My first flash cartridge prototype

[pmpddytim]

Here may be a solution to your case problem. Either sell it with no case, and let people put it in the case themselves. Or require people to send you a case when they order it, I think its safe to say that we all have spare games around. You could say its $x price with a case or $y price with a trade-in case or $z price with no case and instructions on how to modify the case to fit the board(which probably needs to be done). This would also probably save on cost, since almost everybody would probably just order w/o the case or run to the fleamarket to by a cheap trade-in case. Thus cases supply themselves.

 

I would pay in the ballpark of $100-150 for this fine piece of equipment.

 

As for a name how about "Sweet Mother of Christ the Cart I've been waiting for." or "Name This Cart"

 

Tim

[Kroko]

Hey Tim,

 

It looks like UK WOMBLE is going to send me enough cart cases

for the next step of the development. It would of course have to be betatested by a few people before it can be released.

 

Well, if people really like it, then I might have to buy some new cart cases which would cost about 5$ each. I guess people would like it more to pay

3 additional $$ and get a complete device .....

 

>As for a name how about "Sweet Mother of Christ the Cart I've been >waiting for."

 

Hehe, thanks ... but that won't fit on the label .....

 

-Kroko

[cschell]

SC is superchip.

I call SC Supercharger when by itself, so that is what I was referring to. Otherwise I say F6SC, etc.

 

The power supply is external. There is no connection to the VCS 5V supply. Only ground is connected. You can download files even if the VCS

is switched on. But the risk of transmission errors is higher and I recommend to switch the VCS power off, when a new ROM is transmitted.

 

Do all the chip outputs connected to the 2600 tristate when the 2600 is off?

Otherwise you have a potentially unsavory condition where your cart could attempt to power the 2600 chips through their I/O lines, which is generally a bad thing for devices not designed to tolerate this.

 

The DC power has to be connected any time, its the only power source available. But a standard 6V dc supply is all you need.

 

So the cart cannot run without it's own power supply, even if the ROM is already downloaded into the flash?

 

Does the CPLD remember the bankswitching mode when you remove power from your cart? Or does it have to be connected to a computer to be used?

 

Cost reducing is hard. I would if i had any more ideas. Maybe you can help, Chad. I need a µC which I am able to programm in assembler (AVR). It needs an UART, lots of IO-Lines at has to run @11MHz.

 

Why does it have to run at 11 MHz? What I/O lines do you need? You presumably have several I/O lines under control of the CPLD. You can use those lines under counter control to reduce the number of I/O lines required.

 

The SRAM is the only SRAM i can handle. I tried other parts but they didn't work as I wanted so I will use the 128K chip.

 

What do you mean they don't work as you wanted them to? Certainly smaller RAM chips could be used given that you also have a large flash ROM.

 

The CPLD is almost too small, so i can't choose a smaller one. Serial transmission is done by the max232.

 

The max232 is a very expensive chip if you're only receiving data from the PC. An MC1489 will do the same job for much less money, and doesn't require all the caps that the max232 requires either. Actually the MC1489 will work fine for two way serial communication to most any modern serial port, which is why you see it used that way quite often. (Look at several of the SIO2PC devices.)

 

Chad

[Kroko]

Ok, in this case I do not support SC

 

Yes, the device needs its own power supply at the moment. It will not run without it. Do you have an idea how to change this ? I have never calculated how much power it would consume .... maybe the VCS supply is sufficient. How much current could I draw from the VCS ?

 

11 Mhz is the clock for the CPLD and the 11 MHz is because the AVR UART is only accurate enough for 115KBPS serial transmission @11.0592 MHz. I tried also 7.something MHz, but that was not the kind of resolution I was aiming for in the CPLD timing. 11 seemed to be perfect to exactly time the validity of the data on the databus for best and worst case conditions of the 6507 bus specification.

