Bryan Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I can't understand why people bash pacman! as kids I don't remember anyone complaining or even noticing the difference to the arcade. For us it was pacman as it should be. I remember the day my best friend brought it home from Sears. Even as kids we were pretty disappointed. We'd played a lot of PacMan in the arcade, and the 2600 version just felt slow and weird and didn't give us our 'fix'. If you pretended it wasn't PacMan, then I guess it was okay for a while. Why it matters is that it makes people think twice before buying their next game which leads to big market crashes apparently. -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 I can't understand why people bash pacman! as kids I don't remember anyone complaining or even noticing the difference to the arcade. Maybe you should create a new thread about why you liked Pac-Man. Everyone I knew thought Pac-Man sucked, but I played it anyway for a while since my parents payed full price for it as soon as it came out. If I remember right, we pre-ordered it. I was a teen when it came out, so if you were 5 years old or something like that, I can understand how you wouldn't mind the poor quality. We were disappointed because we saw a demo of Pac-Man on the Atari 400 (or 800) at Woolco and thought it might at least look similar, but it looked nothing like it. I think that computer version looked the same as the 5200 version that came out later. We also hated the stupid sounds they used in the game. The whole thing was poorly done. Ms. Pac-Man was an improvement, but even that could have been better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrock1977 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I remember getting ET out of a big bin for a buck at Gaynes here in Burlington, back when they were clearing out games. I actually really liked it. My sister and I made a wipe off map which we could right on with earaser markers to track where the stuff was ( dorky, yes, but it worked.) It was probably my favorite game next to dark chambers, and mountain king (purchased at the same Gaynes store) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Ms. Pac-Man was an improvement, but even that could have been better. How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 How? How do you think? You should be able to come up with "how" on your own. Even back then, some companies were making games that looked better than the blocky, flickering crap that Atari usually cranked out. Haven't you noticed how many games by Atari were primitive looking compared to games made by a few other companies? Have you seen some of the hacks of recent years? Sure, they have more time now to play around improving games with no pressure and time limits, but it shows that many games could have been better. That shouldn't be hard to understand. There's almost always a way a game could have been better. Here's a related quote: A computer is a computer and it only works in one way. If something new comes up, it's cute, but no more than that, because it's something the computer has always been able to do; you just didn't discover it before. It's like finding a penny under the couch, it's always been there, but it's cute to discover."--Bob Whitehead (adapted) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 So in other words, you have no idea how. Ms. Pac-Man uses a smart sprite multiplexing routine for the ghosts. This is the best the 2600 can do when forced to deal with multiple free-moving objects. The only way to eliminate ghost flicker would be to restrict the ghosts from ever horizontally intersecting. This massively affects gameplay, so is not an acceptable solution for an arcade port. Ms. Pac-Man uses the playfield for the dots and maze. With the sprites already used, the playfield is the only way for the 2600 to cover the screen with a maze pattern and represent horizontal rows of dots. Furthermore, the only way to have the dots a different color from the maze is to not display the maze on the same line as the dots. This is an aesthetic call-- to gain white dots you have to give up solid maze walls. It seems like you've observed some Atari games significantly improved, and concluded that therefore ALL Atari games can be significantly improved. If this isn't a perfect example of specious logic, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 It seems like you've observed some Atari games significantly improved, and concluded that therefore ALL Atari games can be significantly improved. If this isn't a perfect example of specious logic, I don't know what is. So, you are saying that the game could not have been improved in any way? If Activision did it or another company, it wouldn't have had a more pleasing look? There was absolutely no way to add more memory to the cartridge or do something else that might have improved the game? I don't have to be an Atari 2600 programmer to know that almost any game can be improved in at least some small way. Do you run around with a little cape on and call yourself "Logic Man"? Do you roam thousands of message boards every day looking for people to argue with over trivial things? This is a forum where people post opinions, it's not a freakin' logic class where your teacher will give you a gold star every time you find a tiny thing to jump on. With enough time, money, talent, and imagination, every game ever made for any system could have been improved in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Do you run around with a little cape on and call yourself "Logic Man"? Do you roam thousands of message boards every day looking for people to argue with over trivial things? This is a forum where people post opinions, it's not a freakin' logic class where your teacher will give you a gold star every time you find a tiny thing to jump on. This has to be the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Jesus, cavelevel, get a grip. You stated unambiguously that Ms. Pac-Man could have been better. I, intrigued by your confidence, innocuously inquired how this might be achieved. You then responded with a bunch of hand-waving, "Of course we could make it better now... because... this is... THE FUTURE!" (cue dramatic lightning and thunder) Why don't you actually identify some things about Ms. Pac-Man which you thought were sub-par? