NovaXpress Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I'm noticing that we don't all tolerate that 2600 "flicker" effect equally. I was just reading how some of the kids can't play Wizard Of Wor due to the flicker. I've seen similar complaints about other games being "unplayable" because of all the blinking. Myself, I was never bothered by this or even noticed it in games until it was pointed out to me. It's simply not an issue. And there are others who feel that same way. Any theories as to whether this is due to physical reasons? That our optic nerves are wired differently or whatever and therefore we percieve the flickering in a different way? Or is it simply a matter of personal taste, and we either tolerate the flicker or we don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Try playing Spider Maze then tell me you're not bothered by the flicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjk7382 Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I can tollerate stuff like on frogger and ms pacman, but I think that pacman is unplayable because the main enemy flickers the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze_ro Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Back when I was in university, I was taking a class on optoelectronics, and in one of the labs, we were doing stuff with a small LCD screen. The idea was that you'd feed a square wave into the LCD, turning it on and off, over and over again... you'd then alter the frequency, and eventually, you'd get to a point where you wouldn't be able to tell that the LCD was turning off at all because your eye couldn't keep up with the speed of the changes. I think this was called the critical fusion frequency or something. Anyways, each of us doing the lab came up with a different frequency... generally somewhere between 40-60Hz... I don't know whether it's a genetic thing, or whether it's from all the video games I play, but the fusion frequency for my eyes was a LOT lower than everyone elses... I think I was even in the high 30's. In any case, I consider that a good thing. It makes me a lot more tolerant to things like flicker and low frame rates and such. You're right though, it definitely depends (at least to some degree) on the person and their eyes. --Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaXpress Posted April 27, 2004 Author Share Posted April 27, 2004 Try playing Spider Maze then tell me you're not bothered by the flicker pacman is unplayable because the main enemy flickers the whole time. And yet I have no problem with either. I know that there's flicker if I look for it, but one I start playing I truly don't even seem to see it. That's some fascinating stuff, Ze_ro, exactly what I was wondering about. My "fusion frequency" has got to be on the low side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Hi there! That's some fascinating stuff, Ze_ro, exactly what I was wondering about. My "fusion frequency" has got to be on the low side as well. Hm... buy yourself a copy of Fight Club and check how often you get to see Tyler Durden - before they meet in the plane... Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Try playing Spider Maze then tell me you're not bothered by the flicker pacman is unplayable because the main enemy flickers the whole time. And yet I have no problem with either. I know that there's flicker if I look for it, but one I start playing I truly don't even seem to see it. That's some fascinating stuff, Ze_ro, exactly what I was wondering about. My "fusion frequency" has got to be on the low side as well. I'd love to see what your top score is. I've only made it past the first board because I can't tell which blur is the real enemy. There aren't any other Atari games where the flicker bothers me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I'm taking this thread right OT but my vote for "The Best Use Of Flicker In A 2600 Game" goes to the girl's nipples in X-Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaXpress Posted April 27, 2004 Author Share Posted April 27, 2004 So, a "low critical fusion frequency" pretty much means that you get trails off of light. So that's why I had so much fun at raves. Hm... buy yourself a copy of Fight Club and check how often you get to see Tyler Durden - before they meet in the plane... That's no joke, I have to slow down DVDs to catch such moments. I never thought about the reason before, just figured I was being oblivious. I can play Pac-Man or Spider Maze until I get bored, which doesn't take very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukasa Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 The LCD flickering was (and still is) applied with LCD shutterglasses like the ones for the master system and the Vectrex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I'm taking this thread right OT but my vote for "The Best Use Of Flicker In A 2600 Game" goes to the girl's nipples in X-Man. Actually yknow when it comes to flicker.. that may have annoyed me somewhat in the olden days (especially when the newer consoles started to come out). But now, it's actually part of the charm for me for a lot of 2600 games. If it's not there, then good. But if it is.. that's fine too most of the time. So flicker away I say.. flicker flicker flicker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukasa Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Yeah, the flicker doesn't really bother me at all, but I guess that people with a very high fusion frequency are