 

The BS scheme is stored in the controllers EEPROM. So the device remembers what was programmed. It does not have to be connected to a computer to run. But it is intended to, because people should download their brand new stella programs every 15 minutes to check how they look like on the real thing

 

I need I/O Lines to program the Flash Perom. I made a compromise between CPLD resources and Controller resources. The 19 Adresslines have to be controlled during programming. The CPLD will only drive A7 upward (limited space ....:-(). A0 to A7 have to be controlled by the µC during flash programming. That are 8 Lines. Another 8 lines for the databus interfacing. (I didnt want to latch the data - not enough space on the CPLD.....)

 

Another 4 Lines for the BS scheme transmission (one time transmisson to a CPLD register was not stable enough..for some strange reasons I have never found out). And a few control lines for Address latching ......2 lines for RxD TxD ... well infact they are almost all used.

 

During normal operation, everything is tri-stated, when the cart is not selected. During programming, there are TTL levels on the databus and addresslines A0 to A6.

 

Well I will listen to your advise and recommend to unplug the device from the VCS before it is programmed, although i never had problems with this. Have you made different experience with your devices ?

 

Yes, the RAM is too big, because I am too stupid to figure out what I am doing wrong. Currently I need a CS2 input on the SRAM. The /OE /CE driving of the RAM simply doesn't work and I am too lazy to find out why. I want to finish this now and don't change the design details unless there is a real big problem or cost advantage. Maybe the chips are defective or its a timing issue - I don't know. I have developed the device with a 128K SRAM and now I will keep it. But you are right I could save 2 Euros with a smaller chip. Hehe ... but that will give us the possibility to use 128K of RAM for VCS PROGRAMMING !!!

 

The real expensive parts are the CPLD, the µC and of course the PCB.

 

The MAX232 + caps is less than 1 Euro at my supplier. But I will most defintely have a look at this MC1489. I was searching for a cheap device without caps but actually didn't find any. Thank you :-)

 

Can you give me a hint how you have started to program FPGAs. Did you buy some Evaluation Board ? And how do you handle these SMD parts. I think they are a pain. I am very impressed by your CC2. I would be so happy if I could learn to do something like this, before I am 100 years old ...

 

Kroko

[TheRedEye]

SEXCOPTER

[cschell]

Ok, in this case I do not support SC  

Yes, I know. And I even said I understood why you wouldn't want to support it in a flash based cart. Why the symbol? I was only clarifying my reference.

 

Yes, the device needs its own power supply at the moment. It will not run without it. Do you have an idea how to change this ? I have never calculated how much power it would consume .... maybe the VCS supply is sufficient. How much current could I draw from the VCS ?

I think it's around 300 mA max. Make sure you put the CPLD in low power mode, the XC9500 series are pretty power hungry.

 

Well I will listen to your advise and recommend to unplug the device from the VCS before it is programmed, although i never had problems with this. Have you made different experience with your devices ?

The 2600 is generally fairly tolerant of doing bad things to it. It's a general warning for electronics not just the 2600.

 

My Atari devices have never used their own power supplies, so it's not an issue for me.

 

Yes, the RAM is too big, because I am too stupid to figure out what I am doing wrong. Currently I need a CS2 input on the SRAM. The /OE /CE driving of the RAM simply doesn't work and I am too lazy to find out why.

 

Hmm, that's not a good sign. It sounds like you have either a timing problem or a contention somewhere. Have you tried this in many 2600s? If it's a timing problem and you haven't tried it in several you may be in for some nasty surprises. I have seen some 2600's whose oscillators had jitter of almost 25% of the full cycle!

 

but that will give us the possibility to use 128K of RAM for VCS PROGRAMMING !!!  

 

Yes, but are you going to supply simple fixed carts using the same format? Otherwise I have a feeling most programmers will shy away from it because they can't release it in cart format. (And yes, Andrew seems to be the exception to this trend.)

 

The real expensive parts are the CPLD, the µC and of course the PCB.  

The PCB costs will drop significantly if you make these in quantity.

