Sheddy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 ( 5 posts to go for emkay) Belonging to the posting-counter? Now one less Weren't the pillars from Encounter PM graphics too? It always looked like that to me. It's graphics 7 (antic d). The only overlay is in the "aiming square cursor". Encounter - one of all time Atari faves - first time I saw it I just thought WOW!, gotta buy this game! Much more impressive that Dimension X IMO. I always thought at least some of the clouds could be PM graphics - they look the right kind of blocky (streched across) - that would seem a good use of them for this game - never checked though I agree with Emkay and analmux that Antic 5 is certainly an interesting possiblity for a semi-3d Wolf style engine. But think there would be some pretty complex issues for the engine to handle if PM underlays for background/walls etc. especially them not being able to be full width of screen. Think that's probably why people steered away from that idea. Better off using them for enemies or players weapons (like normal games )? Maybe it could be made to work though. Also there'd have to be a fair amount of characters left over for redefining the enemies if they were Antic 5 characters (how big the enemy is at closest range). and if you want more than 1 enemy on screen at once that multiplies it up and complicates things. Still, it'd be nice if somebody puts something together to try and outdo Mood (which is still pretty darn impressive for an 8-bit machine). [/u][/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 16, 2004 Author Share Posted May 16, 2004 Encounter - one of all time Atari faves - first time I saw it I just thought WOW!, gotta buy this game! Much more impressive that Dimension X IMO. Encounter does have a "depth map". So the collisions are not done by HW-collision dectection, they are done by software. That is the difference to all other "3D" action games on the A8. When running backwards against a pillar you don't see it. When rotating the vehicle, the pillar is positional always at the right "distance" and "size". The "shoots" are reflected always in the correct degree (impact & reflect). And when moving, you have to check the distance to the enemy and correct the fireing angle. This game is unique on the A8 and technically even more better than the Lucasfilm 3D-Engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Encounter - one of all time Atari faves - first time I saw it I just thought WOW!, gotta buy this game! Much more impressive that Dimension X IMO. Encounter does have a "depth map". So the collisions are not done by HW-collision dectection, they are done by software. That is the difference to all other "3D" action games on the A8. When running backwards against a pillar you don't see it. When rotating the vehicle, the pillar is positional always at the right "distance" and "size". The "shoots" are reflected always in the correct degree (impact & reflect). And when moving, you have to check the distance to the enemy and correct the fireing angle. This game is unique on the A8 and technically even more better than the Lucasfilm 3D-Engines. oops - I meant to say Encounter is much more impressive than Dimension X IMO. But the edits are not working today - lots of spelling mistakes etc! the lucasfilm games all had a proper depth-map - eg firing in fractalus took longer to get to a target the further away you were - and the mountain movement as you bank and turn is very impressive. agree the enemies on eidolon are not scaled based on distance or for firing at - but the fireballs and cave is again very impressive and accurate - guess they ran out of memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 16, 2004 Author Share Posted May 16, 2004 oops - I meant to say Encounter is much more impressive than Dimension X IMO. But the edits are not working today - lots of spelling mistakes etc! So I understood right the lucasfilm games all had a proper depth-map - eg firing in fractalus took longer to get to a target the further away you were - and the mountain movement as you bank and turn is very impressive. agree the enemies on eidolon are not scaled based on distance or for firing at - but the fireballs and cave is again very impressive and accurate - guess they ran out of memory. It was my intention to explain why Encounter is the first (and best) candidate that used all substantial features for a 3D Ego shooting game.... nothing else. And it is pretty fast anyway... I think that the Pillars are used only to save memory. They are scaled from "one" pixel up to 3/4 of the Game screen and you allways have a smooth 360°-scrolling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 .....makes me wonder.... What games have to be done for A8 ??? -Super Mario -Sonic the Hedgehog -Zelda -Turrican -Wolfenstein -Vector (!!!) ??? +++ -Barbarian -Bubble Bobble -Impossible Mission -Maniac Mansion -Test Drive -The Last Ninja (series) -Out Run -Wizball -ZakMcKracken ... and many more :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 It was my intention to explain why Encounter is the first (and best) candidate that used all substantial features for a 3D Ego shooting game.... nothing else. I don't recall shooting any "Egos" in Encounter. Anyway, Star Raiders is even more 3D than Encounter, and came out far earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 -Barbarian It's already done' date=' at least 1st part. Didn't you see this game for Atari 8-bit that was released by Polish firm AVALON ???? About MARIO.... Analmux, check out this . It's another version of this game, for Windows system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 -Barbarian It's already done, at least 1st part. Didn't you see this game for Atari 8-bit that was released by Polish firm AVALON ???? Every answer belonging to this game may look like an insult.... So I don't want to give an answer to this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 Anyway, Star Raiders is even more 3D than Encounter, and came out far earlier. You are shure of what you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hmm... Maybe "Midnight Resistance" or "Contra", some of "Eye of the Beholder" ones... Lotus Turbo Esprit (at least one part) and some others... analmux: I see it was a kind of provocation, bcoz there were so many interesting topics - too bad that almost 100% of them got forgoten... No shame about it??? Greetz anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Emkay - you are, undoubtely, perfectionist... As for me, I used to atari version of BARBARIAN (on arenas).... I vote for doing "CABAL" for the XL/XE. There was so wonderfully C64 port of this shooter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Anyway, Star Raiders is even more 3D than Encounter, and came out far earlier. You are shure of what you are talking about? I'm as sure as I am intelligible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I vote for doing "CABAL" for the XL/XE. There was so wonderfully C64 port of this shooter... - Najemnik - Najemnik II (Powrót) - Czarny Orzeł Mało??