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Jesus, cavelevel, get a grip. Me get a grip? You're the one who is going on and on about Ms. Pac-Man as if you were the programmer and were upset by my throw-away comment. What's the solution to making any game better? The generic things for any game would be to improve your programming skills (find more tricks), improve the graphics, improve the sound, improve gameplay (if needed), and if you can't do any of that the way things are, add more memory to the cartridge so you can (if you have the money). Why don't you actually identify some things about Ms. Pac-Man which you thought were sub-par? Why don't you play the original arcade game then play the 2600 version and see what you think? Would adding more memory to the cartridge back then help the game to look a little better? This thread is about E.T., not Pac-Man or Ms. Pac-Man, so if you think Ms. Pac-Man is perfect and could not have been improved in any way, why don't you create a new thread about it? You can talk about the game in excruciatingly minute detail and discuss why it's illogical to think that anything else could have been done to make the game better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Sooo... then there's nothing specific about Ms. Pac-Man that you'd like to see improved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Sooo... then there's nothing specific about Ms. Pac-Man that you'd like to see improved? You are correct Logic Man. Your super-logic powers have convinced me that Ms. Pac-Man on the Atari 2600 is the greatest game ever made. It is so perfect that it makes me both cry and crap my pants at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Actually it was a question, not a statement. Your reluctance to elaborate on your opinion of Ms. Pac-Man is intriguing. Your histrionics are also intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Sooo... then there's nothing specific about Ms. Pac-Man that you'd like to see improved? You are correct Logic Man. Your super-logic powers have convinced me that Ms. Pac-Man on the Atari 2600 is the greatest game ever made. It is so perfect that it makes me both cry and crap my pants at the same time. Heck, I'm crapping my pants just reading this! New topic: What 2600 games produce the messiest pants? -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Sooo... then there's nothing specific about Ms. Pac-Man that you'd like to see improved? I'd like the cartridge to have a fresh floral scent. Also, I'd like a hidden marshmallow compartment for SECRET EATING! -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I'd like the cartridge to have a fresh floral scent. Also, I'd like a hidden marshmallow compartment for SECRET EATING! MMMmmmmm marshmallow...... And my laptop gets warm enough to make smores. Anyone up for "emulation night" at Warren's? Bring the graham crackers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Modern laptops get hot enough to burninate marshmallows. Better to stick with Bronco Trolleys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 New topic: What 2600 games produce the messiest pants? That is a good topic. Actually it was a question, not a statement. Your reluctance to elaborate on your opinion of Ms. Pac-Man is intriguing. Your histrionics are also intriguing. You know what is intriguing? Your reluctance to drop the subject. I'm not going to put in Ms. Pac-Man right now to refresh my memory about every little thing I didn't like about it just to satisfy you. I'm slowly creating a list of my favorite Atari 2600 games and look what's on the list: E.T., Adventure, Stargate (Defender II), Starmaster, Othello, Video Chess, Subterranea, Laser Gates, Ms. Pac-Man, Lock 'N' Chase, Midnight Magic, Solar Fox, Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator, Enduro, Yars' Revenge, Demon Attack, Marauder, Circus Atari, Carnival, Bank Heist, Beamrider, Mountain King, Berzerk, Boing, Commando Raid... It's one of my favorite games, but like most Atari games, I say it could have looked better. If the game needed more memory to accomplish that and the price of the game wouldn't have gone up too much, then they should have added more memory. Can you climb off of my back now and put the monkey back up there? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricDeLee Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Great discussion about ET. Hmmm... I wonder if they added memory to it if they could have added better details. seriously.... Personally... I think two people got a little worked up over a 20 year old game. Start of conversation: Mrs. PacMan could look better/be a better game. Next portion of conversation: Pray tell... how do you suppose they could have made it look better? Further in the conversation: Damn it, Cape Man! Use your logic and look at the arcade version compared to this. Don't make me rip off your neck and puke down your own throat just so you can obviously figure out the feel and texture of my stomach acids as opposed to yours. I think you should both move on... the conversation is out of hand and frankly: STUPID!!!!!!! One person simply stated a game could be better (DUH... you are right... it doesn't take a Logic Man wearing a flashy cape nor an Atari 2600 programmer to figure that out). The other simply wanted to know: if you were to make it better: HOW? Then of course it got out of hand after that. Both of you are adults (at least I hope so or even this post will never be seen with dult eyes and reasoning)... now plug the freaking joystick back in its port and battle it out in a good game of Combat. Just for crying out loud promise not to reach for the Mrs. Pacman cart!!!!! Eric DeLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I think you should both move on... the conversation is out of hand and frankly: STUPID!!!!!!! Oh yeah? Well how would you make this conversation better?