 

The MAX232 + caps is less than 1 Euro at my supplier.

That's a really good price. But I think the MC1489 can be had for less than $0.20.

 

Can you give me a hint how you have started to program FPGAs. Did you buy some Evaluation Board ?

 

No, I just created a device that used them and had the smarts to do in system programming of them. Put it together and let it go. (The details needed to program them is available in the manufacturer's literature.)

 

And how do you handle these SMD parts. I think they are a pain.

 

I pretty much don't handle them. I leave that to professionals. Those with skills can hand solder leaded SMD parts in a few seconds - it's amazing. Quantity orders are best handled using a stencil and solder paste setup though.

 

I am very impressed by your CC2.

 

Thanks! (Shameless plug - 9 more days until the preorder window closes.)

 

Chad

[ianoid]

Some name ideas:

 

The Cablecart

 

Connect-A-Cart

 

Stellawire

 

Flashcart

 

Bushcart (for Nolan Bushnell!)

 

Krokocart

 

The Brewpub

 

The Brewcart

 

or

 

Spacemaster X-7

[Kroko]

Why the  symbol? I was only clarifying my reference.

Ups ... Is this symbol negative ? I thought it looks if somebody is thinking about something. No offense :-)

 

The 2600 is generally fairly tolerant of doing bad things to it

Yes, thats also what I heard, also because everything is NMOS

 

Hmm, that's not a good sign. ... Have you tried this in many 2600s?

Yes, I have quite a few :-) But I will send a few prototypes to other people to test it a bit better. I really think I made some other mistake.

However I will check this again.

Yes, but are you going to supply simple fixed carts using the same format?

Well I didn't think about that. But in theory, I could make a write protected device without serial transmission capabilities and fixed bs scheme. Wouldn't be much less expensive though .....

I thought more in the direction of impressive effects than in homebrew cart releases ....

 

The Cablecart  

The Brewcart  

 

Hey those 2 are cool ! Thank you

[Blackbird]

Awesome! I was hoping a device would be released like this... surprising, I might know of an application where I would need a few K of RAM.

 

For a name suggestion, I'd give:

 

the Hitchhiker's Cart or the Krikkit Cart

 

Why? It sounds cool! ...well, there was an explanation to go along with it, but it doesn't really make much sense in hindsight...

[Kroko]

ANY suggestions are welcome ....

 

what exactly is "Krikkit" ??

[Paul Slocum]

Yes, but are you going to supply simple fixed carts using the same format?  Otherwise I have a feeling most programmers will shy away from it because they can't release it in cart format.  (And yes, Andrew seems to be the exception to this trend.)

 

Yup, the Supercharger has been around forever with lotsa RAM sitting there, but hardly anybody wants to do anything with it for the same reason.

 

-paul

[Blackbird]

Krikkit is a planet from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I was trying to think of something even partially related to "big" in a small "space", and for some reason, the thought of the universal game of Cricket in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, played with planets themselves instead of balls, came to mind. That was actually brought up in a totally unrelated subject to the planet Krikkit, but anyhow... the name sounded cool, "Krikkit Cart". And of course, that led me to the title of the book, "Hitchhiker's".

 

...also, if you do decide to make a 3F+ scheme, then it might be best to make it flexible for programmers who would want to use it. Just a thought, but maybe you could have the addresses $3C and $3D select the bank for the first 2k, and $3E and $3F select the scheme for the second 2k, which is normally hardwired. If anyone didn't want to use it in their games, they wouldn't have to, and if somebody wanted to take advantage of the extra power, it'd be available.

[Kroko]

Just a thought, but maybe you could have the addresses

$3C and $3D select the bank for the first 2k, and $3E and $3F select the scheme for the second 2k, which is normally hardwired.  