the main reason that there are warnings on games about having an epilleptic seizure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisbid Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 slowdown on the NES and SNES bother me more than flicker on the 2600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 slowdown on the NES and SNES bother me more than flicker on the 2600 I agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindfield Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Oddly enough, I'm really sensitive to flicker. (I can't stand a 60Hz refresh rate on my desktop, it's gotta be 75Hz or higher) On the other hand the flicker in these games never really bothered me. Frankly, I just took it as a given that this was the way that games were and there was nothing to be done about it, so you just adjust your playing to accomodate it. Then again, low frame rates in modern games don't really bother me much either -- unless we're talking 15-20FPS. Then it gets annoying. Actually, I recently had to replace the fan on my video card because the old one died and the card was overheating (and causing nasty polygon errors in D3D/OGL games). I tested out a few games after replacing the fan. Besides everything working good, I was playing some FPS thing (can't remember which) and realized that some games at 60FPS are actually a little disconcerting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I was so distraught by the use of flickering in the Holiday Greeting Cart that I threw out my copy. (see "Australian humor" under another recent thread) Seriously, the Chronocolour Technology as well as Paul's RPG demo convinced me beyond any doubt that flickering brings worthwhile results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I am very sensitive to flicker. My CRT needs to have 85Hz before I don't notice flicker any longer. But I suppose there is a difference between the whole screen constantly flickering an only selected objects flickering. E.g. I have no problems with sprites flickering at 30Hz constantly, IMO flicker that is going on and off is more annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kialan Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 As long as I can tell that the moving object is there and what it is, I have no problem with flicker. After all, they're just ghosts! ROFL Nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi there! Well, I never had any troubles with the ghosts in pacman or any other games with somewhat constant 30Hz or 20 Hz flicker, but in Wizard of Wor I can actually see the sprites explicitely turning on and off, every single one of them and all at once and with different intervals. Which gets extremely annoying, getting worse every minute I'm playing it. I never had an epilleptic seizure, but I guess in situations like these I'm probably getting close? But there's things way worse. Playing some N64 games or first gen. 3dfx titles like Descent makes me vomit within 10 minutes. Really! Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian M Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Honestly, when playing a game like Wizard of Wor on a real Atari system, the flicker isn't too bad. But when I play the same game via an emulator, the flickering is more noticeable and pronounced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisper Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Oh I don't mind. I only play Atari games on the original console. As long as it's just the sprites and not the whole screen, that would drive me nuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
128bytes Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Honestly, when playing a game like Wizard of Wor on a real Atari system, the flicker isn't too bad. But when I play the same game via an emulator, the flickering is more noticeable and pronounced. I haven't played Wizard of Wor on an emulator, but I had a nice 2 player session of it last night on my trusty 4-switch. My eyes are always more sore after playing Wizard of Wor than from playing games with less or no flicker. As a kid I remembered my eyes being more sore after playing Pac-Man than any other game. My flicker threshold is higher if gameplay is good, like Wizard of Wor, but I am grateful that most 2600 game designers tried to minimize or eliminate flicker altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 in Wizard of Wor I can actually see the sprites explicitely turning on and off, every single one of them and all at once and with different intervals. Which gets extremely annoying, getting worse every minute I'm playing it. Uhh... it kind of sounds like you're describing the monsters dissapearing.. which is what the enemies are supposed to do in Wizard of Wor? (just like the arcade game). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi there! Uhh... it kind of sounds like you're describing the monsters dissapearing.. which is what the enemies are supposed to do in Wizard of Wor? (just like the arcade game). I know how the game works. I'm talking about the flicker, not invisible/teleporting enemies. Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Uhh... it kind of sounds like you're describing the monsters dissapearing.. which is what the enemies are supposed to do in Wizard of Wor? (just like the arcade game). I don't think so. Manuel seemed to know the rules and the original very well when we tried to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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