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Sorry - i meant that these games are not too bad substitutes of CABAL (i think at least) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I vote for doing "CABAL" for the XL/XE. There was so wonderfully C64 port of this shooter... - Najemnik - Najemnik II (Powrót) - Czarny Orzeł Mało??? At once I see, you either didn't see CABAL on C64 or just don't know what are u talking about. "NAJEMNIK" series differ from "CABAL" even in their appearance: there is a hero in CABAL while "NAJEMNIK" is FPP (hehehe ) there is different story. I've never seen so nice and perfect "3rd person" shooter for A8 yet. Even if that's not the best C64 such shooter, I like it very much. "CZARNY ORZEL" looks shitty IMHO. CABAL ingame screenshot: [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Ok... then what about making a bit of (hehehe) FPP game??? Dracon: ....... you know what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Interesting discussion. However, I doubt possibility of creating fast 3D engine in high resolution. The reason? No enough CPU cycles. In 9+ resolution (64x48 pixels = 32x48 bytes=1536 bytes) it is possible to do a 1-frame effect that consumes ca 15 cycles per byte. For a 2-frame effect, that means we have ca. 30 cycles per byte. To fill high res 128x96 (3072 bytes) in 2 frames you would need to have code that renders one byte in ca. 15 cycles. I find it almost impossible, even without textures. Just recall classical demos displaying rotating filled cube - it was always at least few frames (except for 1-frame vectors in Numen). For more complex objects it gets hopeless. Not to mention, if you're going for HIP/TIP, you waste much more CPU power on GFX mode maintenance. I think for successfull product what you really need is high framerate - a 2-frame (25fps) preferably, 5 frames in the worst case algorithms. Otherwise what fun is that? I believe it is possible to do Asskicker-like graphics in 2/3/4 frames, with full rotation.. In fact, during watching Spain-Russia game I think I invented the way to do it in 2/3 frames Trick is, Asskicker is a very simple engine - 90 degree walls, no doors, no windows etc, one viewing angle, one head height. I don't know if it's possible to go closer to a wall or do you have to be in a corridor. Numen on the other hand, supports doors, windows, any shape of walls (as long as they are vertical), bitmap enemies, looking up-down, going up-down, stairs and so on. Just like DukeNukem3D It can be quick but only with a small and simple area to render, like in second part of Vector in Numen. So, my advise - go for something simple yet entertaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 cze my friend eru... now most of Taquart coders are here @ atariage as well... fox & eru are the most talented atari8bit coders i know of... (yes...coders.....) let's see on tuesday...how your interim home country will be defeated by german soccer... (yes...my american friends...soccer rules... not like this strange games like football & baseball... only basket ball i'll accept as sports... ;) just kidding... i had some drinks watching spain vs. russia...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 12, 2004 Author Share Posted June 12, 2004 Interesting discussion. However' date=' I doubt possibility of creating fast 3D engine in high resolution. The reason? No enough CPU cycles.[/quote'] No one is talking about Hi-Res for a "reliable" 3D-engine on the A8. Antic Mode 5 is one of the lowest resolutions to handle. But you can change the look of every Block (Char)... Optimized for the A8 HW would be: Character-movements in Antic-mode 5 Building a "coarse" fillroutine for the angle of view... Fill one char and all other "same"-chars on the screen will be filled with the same "texture"... This will save a huge amount of CPU cycles. - less cycle stealing because of the double-scanline mode - changing one char is changing more than "8 bytes" on the screen. For some graphical enhancement, one may just try to "underlay" PM-Graphics in blocks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 emkay...are you thinking of AR:the dungeon type & bards tale type of engine or like doom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 No one is talking about Hi-Res for a "reliable" 3D-engine on the A8. Antic Mode 5 is one of the lowest resolutions to handle. But you can change the look of every Block (Char)... 160x100 is a pretty damn high resolution for anything that moves in 3D. But it was great for Zybex Building a "coarse" fillroutine for the angle of view... Fill one char and all other "same"-chars on the screen will be filled with the same "texture"... Well' date=' when I see a 3D scene I don't see any 'chunks' of screen that are duplicated - hence, no font reuse is really possible. If you want to be precise of course. Could you maybe draw what you mean? i had some drinks watching spain vs. russia same here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 eru... we are discussing this kind of effecs since more than a year...so emkay might forgot to mention his concept arts... a quick search i found this "gate" pic in the g2f thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...r=asc&start=225 http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44414 maybe emkay can remember where everything started? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 btw... eru... maybe you can meet analmux - another talented atari8bit coder who is from the netherlands as well or maybe we all can meet there??? has been a while when i was in NL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Well' date=' when I see a 3D scene I don't see any 'chunks' of screen that are duplicated - hence, no font reuse is really possible. If you want to be precise of course. Could you maybe draw what you mean? [/quote'] Hm... you should read the whole Thread On the first Page you might find this Picture: I have created it in G2F as it might fit into Antic 5. The "Scene" uses 117 chars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Hm... you should read the whole Thread I surely did Anyway' date=' the scene you draw is a bit of extreme - imagine now you turn 10 degrees left. What can you reuse? Very little. And if you put textures on the walls, it gets even worse. But probably I don't get something btw... eru... maybe you can meet analmux - another talented atari8bit coder who is from the netherlands as well or maybe we all can meet there??? has been a while when i was in NL... Sure Problem is, I can't invite you to my place to stay overnight - I'm now living in a pretty small room and at the very moment looking for something bigger. But if you want to drop by for let's say one day (I think it's not that far from Germany) - you're welcome And Hilversum (Analmux's place) isn't far. BTW - I meet Fox here tomorrow as he'll be in Amsterdam for few hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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