 

Ah... let me think ... you want to extend it so that both banks can be either RAM or ROM. Adam had mentioned something like this on the stella list, though it was a bit different. I will see if there is enough space in the CPLD to make it that complicated. But in general I like your idea :-)

[+Andrew Davie]

This is the first version of my flash-cartridge prototype:

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to let everyone know this thing actually exists; I got mine in the mail today Awesome, the thing fits entirely within a standard '2600 cart... 512KB on-board, including 3F bankswitching... I'm in heaven!

 

Very nice piece of work.

[maibock]

This is the first version of my flash-cartridge prototype:

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to let everyone know this thing actually exists; I got mine in the mail today Awesome, the thing fits entirely within a standard '2600 cart... 512KB on-board, including 3F bankswitching... I'm in heaven!

 

Very nice piece of work.

 

wha?? err? uhhh? how did you get one? We want one!!

[Kroko]

I have ordered 3 prototype PCBs. I sent the first to Andrew.

One I will keep myself to go on with the development.

 

I will wait until I get the first feedback from Andrew how

well it works. But if it works, then there is still one prototype

I could send to whoever is willing to pay for an unfinished

product and is willing to do some testing.

 

It will NOT support RAM and it comes without label and

manual. (a real prototype :-))

 

I still need a cool name or you will be in great danger that

it will be called Krokodile Cart ...

 

Kroko.

[Gateway]

...I still need a cool name or you will be in great danger that

it will be called Krokodile Cart ...  

 

Kroko.

 

Definition taken from the Web:

 

Carte Blanche (French). A blank cheque signed by the giver, but left to be filled in by the receiver, with a sum of money drawn on the bank-account of the giver. Power to act at discretion in an affair placed under your charge.

 

So, how 'bout:

 

Cart Blanche,

 

with or without the e ( you decide )

 

In a distant second, I suggest this definition:

 

Magna Charta: The Great Charter of English liberty extorted from King John, 1215...

 

So, call it the: MAGNACART-A, or something along those lines.

 

 

This device definitely looks useful! Keep up the good work!

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

How about

- "KKK" (Kroko's Kraut Kart)

- "Gröcaz" (Größte Cart aller Zeiten)

- "Dicke Berta"

- "Mega/2 Cart"

- "S-Class Cart"

- ...

 

j/k

[maibock]

I could send to whoever is willing to pay for an unfinished

product and is willing to do some testing.  

 

It will NOT support RAM and it comes without label and

manual. (a real prototype :-))

 

I still need a cool name or you will be in great danger that

it will be called Krokodile Cart ...  

 

Kroko.

 

I'd love to test it your you, but it might be best to have someone with a bit more technical knowledge give it a whirl, since all I'd do would be to just play games with it

[Happy_Dude]

I'd also love to test it. P.M me a price if you can't find anyone better

And Put me down for a pre-order

 

O.k, How about calling it .... Atari Lab

[Kroko]

Hey thanks for the cool names ....don't stop thinking

 

I will fix a few bugs in the commander software before I send out

the second prototype. It needs to be a tester in the "NTSC" world

because I need some NTSC feedback ...

 

I don't accept preorders, because it is still a bit too early for that.

The next prototype run will still be only 2 or 3 devices....

 

I will keep you informed ...

 

Kroko

[Mord]

I'd also love to test it. P.M me a price if you can't find anyone better

And Put me down for a pre-order

 

O.k, How about calling it .... Atari Lab

 

I'd add a Deluxe after that if I had any say in it.

 

 

--

Mord

ookee, let's just put off getting an xbox a few more months.

[DeV0]

Clearly this stunning device should be called "The cartridge Family", well, either that or "the slot blaster"

[ajaxlex]

Kroko,

have you considered selling this in kit form for penniless hobbyists? You could also 'license' the design to others who could manufacture it and sell more copies. Seems like there is a lot of demand, but manufacturing time and unit price are the limiters.

[vb_master]

But if it works, then there is still one prototype

I could send to whoever is willing to pay for an unfinished

product and is willing to do some testing.  

.

How much does one of those cost for one of those unfinished products? How much testing?