Neo Geo games to Jaguar? Would be possible?

[agradeneu]

7 minutes ago, 42bs said:

No, because I make no false claims w.r.t GFX.

Let me tell this, Gravitic Mines was a false claim, until it became reality. 

 

You already were proven wrong that you questioned Gravitic Mines holding 42 MB data on a 6MB cart! Your strawmen are burning along the road and you keep creating new ones as we go.

 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, 42bs said:

I am no game developer. 

Finally, YOU got it! Congrats!

[42bs]

9 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I would say you lack some ambition and it shows in your arguments. 

Ambition for what? The Jaguar?
https://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[0]=Atari+Jaguar&page=1

[agradeneu]

17 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Ambition for what? The Jaguar?
https://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[0]=Atari+Jaguar&page=1

Look, These are respectful works, but hardly qualify as games or stuff that includes anything that resembles art assets.

Iam not sure why you try to shoot down the idea of porting NEOGEO games to Jaguar then, with questionable and mostly false assertions regarding 2D pixel graphics. 

 

Sorry to say this, but you appear quite clueless about pixel graphics and it would be better for you to discuss with an open mind, instead of doubledowing into realms of self indulgent bigotery.

 

Its also obviuos to me, that the only only reason you are here is to ruin any sincere discussion about the topic!

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[42bs]

3 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Look, These are respectful works, but hardly qualify as games or stuff that includes anything that resembles art assets.

Iam not sure why you try to shoot down the idea of porting NEOGEO games to Jaguar then, with questionable and mostly false assertions regarding 2D pixel graphics. 

 

Sorry to say this, but you appear quite clueless about pixel graphics and it would be better for you to discuss with an open mind, instead of doubledowing into realms of self indulging bigotery.

I did not pull down the idea of porting Neo Geo games per se. But we already (you it seems not) came to the conlusion, that
- A NG game of 40 or more MBytes is nearly not portable, at least not if one sticks to a 6MB cart (to make it affordable).

- Porting such game opens a bunch of legal problems.

- A port would mean a re-write of the game since the Jag's 68k is to slow handling it alone. NG can stream music from the ROM IIRC, something which would need to be changed for the Jaguar as well.

 

But you come up with strange ideas which show that you have no knowledge about coding. Remember our discussion about "enhanced JagTris"?
When others point this out to you, you even come up with more weird arguments.
 

And in the end, if someone is a good game developer (which I am not, I will never try to wear these shoes), why should (s)he waste time trying to port a game from another console instead of doing something new?

[42bs]

17 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Look, These are respectful works, but hardly qualify as games or stuff that includes anything that resembles art assets.

It shows my ambition for the Jaguar. Not for game development. 🙂

 

- EOF -

Edited August 16 by 42bs

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, 42bs said:

I did not pull down the idea of porting Neo Geo games per se. But we already (you it seems not) came to the conlusion, that
- A NG game of 40 or more MBytes is nearly not portable, at least not if one sticks to a 6MB cart (to make it affordable).

- Porting such game opens a bunch of legal problems.

- A port would mean a re-write of the game since the Jag's 68k is to slow handling it alone. NG can stream music from the ROM IIRC, something which would need to be changed for the Jaguar as well.

 

But you come up with strange ideas which show that you have no knowledge about coding. Remember our discussion about "enhanced JagTris"?
When others point this out to you, you even come up with more weird arguments.
 

And in the end, if someone is a good game developer (which I am not, I will never try to wear these shoes), why should (s)he waste time trying to port a game from another console instead of doing something new?

LOl, I agree with most of your points, but they hardly prove the "impossibilty" of NEOGEO ports!

 

Now that you brought it up, I suggested following "strange" ideas  to you, regarding an enhanced T-Tris version:

 

- 2 player mode (like SNES)

- nicer graphics overlay and sprites

- some interesting effects when clearing a line

 

Well, how are those ideas "strange"? How does that prove to you I had no "knowledge in coding"?