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterb23 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Oh yeah? Well how would you make this conversation better?!?!? Well, there's always the ignore button... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricDeLee Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 SHUSH! I'm not wanting to put on my Logic Man Cape and prance around my living room in my underoos (Yes... I said underoos. Scooby Doo!) just to find a way to make this conversation better. lol Boy!!! Don't make me whip out my joystick. Err.. uh... wait. I don't think I like the direction this conversation is heading! lol (The man that likes the Cubs is talking about using an ignore button... the nerve he has! LOL.... Please read that as a joke. Hell... I like the Diamondbacks, SD Chargers, Buffalo Bills, and I still believe Nebraska will win the NCAA football Championship this year. So I really have nothing to bash the Cubs about! In fact... I'm hoping they make it to the playoffs. My guilty fantasy: Cubs vs Boston in the World Series. Now That would be nice.) By the way... the Cubs COULD be better. I mean, I'm not going to elabarate or anything... but they could be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 ON TOPIC... I really didn't like ET. It could have been better. It ticked players off right from the start with those pits. If Atari had replaced the MsPacMan graphic with ET and released that, it would have been better. ET in PacLand!! If Atari had kidnapped a young Paul Slocum and forced him to work on 2600 games, Atari would be the only videogame company left in the world today. :) -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaXpress Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 ET was a rush job, more or less a revision of the Raiders code from what I've heard. Atari needed to crap out a game to hit the shelves for Xmas and they got what should be expected. To HSW's credit he did attempt to do some ambitious new things, his artistic vision is to be commended but the execution was a failure. The kids who wanted an ET game tended to be quite young, the 13 year olds had other things on their mind. Young kids did not want an adventure game, they wanted something simple. They also didn't want to fall into pits all day. Atari also screwed themselves by jacking up the price of the cart. ET was the first console game with a $49.99 retail price, unheard of at the time. MAD magazine ran a back cover which featured the cart box, a $50 price tag, and ET's finger touching the tag while he says "ouch." Soemone please find this magazine. A lot of parents were not going to drop fifty bucks on a game, and those who did saw that their kids didn't play it after the first week. That's the last time they'll pay so much for a game, and perhaps some decided to shy away from full-priced games altogether. Everyone loves to hate ZylonBane, but he was absolutely correct about a few points. He said that classic consoles were not up to the task of producing decent RPGs. Absolutely true. Sword and sorcery fantasy was an extremely hot seller in the early 80s. The Atari just couldn't deliver, Intellivision's RPGs were weak (did Cloudy Mountain have ANYTHING to do with D&D? That license was unnecesary to the game), and then there's Odyssey which scored a hit by creating a huge RPG package, using gameboard and pieces to make up for the system's weakness. To those who say that RPGs just didn't sell, look at what was happening in the PC world. Ultima, Apshai, Wizardry, many other franchises were selling. Many people bought PCs just to get these RPGs. I guess no one ever enjoyed a game of Rogue back then either. To say that the genre wasn't marketable until the PS1 days is ludicrous. The consoles offered shitty RPGs and that is why they didn't sell. As far as the "Ms.Pac-Man should be better" detour, Zylon was right again. Could Ms.Pac-Man have really been improved with existing technology? Sure Atari could have added a 64K chip or second processor or a magic elf who makes the "waka waka" sound, but who the hell would pay a hundred dollars or more for the cart? ET already flopped at $50. And adding RAM doesnt change the process by which the 2600 creates graphics. The 2600 has some solid limitations as Zylon pointed out. If people wanted a version of MsPac-Man that exceeds the 2600's abilities perhaps they could have purchased the 5200 version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Siegler Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Everyone I knew thought Pac-Man sucked, but I played it anyway for a while since my parents payed full price for it as soon as it came out. Funny you say that. I did the same thing with Pac_man because my Mother went out and bought it for us as a suprise the day it came out. I always felt bad about that, and to this day I still do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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