Neo Geo games to Jaguar? Would be possible?

[agradeneu]

I looked at the sources, and actually edited an animation sheet in 16 color palette, ready for raptorizing.

 

I can now imagine the required work to edit the massive art assets. Of course, the sprites are not tiled in 16x16, but rather in different sizes, e.g. 96x68 pixels/7 frames. Data size is around 22 kByte. 

So basically, around 90x individual, large animated sprite sheets like this chopper would fit into system RAM. 

That is quite some space to work with! 

 

In comparison, the other is my animation sheet of the mech suit walking as it is used in Jumping at Shadows.

The sprite is 8 bit color, 10 frames, 48 colors, 56x58 pixels, 32 Kbyte.

 

 

 

Edited August 15 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

Some interesting example of a large background in Gravitic Mines, sitting as a huge sprite in RAM, consuming about 0,9MB of 2 MB RAM.

So basically, a level in GM is ONE huge sprite, and its size and color detail is limited by RAM.

 

However, what about dividing the huge sprite in smaller sectors/sprites, e,g. collumns and keep only those needed in RAM depending on the the postion of the camera viewport? 

 

That would result into larger maps possible, while freeing up space for larger sprites.

 

And now, take a look at the bandwidth of the ROM bus. 10 MB/sec. Ok, that means I could pull 10x of such large sprite into RAM per second. Does not sound that slow anymore?  

 

[phoenixdownita]

5 hours ago, agradeneu said:

The Jaguar has 2MB RAM with much higher bandwidth (100MB7sec), so it was dumb to read all graphics directly from ROM. Please read again, what "kskunk" and what I have written how I would use RAM and ROM of the Jaguar for the best effect. 

Jaguar and NEOGEO are apples and oranges in hardware design, e.g. because you have a proper size of RAM, you can decompress compressed data sitting on ROM. It makes no sense to mis-use the Jaguar like it was a NEOGEO and then tell it was impossible. That is circular thinking that reproduces a false concept. 

I think we say the same thing.

I just pointed out 6MB even compressed are likely not enough to store the bigger games but that alone has nothing to do with the Jag being capable enough in 2d to support that kind of games …. 

[42bs]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

And now, take a look at the bandwidth of the ROM bus. 10 MB/sec.

If only the Jaguar had multiple busses. But while the bus is blocked reading from ROM, the OP cannot read from RAM.

[Ericde45]

that's really funny to see someone who never coded a single line, draw plan on the comet

while reading from rom, the jaguar is nearly stopped

for example you can not play music read from ram ( samples ) , reading from rom slow the system globally and causes sound issues

 

neogeo is better for 2D than jaguar, because it features larger storage , on rom , with several parallel buses

 

that's all.

 

and if during 31 years, nobody converted a big title from neogeo to jaguar, that might be because that's not possible...

Edited August 15 by Ericde45

[alucardX]

1 hour ago, Ericde45 said:

that's really funny to see someone who never coded a single line, draw plan on the comet

while reading from rom, the jaguar is nearly stopped

for example you can not play music read from ram ( samples ) , reading from rom slow the system globally and causes sound issues

 

neogeo is better for 2D than jaguar, because it features larger storage , on rom , with several parallel buses

 

that's all.

 

and if during 31 years, nobody converted a big title from neogeo to jaguar, that might be because that's not possible...

It could also be not worth the effort. Licensing alone, as has been mentioned, will make this effort nothing more than a new challenge with the reward being that you figured it out. Beyond that there is not much reason to do it.

[agradeneu]

11 hours ago, alucardX said:

It could also be not worth the effort. Licensing alone, as has been mentioned, will make this effort nothing more than a new challenge with the reward being that you figured it out. Beyond that there is not much reason to do it.

In 31 years, nobody converted a title from Lynx (insert random system) to Jaguar. Must be impossible.🤡

 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

13 hours ago, Ericde45 said:

that's really funny to see someone who never coded a single line, draw plan on the comet

while reading from rom, the jaguar is nearly stopped

for example you can not play music read from ram ( samples ) , reading from rom slow the system globally and causes sound issues

 

neogeo is better for 2D than jaguar, because it features larger storage , on rom , with several parallel buses

 

that's all.

 

and if during 31 years, nobody converted a big title from neogeo to jaguar, that might be because that's not possible...

Writing a line of code does not make your ramblings less incomprehensive. 

[str0m]

Just have loading sections each level. If anyone complained that the gameplay was broken up for a few seconds each level a couple of times then really they aren't worth listening to. I mean the games have this anyway at numerous points when you enter things like caves etc there is a second or two pause on real NG hardware.

 

 

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, str0m said:

Just have loading sections each level. If anyone complained that the gameplay was broken up for a few seconds each level a couple of times then really they aren't worth listening to. I mean the games have this anyway at numerous points when you enter things like caves etc there is a second or two pause on real NG hardware.

 

 

You can mask loading sections, I agree. There are lot of possibilties to make things work, on any system. 

 

Its called application/game development. The job is to solve problems.

 

 

 

 

[42bs]

23 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

In 31 years, nobody converted a title from Lynx (insert random system) to Jaguar. Must be impossible.🤡

 

 

Wyvern Tales?
ST ports?
T-tris ?

[42bs]

21 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Writing a line of code does not make your ramblings less incomprehensive. 

The problem is, you argue with numbers which are true on its own.

 

DRAM: 64bit x 26.6Mhz/2 (best case) = 106MB/s

or

ROM: 32bit x 26.6MHz/8 = 13MB/s

 

But if there is a ROM access pending it will block all others.

 

If you would have coding experience on the Jaguar, you would understand, that ROM access limits the system.