 

 

Look, there might be a reason the games I worked on are more attractive visually than the average homebrew demo, expecially if you ask money for them. 

 

 

I realized very quickly that you regard graphics and visual attractiveness of a game as non essential and a waste of time.

 

 

That is the reason why any discussion with you about the matter was fruitless and I will never ask again. 

 

And ultimately, it makes your position in the discussion on NEO GEO ports very questionable. If you are too lazy or ignorant to even understand the idea of a Tetris game better than the average 8 bit clone, why would anyone believe your dismissive views on NEOGEO games?! Of course its impossible, but for YOU!

 

 

 

Look, no matter what someone contributes to Jaguar gaming, after 6 years and 3 major releases, in case of disagrement with the vested interests of your little elite club, everyone will be treated like a "Jagtard".

 

Lets say Iam not surprised, while still being disappointed about the truth. 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[jguff]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Gravitic Mines holding 42 MB data on a 6MB cart

 

 

Are the Gravitic Mines stage images un-tiled in the 42 MB of uncompressed data?

 

If so, how big are Metal Slug 1 stage images when un-tiled (converted to sprites)?  Metal Slug 1 ROM is 25 MB large, but is tiled, and that tiling (along with 4 bit color) has likely already compressed the visual portion of Metal Slug to near minimum size (at least when dealing with 30 year old architectures like Jaguar/NeoGeo).

The smaller file sizes produced by folks using PC/Linux zip tools is misleading.  Those tools are compressing across all game assets, when Jaguar targeted compression scheme would need compression limited to assets across a level.

 

Seems like this could be good motivation to learn some programming/Python.  Install Anaconda and PyArcade, downloading some of the Metal Slug 1 sprite rips, downloading Kawaks to rip/view additional sprites/tiles, and analyze how many pixels/bytes Metal Slug 1 is really displaying, and how many pixels/bytes needed for a level. 

[agradeneu]

15 minutes ago, jguff said:

Are the Gravitic Mines stage images un-tiled in the 42 MB of uncompressed data?

 

If so, how big are Metal Slug 1 stage images when un-tiled (converted to sprites)?  Metal Slug 1 ROM is 25 MB large, but is tiled, and that tiling (along with 4 bit color) has likely already compressed the visual portion of Metal Slug to near minimum size (at least when dealing with 30 year old architectures like Jaguar/NeoGeo).

The smaller file sizes produced by folks using PC/Linux zip tools is misleading.  Those tools are compressing across all game assets, when Jaguar targeted compression scheme would need compression limited to assets across a level.

 

Seems like this could be good motivation to learn some programming/Python.  Install Anaconda and PyArcade, downloading some of the Metal Slug 1 sprite rips, downloading Kawaks to rip/view additional sprites/tiles, and analyze how many pixels/bytes Metal Slug 1 is really displaying, and how many pixels/bytes needed for a level. 

Yes, they are 100% untiled, look above at my post with the GM level example. Jaguar can handle flexible bitmap size in 4 bit, 8 bit or 16 bit color, mostly limited by bandwidth and RAM space.

 

Yes, tiled graphics likely need less ROM space than sprites and full backgrounds. I think that is a sure bet. However, I cant say how much and how good compression must be, to offset that.

 

You could also program a tilemap engine, like we have in "Jumping at Shadows" or like Phoboz did with Asteroite or Kings of Edom. That would save space. Good thing is, tilemaps can be combined with large background layers (again in JAS). Jaguar is a very flexible machine and you constantly have to think about how to use its resources in the best way possible. 

 

However, 6MB cart space is hardly a red flag IMO, we still have Jaguar GD, and any NEO GEO porting project should start as non commercial. In fact, a lot of cool homebrew projects that are about unoffical ports, are non commercial and digital downloads, e.g. "Symphony of the Night" on Genesis, several Doom versions and so on.

 

"Symphony of the Night" is also a fine example for developers with the right attitude, and what coudl be achieved if you believe that positivity can open a vast ocean of options, opposing to what certain individuals are trying to do here. 

