I can't take any credit for gameplay/3D engine  on I-War as that was Karl West. With out looking at the code I think the title screen was 640 wide screen so when scaling the screen to show the credits it showed 2 320 wide screen. This way you would not lose any pixels. 

[alucardX]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:41 AM, jguff said:

 

Clearly that is not the same as Samurai Showdown in the arcade or the NEOGEO but it gives me nostalgia. There is magic in a well produced GameBoy game trying to recreate the experiences of games on more capable systems. My hat is off to anyone that has ever pulled off a good GameBoy port. I'm not sure how this version plays but it looks quite nice and it brings me to my days of reading through Nintendo Power magazines and wanting all the games in those books while having money for none of them.

[Editorb]

6 hours ago, Seedy1812 said:

I can't take any credit for gameplay/3D engine  on I-War as that was Karl West. 

Debuting for One Game Only as Karl Vest. 

[Seedy1812]

22 hours ago, Editorb said:

Debuting for One Game Only as Karl Vest. 

That pissed him off. I don't think Atari got the manual proof read

 

[agradeneu]

Since the OPs topic was already discussed in detail, here is some fairly technical and comprehensive answer from user "kskunk" I found in a older thread:

 

Posted October 20, 2017 (edited)

  On 10/20/2017 at 1:36 AM, philipj said:

I wonder how fast a Neo Geo could access a cartridge versus the Atari Jaguar.

If the Jag had faster access to cart data, it certainly would make up for some lagging aspects that plagued the Jag.

"I don't think I can adequately summarize all the hardware differences - their designs are so different, apples and oranges.

 

But, there's not a huge difference between the ROM speeds when it comes to graphics performance.

 

The Jaguar total ROM bandwidth is 10.6MB/sec (32-bit ROM at 2.66MHz/376ns)

Neo Geo graphics come mostly from sprite ROM at 12MB/sec (2x16-bit C ROMs at 3MHz/333ns)

 

Neo Geo can use 100% of its 12MB/s sprite bandwidth, but the Jaguar can obliterate that with a portion of its giant RAM bandwidth (100MB/sec).

And that's what Jaguar games do - 2MB is a ton of RAM when your biggest cart is 4MB.

It's not like every level uses every background and every character simultaneously - they use a fraction, and the RAM is a fine cache for that.

 

Nor is the Jaguar that slow at 2D. The Neo Geo has a slight edge when every single sprite is scaled (1536 pixels/line vs ~1200 w/OP overhead), but the Jaguar can keep up with the Neo Geo's typical mix of scaled, unscaled, and fix (overlay) graphics.

The Jaguar's 68K is crippled compared to the Neo Geo's, so CPU utilization would be a sore spot (as always), necessitating something like Minter's GPU Object List Builder to keep everything moving at 60Hz.

 

My opinion is that the Jaguar is harder to program, but could offer comparable 2D performance.

Neo Geo was making expensive games - with expensive ROMs and expensive art. Atari was making everything the cheapest they could.

That probably explains more of the difference than any single technical factor like ROM speed or bugs."

 

 

It supports my POV with much more greater technical knowledge and actual figures regarding bandwidth. Of course, 2MB RAM is a huge advantage, 68K slowing down the system/bus nothing too surprising.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14 by agradeneu

[Ericde45]

so, to summarize in the right reality :

 

- rom speed for Jag is 10 MB/s, too slow to hold graphics in rom to display them directly.

- so graphics must be put in RAM on JAG

- neogeo can use directly graphics from rom

- JAG has 2 MB ram

- a neogeo cartridge can be nearly 90 MB

- 90 does not fit in 2

- JAG can not run a complete neogeo game using all neogeo capacities.

 

game over.

 

( you could try converting this one to JAG, it seems possible :

 ) ...

 

[agradeneu]

15 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

so, to summarize in the right reality :

 

- rom speed for Jag is 10 MB/s, too slow to hold graphics in rom to display them directly.

- so graphics must be put in RAM on JAG

- neogeo can use directly graphics from rom

- JAG has 2 MB ram

- a neogeo cartridge can be nearly 90 MB

- 90 does not fit in 2

- JAG can not run a complete neogeo game using all neogeo capacities.

 

game over.

 

( you could try converting this one to JAG, it seems possible :

 ) ...

 

Read again what he wrote, maybe you understand

Yes, NeoGeo can read directly, but marginally faster. Jaguar RAM is dramatically faster, you dont need all gfx of the game hold in RAM.

I wonder if you try to misinterpret him intentionally, full denial mode.

Its simply not what he said, so be at least respectful to him.

 

 

Edited August 14 by agradeneu

[Ericde45]

i exactly wrote my message because you are not able to understand what he said.

 

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

5 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

i exactly wrote my message because you are not able to understand what he said.

 

 

 

 

Ok, so you fully deny to comprehend english language?!

Like always you are bullshitting like a jerk, get lost

Edited August 14 by agradeneu

[alucardX]

If I understand correctly he's theorizing that the Jaguar, while harder to program for, could probably match many of the things the NeoGeo was doing visually?

[Ericde45]

you can match but you can not storage all the graphics

so , as CJ explained, you can re-do a level of a game. not all the game.