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Wyvern Tales?
ST ports?
T-tris ?

Wyvern Tales is not a port. 

ST is not a Lynx.

 

Ok, what is special about T-tris?

 

 

My point is, saying a thing was not possible because it had not been done yet makes no sense.

 

For thousands of years, the dream of human flight was impossible,cars, computers, pick any example of human progressof the last centuries.

[42bs]

Just now, agradeneu said:

Wyvern Tales is not a port. 

ST is not a Lynx.

 

Ok, what is special about T-tris?

 

 

My point is, saying a thing was not possible because it had not been done yet makes no sense.

 

For thousands of years, the dream of human flight was impossible,cars, computers, pick any example of human progressof the last centuries.

You wrote:

 

8 minutes ago, 42bs said:

(insert random system)

which I did with the ST

 

And the major point is the legal argument. A port would have been interesting in 1994 or 1995. But a port is nothing for a hobby programmer esp. if it is not legally backed up. But hey we have a Frogger port. 🙂

[agradeneu]

15 minutes ago, 42bs said:

The problem is, you argue with numbers which are true on its own.

 

DRAM: 64bit x 26.6Mhz/2 (best case) = 106MB/s

or

ROM: 32bit x 26.6MHz/8 = 13MB/s

 

But if there is a ROM access pending it will block all others.

 

If you would have coding experience on the Jaguar, you would understand, that ROM access limits the system.

Your concept is flawed. You need to access ROM in a game, no matter what. Preferable you load all necessary data form ROm to RAM and then start the level.

Whenever you load from ROM, your game can pause. I does not make the Jaguar explode or any other catastrophy would happen.

 

Streaming data from ROM was possible on the Lynx, despite shortcomings Lordkraken can explain much better then me. Drawbacks, e.g. are slower scrolling speeds. 

 

In fact, when I was proposing the idea of streaming level maps to CJ, he was not shooting it down like you do.

 

So, working on actual team project and communication is something completely different than those childish talks here.

 

And of course, its totally irrelevant in real developer communication, if I wrote a line of code. 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, 42bs said:

You wrote:

 

which I did with the ST

 

 

Insert any system that was not ported to Jaguar yet. I thought that was self explanatory.  

[42bs]

3 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Your concept is flawed. You need to access ROM in a game, no matter what. Preferable you load all necessary data form ROm to RAM and then start the level.

Whenever you load from ROM, your game can pause. I does not make the Jaguar explode or any other catastrophy would happen.

 

Streaming data from ROM was possible on the Lynx, despite shortcomings Lordkraken can explain much better then me. Drawbacks, e.g. are slower scrolling speeds. 

You somewhere up wrote, it would be possible to get gfx from ROM on the fly because 10MB/s is quick enough. @Ericde45 and me pointed out to you, that there is one bus and while you loading from ROM, you get wait states in other acesses.

 

And hell, yeah, you can "stream" the Lynx ROM. I do this with lniccc2000 as well. But there are two busses. One for the ROM and one for the RAM. So video DMA can continue while waiting for bytes to come. But on the Jaguar, there is only _one_ single bus.

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, 42bs said:

You somewhere up wrote, it would be possible to get gfx from ROM on the fly because 10MB/s is quick enough. @Ericde45 and me pointed out to you, that there is one bus and while you loading from ROM, you get wait states in other acesses.

 

And hell, yeah, you can "stream" the Lynx ROM. I do this with lniccc2000 as well. But there are two busses. One for the ROM and one for the RAM. So video DMA can continue while waiting for bytes to come. But on the Jaguar, there is only _one_ single bus.

Yep, the Jaguar is a multiprocessor machine with a single bus. That is true with any software you want to make run on the system. 

 

You keep doubledowning on warping everything what I said and creating strawmen to shoot down the basic idea without even testing it in a meaningful way.    

 

First, peak bandwidth does not mean I would pull large data from ROM if it slows down the system. In my example, a 0,9 MB bitmap would be divided into smaller chunks that were around 50Kbytes each.

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[42bs]

11 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

And of course, its totally irrelevant in real developer communication, if I wrote a line of code. 

 

Right, no need to write a line of code, but "know" something about the machine before starting claims is the point.

[42bs]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

Yep, the Jaguar is a multiprocessor machine with a single bus. That is true with any software you want to make run on the system. 

 

Finally you accept it. Now scroll back and check your ROM loading arguments with this new knowledge.

[agradeneu]

6 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Right, no need to write a line of code, but "know" something about the machine before starting claims is the point.

You should do some homework on graphics, seriously.

[agradeneu]

11 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Right, no need to write a line of code, but "know" something about the machine before starting claims is the point.

Nope, its a matter of attitude, not knowledge. Your attitude is the antithesis of software development and you mask it with some sort of superiorety complex.

 

Where is your knowledge developing games more complex than a mediocre clone of Tetris?! 

 

I would say you lack some ambition and it shows in your arguments. 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[42bs]

8 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

You should do some homework on graphics, seriously.

No, because I make no false claims w.r.t GFX.

[agradeneu]

18 minutes ago, 42bs said:

 

 

And hell, yeah, you can "stream" the Lynx ROM. I do this with lniccc2000 as well. But there are two busses. One for the ROM and one for the RAM. So video DMA can continue while waiting for bytes to come. But on the Jaguar, there is only _one_ single bus.

But Jaguar has 2MB RAM with much larger bandwidth instead of 64kbyte on the Lynx, you forgot?

 

[42bs]

6 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Where is your knowledge developing games more complex than a mediocre clone of Tetris?! 

I am no game developer. Never claimed it. JagTris is a POC that GPU only works on the Jaguar ( and actually, at that time, no Tetris clone was available for the Jaguar).