 

Yes, compression on Jaguar would target graphics assets. Again, it remains to be seen how it would work out.  There is no guarantee for success, like with any project. 

Jaguar GD could allow uncompressed assets, e.g. smaller sprites.

 

Again, as Jaguar and NEOGEO are very different, it wont be a walk in the park and possibly a boring nightmare.  

 

 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[42bs]

32 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Jaguar can handle flexible bitmap size in 4 bit, 8 bit or 16 bit color

1,2,4,8,16 and 24 bit.

[agradeneu]

11 minutes ago, 42bs said:

1,2,4,8,16 and 24 bit.

What is this?

 

Look, for a game, 4 bit, 8 bit and 16 bit are feasible and relevant. 

 

24 bit is NOT. And the other are mostly for misc. stuff. 

[agradeneu]

Ok, Metal Slug mission 1 asset, section 1, one layer.

 

112 colors, 417 kybte for bmp file, no loss of quality. 

 

The next section changes to 2 layers with animated water, but for now, RAM consumption does look positive!

 

With some luck, most stuff in mission 1 could fit into Jaguar RAM.

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[+CyranoJ]

I already have a tech demo with streaming backgrounds from ROM, full bitmap image, no tiles.

A 16bit 4096 x 255 16-bit bitmap packed down to 167k, and used just a few scanlines of GPU time to decompress during runtime.

 

 

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, CyranoJ said:

I already have a tech demo with streaming backgrounds from ROM, full bitmap image, no tiles.

A 16bit 4096 x 255 bitmap packed down to 167k, and used just a few scanlines of GPU time to decompress during runtime.

 

 

Now thats even better than I thought!!

[42bs]

2 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

I already have a tech demo with streaming backgrounds from ROM, full bitmap image, no tiles.

A 16bit 4096 x 255 bitmap packed down to 167k, and used just a few scanlines of GPU time to decompress during runtime.

 

 

Where to find?

[+CyranoJ]

Just now, 42bs said:

Where to find?

 

C:\JagDev\MapStream\ROMDISK\mapstream.rom

[agradeneu]

Just now, 42bs said:

Where to find?

Maybe its time for you to apologize?!

[42bs]

Just now, CyranoJ said:

 

C:\JagDev\MapStream\ROMDISK\mapstream.rom

Let me just call Putin to hack your computer.

[42bs]

6 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Maybe its time for you to apologize?!

 I have a 3D flight demo rendering >2000 polys/s. So yepp, everything is possible.

[+CyranoJ]

[42bs]

5 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

@agradeneu stated before that it contains 42MB data squezzed down to 6MB. This is impressive.
 

 

[agradeneu]

43 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

I already have a tech demo with streaming backgrounds from ROM, full bitmap image, no tiles.

A 16bit 4096 x 255 16-bit bitmap packed down to 167k, and used just a few scanlines of GPU time to decompress during runtime.

 

 

That would match the size of the full mission 1 in Metal Slug. However, that one would be 8 bit indexed, not 16 bit or CRY. 

It surpasses my most optimistic expectations, I must say! 

Edited August 16 by agradeneu

[alucardX]

I was going to suggest that rather than arguing over metal slug why don't we organize and build a demo level to an original game that does everything metal slug is doing on a level and maybe add some Jag flair to it. It looks like CJ was on it already.

 

Too many smart people here to argue in forums. All very talented and intelligent. It's much better to actually make something with that energy. I really appreciate being able to interact with such brilliant people here, sincerely.

[agradeneu]

22 minutes ago, alucardX said:

I was going to suggest that rather than arguing over metal slug why don't we organize and build a demo level to an original game that does everything metal slug is doing on a level and maybe add some Jag flair to it. It looks like CJ was on it already.

 

That is the idea,

 

make a proof of concept

[+cubanismo]

Can't wait to play Iron Bug level 1 demo.